I think these two bits are ultimately why Mulder's line doesn't bother me, at least not any more than Scully's does, you know? They're both being unreasonable, stiff and not a little bit unkind to each other in this scene, and all things considered, it does make sense that they'd reach a point like this in the work. I feel like there's so much, big and small, that's been leading up to this conversation. Oh, absolutely. I think his point sort of sounds harsher, but they both have unreasonable expectations. They're both stubborn, they both want to be right, and they're being unyielding. At this moment, they can't admit, or even recognize, the fact that agreeing with each other all the time would be horrible and they'd get nowhere.
Which I love! UGH, this episode. I say it every time I talk about it, but I adore that it uses the actual structure of four act television against the viewer, and I'm sure you know what I mean by that. It makes it all the more deliciously meta! And it's meta without being overly cute about it, meta without winking and saying, "here's some meta, aren't we so clever?" It's a legit X-File layered over a true character study.
And maybe that's why the placement of this episode is key? Because right on its heels is the Biogenesis trilogy (which I feel I'm in the minority for loving), which kind of puts the final nail in that coffin, in a way. And then of course, after that, S7 is just so much more relaxed. Do people dislike it? I mean, I don't watch it constantly or anything, because honestly, Fowley makes me tear my hair out, and I have no desire to watch her swanning around in a nightgown. But I like it for what it does, for where it gets us, if that makes sense. And like you say, if it puts the nail in the "TRUTH" coffin, that's what allows Mulder to get past that and able to move forward with Scully. I kind of believe that they might have doomed themselves had they tried to start a relationship before Mulder had gotten all of that out of his system.
I remember that too! I keep forgetting who originally said it, but it's one of my favorite theories. Sadly, this is the only time I think he reaches that moment again, and like you say, it's in a hallucination. One could argue they get there at the end of The Truth, but that's in a far more tragic way. I don't know who it was, but I'm pretty sure you told me about it, hee! I think there are certainly moments where they're sort of...plugged into the same wavelength and figuring out things simultaneously, but it's a very distinct thing, Scully believing and giving him that validation. I mean, you have to think that was part of the reason he put up with whatever was bad about Fowley, the fact that she agreed with him about this shit, you know? There is, whether we want to admit it or not, something powerful about someone agreeing with you. Still, I don't think it's that sad, because what he needs isn't a yes-woman, and even he seems to subconsciously know this later in the hallucination. Once Scully tells him he was right, he's like: wait. That's not right.
GLEE. And now that you point it out, I really do see the similarity between those two scenes! I know! I didn't notice it until today! And it's kind of lovely that he grows from getting that fulfillment/wonder from abducting an alien to getting it from his child in two years.
Which reminds me of "Contact High". Which I've reread so many times after watching this episode, they're practically indefinitely connected in my head. Is that crazy? At the end of the recap, I was almost like, "Now let's all go read Contact High!"
I don't think I'm the only one who feels that THIS is, in large part, what was missing from S8. Oh, I was DEFINITELY thinking about this, but I didn't get into it because I knew it would get me all angry and ranty. But it is frustrating to see Scully "not buying the party line" here, whereas when it ACTUALLY happens, she just...rolls over.
At this moment, they can't admit, or even recognize, the fact that agreeing with each other all the time would be horrible and they'd get nowhere. Yep, which is probably what makes the whole thing so amazing. The plot, the crazy-assed plot, gets them there! Oh, X-Files.
Do people dislike it? I suppose, like anything, it depends on who you ask, but I think I've run into more fans who dislike it than like it. I personally love it, particularly the scientific angle. It brings to light some really fascinating theories, at least for me. (Also, I'm one of the 3 people out there who doesn't hate Fowley, lol. So I imagine that helps a bit.)
I kind of believe that they might have doomed themselves had they tried to start a relationship before Mulder had gotten all of that out of his system. Oh, definitely. I feel like there were definitely opportunities for them to finally get their shit together, so to speak, throughout the course of the show, but when we actually got it really was the prime time. They both needed to be in the right place, first, particularly Mulder, given that his quest is at the center of what drives the narrative, at least most of the time.
There is, whether we want to admit it or not, something powerful about someone agreeing with you. Yes, definitely. Plus, I don't see Fowley as quite so simple as just being a yes-woman, you know? I'm actually rather fascinated by her, sometimes. I don't think that Mulder needs a yes-woman and nothing more either, though he can be rather needy when it comes to validation (though more emotionally than professionally, I feel), but by tragic I more just meant... the last time they're on the same page, truly, it's a rather tragic end. Hopeful, but still tragic (and I do see XF overall as a rather tragic story).
And it's kind of lovely that he grows from getting that fulfillment/wonder from abducting an alien to getting it from his child in two years. It's very lovely! But I can't think about that too much, because down the William Road lies heartbreak and madness.
Haha, "Contact High", somewhere along the line, just became my definitive post-ep reading for this one. It's just so good! (I love that she writes in Scully again ducking under Mulder's arm, by the way, just like in the episode.)
I don't blame you for trying to keep the S8 thoughts at bay, believe me! Honestly, I'm impressed you made any mention of S8 at all, because... well, yeah. We want to be thinking happy thoughts right now!
(Also, I'm one of the 3 people out there who doesn't hate Fowley, lol. So I imagine that helps a bit.) I dearly, dearly wish I could be mature and thoughtful, because I know that there are interesting things to be said about her character, but...I just can't! She makes me crazy! I've never grown out of my 17-year-old girl feelings about her, and seeing her on the screen makes me feel all punchy. I honestly think it's a weird fictional version of hating someone on behalf of your friend.
but when we actually got it really was the prime time. They both needed to be in the right place, first, particularly Mulder, given that his quest is at the center of what drives the narrative, at least most of the time. It's kind of weird, but when I think about it, I get the feeling that it wasn't the right time because the writers decided it was the right time and wrote it that way, it was actually the "real" right time for them. THAT SOUNDS INSANE. But as long as I know it sounds insane, that's half the battle.
Plus, I don't see Fowley as quite so simple as just being a yes-woman, you know? I'm actually rather fascinated by her, sometimes. I don't think that Mulder needs a yes-woman and nothing more either, though he can be rather needy when it comes to validation Oh, no, I don't, either. But I do see Mulder, with that innate need for validation and affection, sort of finding that attractive about Fowley, the fact that she believes. Because at the time, that was probably VERY powerful for him, sort of...being on a team. Now, we know what he actually needed, because we see it in his partnership with Scully, but for the younger-Mulder in my head, finally finding someone who not only doesn't think he's crazy, but agrees, and backs him up? That's big stuff.
I don't blame you for trying to keep the S8 thoughts at bay, believe me! Honestly, I'm impressed you made any mention of S8 at all, because... well, yeah. We want to be thinking happy thoughts right now! It was hard not to, because there are a few freaky coincidences! It made me terribly sad to see him walking into the light, and waxing poetic about his abduction.
I totally don't blame you, believe me! Again, I'm one of probably three people across the entire fandom who doesn't hate her, so you are decidedly not at all alone, lol! Plus, I had similar feelings to yours the first time around, that somehow... softened with time and rewatching (and I really didn't expect them to, actually, so I'm as surprised as anyone).
That does not sound insane! That sounds like... well, Mulder and Scully, and their vast... THEMness that makes sense in your head but is exceedingly difficult to describe without sounding a little wacky! I think that must be a shared problem, for all of us, lol. And yeah, if you ask the writers, they say that they only "decided it was time" to show that they were hooking up as late as "all things", and that doesn't even imply it was the first time. They just seemed to sort of let things be as they were in S7, thank goodness.
But I do see Mulder, with that innate need for validation and affection, sort of finding that attractive about Fowley, the fact that she believes. Because at the time, that was probably VERY powerful for him, sort of...being on a team. Now, we know what he actually needed, because we see it in his partnership with Scully, but for the younger-Mulder in my head, finally finding someone who not only doesn't think he's crazy, but agrees, and backs him up? That's big stuff. I could have totally said all of that, brain twin! In short, I agree completely, which is why the Fowley thing makes sense to me, and why I think it was sort of the kick in the ass they BOTH needed to get anything going in a remotely forward manner that wasn't tortoise-paced as they'd been going. Well, not AS tortoise-paced.
It made me terribly sad to see him walking into the light, and waxing poetic about his abduction. It is incredibly sad imagery in retrospect, isn't it? Which is really a bummer, because I remember how magical it was seeing Field Trip for the first time. Now I can't help but see it as just that little bit tainted. Sigh.
(Also, I did see Breaking Bad last night - Phil was right, omg! It was SO GOOD - but there are NO torrents anywhere, and I'm freaking a little! Come on, Internets!)
Plus, I had similar feelings to yours the first time around, that somehow... softened with time and rewatching (and I really didn't expect them to, actually, so I'm as surprised as anyone). See, I'd hoped that I'd soften on her and on Doggett when I did my rewatch, but...I didn't!
And yeah, if you ask the writers, they say that they only "decided it was time" to show that they were hooking up as late as "all things", and that doesn't even imply it was the first time. They just seemed to sort of let things be as they were in S7, thank goodness. Apart from my personal feelings about when they started doing it (oh, that sounds so crass! sorry, you guys, I know what you have is very meaningful and deep!), I think that just the fact that it's been said that they decided to show that they were together then makes it fairly clear that it wasn't the first time. I know there are people who think all things was the first time, but...I have trouble watching the rest of S7 and believing that they're not already together! Still, I will always sort of love the fact that they weren't blatant about it, that there wasn't a "Mulder and Scully hook up!" episode. They're intensely private characters, so I like that the show somehow weirdly respects that.
See, I'd hoped that I'd soften on her and on Doggett when I did my rewatch, but...I didn't! I think I actually softened on Doggett, too! I mean, as long as I ignore certain things, like "dollahs to donuts," creepy hospital lurking, and the obvious pushing of the writers behind him. ...It's possibly easier than it sounds, lol. Somehow. Other times, not. Doggett depends much more on my mood, I think.
I think that just the fact that it's been said that they decided to show that they were together then makes it fairly clear that it wasn't the first time. Totally agreed. And I never believed "all things" to be the first time either, not even the first time I saw it (when I was completely uninvolved in fandom and had hardly any insight into behind the scenes info). S7 is just too damn flirty for it to start so late!
I will always sort of love the fact that they weren't blatant about it, that there wasn't a "Mulder and Scully hook up!" episode. They're intensely private characters, so I like that the show somehow weirdly respects that. Again, agreed. I see people saying things often along the lines of "Why couldn't they have shown when Mulder and Scully hooked up?" (In fact, it seems to be one of the most common outcries of the casual fan who had a shipping angle to their viewing, based on many articles from years ago, as well as today.) And I just feel like saying... I get why you wanted it, but... would you really have been satisfied by anything they could possibly have shown us? I sincerely doubt most people would've been happy with it, whatever it might have been.
This is, again, why I'm kind of hoping Frank forgets he promised to set down a Per Manum (and possibly even a first time!) timeline, because... (a) I prefer speculating myself, because it's always more fun that way, and (b) I have a feeling those answers are going to please no one, no matter what they might think now. Am I crazy for feeling this way? I guess I'm just weirdly protective of allowance for the creation of some personal canon too, given how fluid and cranky the 1013 canon can be.
Oh, absolutely. I think his point sort of sounds harsher, but they both have unreasonable expectations. They're both stubborn, they both want to be right, and they're being unyielding. At this moment, they can't admit, or even recognize, the fact that agreeing with each other all the time would be horrible and they'd get nowhere.
Which I love! UGH, this episode. I say it every time I talk about it, but I adore that it uses the actual structure of four act television against the viewer, and I'm sure you know what I mean by that. It makes it all the more deliciously meta!
And it's meta without being overly cute about it, meta without winking and saying, "here's some meta, aren't we so clever?" It's a legit X-File layered over a true character study.
And maybe that's why the placement of this episode is key? Because right on its heels is the Biogenesis trilogy (which I feel I'm in the minority for loving), which kind of puts the final nail in that coffin, in a way. And then of course, after that, S7 is just so much more relaxed.
Do people dislike it? I mean, I don't watch it constantly or anything, because honestly, Fowley makes me tear my hair out, and I have no desire to watch her swanning around in a nightgown. But I like it for what it does, for where it gets us, if that makes sense. And like you say, if it puts the nail in the "TRUTH" coffin, that's what allows Mulder to get past that and able to move forward with Scully. I kind of believe that they might have doomed themselves had they tried to start a relationship before Mulder had gotten all of that out of his system.
I remember that too! I keep forgetting who originally said it, but it's one of my favorite theories. Sadly, this is the only time I think he reaches that moment again, and like you say, it's in a hallucination. One could argue they get there at the end of The Truth, but that's in a far more tragic way.
I don't know who it was, but I'm pretty sure you told me about it, hee! I think there are certainly moments where they're sort of...plugged into the same wavelength and figuring out things simultaneously, but it's a very distinct thing, Scully believing and giving him that validation. I mean, you have to think that was part of the reason he put up with whatever was bad about Fowley, the fact that she agreed with him about this shit, you know? There is, whether we want to admit it or not, something powerful about someone agreeing with you. Still, I don't think it's that sad, because what he needs isn't a yes-woman, and even he seems to subconsciously know this later in the hallucination. Once Scully tells him he was right, he's like: wait. That's not right.
GLEE. And now that you point it out, I really do see the similarity between those two scenes!
I know! I didn't notice it until today! And it's kind of lovely that he grows from getting that fulfillment/wonder from abducting an alien to getting it from his child in two years.
Which reminds me of "Contact High". Which I've reread so many times after watching this episode, they're practically indefinitely connected in my head. Is that crazy?
At the end of the recap, I was almost like, "Now let's all go read Contact High!"
I don't think I'm the only one who feels that THIS is, in large part, what was missing from S8.
Oh, I was DEFINITELY thinking about this, but I didn't get into it because I knew it would get me all angry and ranty. But it is frustrating to see Scully "not buying the party line" here, whereas when it ACTUALLY happens, she just...rolls over.
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Yep, which is probably what makes the whole thing so amazing. The plot, the crazy-assed plot, gets them there! Oh, X-Files.
Do people dislike it?
I suppose, like anything, it depends on who you ask, but I think I've run into more fans who dislike it than like it. I personally love it, particularly the scientific angle. It brings to light some really fascinating theories, at least for me. (Also, I'm one of the 3 people out there who doesn't hate Fowley, lol. So I imagine that helps a bit.)
I kind of believe that they might have doomed themselves had they tried to start a relationship before Mulder had gotten all of that out of his system.
Oh, definitely. I feel like there were definitely opportunities for them to finally get their shit together, so to speak, throughout the course of the show, but when we actually got it really was the prime time. They both needed to be in the right place, first, particularly Mulder, given that his quest is at the center of what drives the narrative, at least most of the time.
There is, whether we want to admit it or not, something powerful about someone agreeing with you.
Yes, definitely. Plus, I don't see Fowley as quite so simple as just being a yes-woman, you know? I'm actually rather fascinated by her, sometimes. I don't think that Mulder needs a yes-woman and nothing more either, though he can be rather needy when it comes to validation (though more emotionally than professionally, I feel), but by tragic I more just meant... the last time they're on the same page, truly, it's a rather tragic end. Hopeful, but still tragic (and I do see XF overall as a rather tragic story).
And it's kind of lovely that he grows from getting that fulfillment/wonder from abducting an alien to getting it from his child in two years.
It's very lovely! But I can't think about that too much, because down the William Road lies heartbreak and madness.
Haha, "Contact High", somewhere along the line, just became my definitive post-ep reading for this one. It's just so good! (I love that she writes in Scully again ducking under Mulder's arm, by the way, just like in the episode.)
I don't blame you for trying to keep the S8 thoughts at bay, believe me! Honestly, I'm impressed you made any mention of S8 at all, because... well, yeah. We want to be thinking happy thoughts right now!
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I dearly, dearly wish I could be mature and thoughtful, because I know that there are interesting things to be said about her character, but...I just can't! She makes me crazy! I've never grown out of my 17-year-old girl feelings about her, and seeing her on the screen makes me feel all punchy. I honestly think it's a weird fictional version of hating someone on behalf of your friend.
but when we actually got it really was the prime time. They both needed to be in the right place, first, particularly Mulder, given that his quest is at the center of what drives the narrative, at least most of the time.
It's kind of weird, but when I think about it, I get the feeling that it wasn't the right time because the writers decided it was the right time and wrote it that way, it was actually the "real" right time for them. THAT SOUNDS INSANE. But as long as I know it sounds insane, that's half the battle.
Plus, I don't see Fowley as quite so simple as just being a yes-woman, you know? I'm actually rather fascinated by her, sometimes. I don't think that Mulder needs a yes-woman and nothing more either, though he can be rather needy when it comes to validation
Oh, no, I don't, either. But I do see Mulder, with that innate need for validation and affection, sort of finding that attractive about Fowley, the fact that she believes. Because at the time, that was probably VERY powerful for him, sort of...being on a team. Now, we know what he actually needed, because we see it in his partnership with Scully, but for the younger-Mulder in my head, finally finding someone who not only doesn't think he's crazy, but agrees, and backs him up? That's big stuff.
I don't blame you for trying to keep the S8 thoughts at bay, believe me! Honestly, I'm impressed you made any mention of S8 at all, because... well, yeah. We want to be thinking happy thoughts right now!
It was hard not to, because there are a few freaky coincidences! It made me terribly sad to see him walking into the light, and waxing poetic about his abduction.
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That does not sound insane! That sounds like... well, Mulder and Scully, and their vast... THEMness that makes sense in your head but is exceedingly difficult to describe without sounding a little wacky! I think that must be a shared problem, for all of us, lol. And yeah, if you ask the writers, they say that they only "decided it was time" to show that they were hooking up as late as "all things", and that doesn't even imply it was the first time. They just seemed to sort of let things be as they were in S7, thank goodness.
But I do see Mulder, with that innate need for validation and affection, sort of finding that attractive about Fowley, the fact that she believes. Because at the time, that was probably VERY powerful for him, sort of...being on a team. Now, we know what he actually needed, because we see it in his partnership with Scully, but for the younger-Mulder in my head, finally finding someone who not only doesn't think he's crazy, but agrees, and backs him up? That's big stuff.
I could have totally said all of that, brain twin! In short, I agree completely, which is why the Fowley thing makes sense to me, and why I think it was sort of the kick in the ass they BOTH needed to get anything going in a remotely forward manner that wasn't tortoise-paced as they'd been going. Well, not AS tortoise-paced.
It made me terribly sad to see him walking into the light, and waxing poetic about his abduction.
It is incredibly sad imagery in retrospect, isn't it? Which is really a bummer, because I remember how magical it was seeing Field Trip for the first time. Now I can't help but see it as just that little bit tainted. Sigh.
(Also, I did see Breaking Bad last night - Phil was right, omg! It was SO GOOD - but there are NO torrents anywhere, and I'm freaking a little! Come on, Internets!)
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See, I'd hoped that I'd soften on her and on Doggett when I did my rewatch, but...I didn't!
And yeah, if you ask the writers, they say that they only "decided it was time" to show that they were hooking up as late as "all things", and that doesn't even imply it was the first time. They just seemed to sort of let things be as they were in S7, thank goodness.
Apart from my personal feelings about when they started doing it (oh, that sounds so crass! sorry, you guys, I know what you have is very meaningful and deep!), I think that just the fact that it's been said that they decided to show that they were together then makes it fairly clear that it wasn't the first time. I know there are people who think all things was the first time, but...I have trouble watching the rest of S7 and believing that they're not already together! Still, I will always sort of love the fact that they weren't blatant about it, that there wasn't a "Mulder and Scully hook up!" episode. They're intensely private characters, so I like that the show somehow weirdly respects that.
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I think I actually softened on Doggett, too! I mean, as long as I ignore certain things, like "dollahs to donuts," creepy hospital lurking, and the obvious pushing of the writers behind him. ...It's possibly easier than it sounds, lol. Somehow. Other times, not. Doggett depends much more on my mood, I think.
I think that just the fact that it's been said that they decided to show that they were together then makes it fairly clear that it wasn't the first time.
Totally agreed. And I never believed "all things" to be the first time either, not even the first time I saw it (when I was completely uninvolved in fandom and had hardly any insight into behind the scenes info). S7 is just too damn flirty for it to start so late!
I will always sort of love the fact that they weren't blatant about it, that there wasn't a "Mulder and Scully hook up!" episode. They're intensely private characters, so I like that the show somehow weirdly respects that.
Again, agreed. I see people saying things often along the lines of "Why couldn't they have shown when Mulder and Scully hooked up?" (In fact, it seems to be one of the most common outcries of the casual fan who had a shipping angle to their viewing, based on many articles from years ago, as well as today.) And I just feel like saying... I get why you wanted it, but... would you really have been satisfied by anything they could possibly have shown us? I sincerely doubt most people would've been happy with it, whatever it might have been.
This is, again, why I'm kind of hoping Frank forgets he promised to set down a Per Manum (and possibly even a first time!) timeline, because... (a) I prefer speculating myself, because it's always more fun that way, and (b) I have a feeling those answers are going to please no one, no matter what they might think now. Am I crazy for feeling this way? I guess I'm just weirdly protective of allowance for the creation of some personal canon too, given how fluid and cranky the 1013 canon can be.
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