(Note: this was going to be a contribution to an UnCon vidshow, but it got out of hand. Badly out of hand. So I figured I'd post it here and spare all the virtual con-goers a lot of scrolling
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Not quite sure what you mean by "multilayered community", but then, I'm not in the vidding or FF communities, so.
What I meant by multilayered - okay. With fan fiction and live-action vidding, especially on LJ, fannish interaction becomes a springboard to personal interaction; we make friends, we post about our lives (well, except that I don't post about my life very much, but I am most definitely the outlier, there), we eventually interact on levels that have nothing to do with fannish activities. Eventually, we move on to other fandoms and other activities, but we tend to stay in touch with our old friends.
This multilayered interaction pattern has weird effects on the community as a whole - like, there's a lot of cross-pollination, a lot of weird ties, a lot of old buried wanks that get reaired every year or two. And it also has a major effect on how and why we leave feedback, how we respond to feedback, all that.
In general, I don't see that kind of interaction happening as much in AMV circles. But, as I said, I wouldn't; I'm not in those circles.
If you mean social stratification, some people do claim that it exists, and some people don't.
Okay, excuse me while I fall down laughing, because that is such a familiar topic to me. We have exactly that discussion all the time, except we call the inner circle folks Big Name Fans. People say that BNFs get more feedback (See? Everything ties into feedback here!), get their stories recommended more often, get friended more often, blah blah blah blah. In addition, we often hear that BNFs are trying to Rule Fandom. (They aren't. One of them once did, but these days trying to rule fandom would be like trying to rule several hundred thousand feral cats.) Or Ruin Fandom. Or Crush Newbies. All kinds of things. Those who are identified as BNFs, in turn, insist that a) there is no such thing as a BNF and b) if there is such a thing, they certainly aren't one.
It's good to know that some things are constants.
Well, there is a whole section of the forum devoted to exchanging opinions, but I think most of the people who start threads in there tend to be of the type that give long and detailed ops, so.
Frankly, I have always feared the forum, so I have no idea; my post today was my first venture into there. (Behold as I stalk the wiley anime vidder in its natural habitat!)
I honestly don't think most Org members even know that guide exists.
Seriously? Wow. It was the second thing I read once I joined. Although, really, that's not too surprising, given that the fan fiction and live-action vidding communities place so much more emphasis on feedback.
Well, that, plus I really like the concept of guides. By now I've read through most of the technical ones, too, and I will never ever make a vid of any kind.
As AMVing got more mainstream in the years that followed, more of the casual fans and editors joined up.
Interesting. Live-action vidding has seen that same kind of change, too; I tend to think in terms of old school and new school vidders, because although they both can make great vids (and they can both make totally sucky ones), the ones who started in, say, 2000 have very different outlooks and attitudes than the ones who started in just the last few years.
I'm probably not the best one to talk about AMVing going mainstream, seeing as how I've only been in the community since 2003.
In fannish years, I think that means you started about two full generations ago, so, hey, talk away.
I'm always interested to see what kind of viewpoints and opinions arise out of discussions and experiments like this in the community...
Obviously, I'm interested, too. Let's see what happens. And, since I can already tell that the eventual result of all this is going to be an essay of some description - may I quote you and/or link to these comments when I do write that essay? It will take me quite a while to get through the feedback portion of this project and on to the meta-writing portion, but I might as well ask while I have you here.
Re. multilayering: Ah, okay. That also seems to happen an okay bit in the AMV world: people start interacting online, then meet each other IRL at cons, and the same sort of thing happens... at least, that seems to hold true for the people on my friends list. I mean, two of them even got an apartment together, and I think they met via the AMV community, but I could be wrong. It probably happened more back in the days of the Off Topic forum, which Phade had originally started in order to help AMVers get to know each other better... come to think of it, I guess he was trying to promote exactly this kind of phenomenon. But in late 2003, I think it was, they closed that board due to abuse that was getting out of hand.
You should see some of the conversations that people have across their a-m-v.org journals... often bizarre, random, and having nothing to do with vidding. (And some complain that the journals were never meant to be used as a chat room...)
> Seriously? Wow. It was the second thing I read once I joined.
Well, for all I know, it may be more popular with those who don't talk on the fora. But you wouldn't believe how many people show up on the forum asking questions that prove they never bothered to read those guides. Not even the technical ones; you get stuff like "how do I make AMVs?" or "where do I download the videos?".
Feel free to quote and/or link; I don't think I've said anything too embarrassing. Heck, some of your readers might recognize my name (I've won my fair share of AMV awards) and think that I'm likely to know what I'm talking about. :P
Well, for all I know, it may be more popular with those who don't talk on the fora.
In general, online, I've found that there are people who read to figure things out and people who post so they don't have to figure things out. This is why, in any community, you can have a giant red banner across every page reading "THE ANSWER IS RABBIT," and require people to click on a statement that reads "You know the answer is rabbit, right?" and you will still have posts reading, "Ive ben searchin 4ever WHATS THE ANSER."
Lurkers, on the other hand, can't ask questions; it would require them to come out of lurkerdom. So they read whatever is available and figure it out on their own. Or not.
So, on AMV, my guess is that the people who read the guides are the turtles like me, who avoid the forum and interaction in general. Which means that those guides are all the information those people get about the anime music video culture and community. It makes for a very different picture.
What I meant by multilayered - okay. With fan fiction and live-action vidding, especially on LJ, fannish interaction becomes a springboard to personal interaction; we make friends, we post about our lives (well, except that I don't post about my life very much, but I am most definitely the outlier, there), we eventually interact on levels that have nothing to do with fannish activities. Eventually, we move on to other fandoms and other activities, but we tend to stay in touch with our old friends.
This multilayered interaction pattern has weird effects on the community as a whole - like, there's a lot of cross-pollination, a lot of weird ties, a lot of old buried wanks that get reaired every year or two. And it also has a major effect on how and why we leave feedback, how we respond to feedback, all that.
In general, I don't see that kind of interaction happening as much in AMV circles. But, as I said, I wouldn't; I'm not in those circles.
If you mean social stratification, some people do claim that it exists, and some people don't.
Okay, excuse me while I fall down laughing, because that is such a familiar topic to me. We have exactly that discussion all the time, except we call the inner circle folks Big Name Fans. People say that BNFs get more feedback (See? Everything ties into feedback here!), get their stories recommended more often, get friended more often, blah blah blah blah. In addition, we often hear that BNFs are trying to Rule Fandom. (They aren't. One of them once did, but these days trying to rule fandom would be like trying to rule several hundred thousand feral cats.) Or Ruin Fandom. Or Crush Newbies. All kinds of things. Those who are identified as BNFs, in turn, insist that a) there is no such thing as a BNF and b) if there is such a thing, they certainly aren't one.
It's good to know that some things are constants.
Well, there is a whole section of the forum devoted to exchanging opinions, but I think most of the people who start threads in there tend to be of the type that give long and detailed ops, so.
Frankly, I have always feared the forum, so I have no idea; my post today was my first venture into there. (Behold as I stalk the wiley anime vidder in its natural habitat!)
I honestly don't think most Org members even know that guide exists.
Seriously? Wow. It was the second thing I read once I joined. Although, really, that's not too surprising, given that the fan fiction and live-action vidding communities place so much more emphasis on feedback.
Well, that, plus I really like the concept of guides. By now I've read through most of the technical ones, too, and I will never ever make a vid of any kind.
As AMVing got more mainstream in the years that followed, more of the casual fans and editors joined up.
Interesting. Live-action vidding has seen that same kind of change, too; I tend to think in terms of old school and new school vidders, because although they both can make great vids (and they can both make totally sucky ones), the ones who started in, say, 2000 have very different outlooks and attitudes than the ones who started in just the last few years.
I'm probably not the best one to talk about AMVing going mainstream, seeing as how I've only been in the community since 2003.
In fannish years, I think that means you started about two full generations ago, so, hey, talk away.
I'm always interested to see what kind of viewpoints and opinions arise out of discussions and experiments like this in the community...
Obviously, I'm interested, too. Let's see what happens. And, since I can already tell that the eventual result of all this is going to be an essay of some description - may I quote you and/or link to these comments when I do write that essay? It will take me quite a while to get through the feedback portion of this project and on to the meta-writing portion, but I might as well ask while I have you here.
Reply
It probably happened more back in the days of the Off Topic forum, which Phade had originally started in order to help AMVers get to know each other better... come to think of it, I guess he was trying to promote exactly this kind of phenomenon. But in late 2003, I think it was, they closed that board due to abuse that was getting out of hand.
You should see some of the conversations that people have across their a-m-v.org journals... often bizarre, random, and having nothing to do with vidding. (And some complain that the journals were never meant to be used as a chat room...)
> Seriously? Wow. It was the second thing I read once I joined.
Well, for all I know, it may be more popular with those who don't talk on the fora. But you wouldn't believe how many people show up on the forum asking questions that prove they never bothered to read those guides. Not even the technical ones; you get stuff like "how do I make AMVs?" or "where do I download the videos?".
Feel free to quote and/or link; I don't think I've said anything too embarrassing. Heck, some of your readers might recognize my name (I've won my fair share of AMV awards) and think that I'm likely to know what I'm talking about. :P
Reply
In general, online, I've found that there are people who read to figure things out and people who post so they don't have to figure things out. This is why, in any community, you can have a giant red banner across every page reading "THE ANSWER IS RABBIT," and require people to click on a statement that reads "You know the answer is rabbit, right?" and you will still have posts reading, "Ive ben searchin 4ever WHATS THE ANSER."
Lurkers, on the other hand, can't ask questions; it would require them to come out of lurkerdom. So they read whatever is available and figure it out on their own. Or not.
So, on AMV, my guess is that the people who read the guides are the turtles like me, who avoid the forum and interaction in general. Which means that those guides are all the information those people get about the anime music video culture and community. It makes for a very different picture.
Reply
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