ooc: Opinions Sought
Alright gang, apologies to you kind folks who only want IC cam-crap here. I promise the next post will be an IC piece that I'm already working on. But for right now, in the face of yet another denial from global, I'd like to solicit feedback on the response to my denail justification. I have provided it all here, the back and forth, under cuts, for review.
The writeup...
Papa Legba's Messenger (Projected Manifestation)
(Auspex *****, Obfuscate *)
Mekhet love knowledge. Egregoroi put their brethren to shame in this regard. So it is not unusual to have two or more Egregoroi sitting around hypothesizing on new abilities, straining to twist the disciplines they've mastered into new directions. Often, this results in a long list of failures, but occasionally there is success.
The story of Papa Legba's Messenger is a tale of one of these successes. Born of two Egregoroi cousins, Alim and Alex, who were as different as Kindred could be, both straining to do more with their ability to project into the Twilight. When it became clear that there may be a way to press through the veil and present themselves to those on the physical plane, Alim, the quiet scholar, paused. "I believe this may be how it could be accomplished, but it's not the sort of thing that we can just..." With this, Alex, ever the defiant one, smiled and cut him off. "Right. Dangerous, more research, we'll talk about it after..." and with that, pushed and strained with all of his might against the veil and broke an image of himself through.
Born of the Mekhet's ability to project any appearance he desires upon himself, and an exertion of will to pierce the veil between physical and Twilight worlds, the Kindred creates an image of themselves, capable of speaking, but not interacting with the physical world.
The agreement in how to perform this ability was the last time these two Kindred agreed, resulting in two different names for it. Alex, ever the occultist, insists that it be called "Papa Legba's Messenger" or "Papa's Messenger" for short. Alim, the pragmatic scholar, instead calls it, un-originally, "Projected Manifestation". Family members have taken to referring to is as "PM" to prevent ressurecting the argument.
Activation: Resolve + Occult + Auspex
Cost: 1 WP Point/Instant
Duration: Scene
Failure: Nothing happens, but the Mekhet cannot retry for a scene (hour).
Success: The manifestation occurs, appearing as a representation of how the mekhet's subconcious views itself (a particularly self-conscious Mekhet may appear differently, with certain parts emphasized relating to their self-consciousness). It lasts a scene (or 1 hour), and during that time it may walk around and speak normally. It doesn't leave footprints or disrupt the ground, and it cannot perform any physical action. The manifestation may be terminated early as a reflexive action.
While manifested, the Mekhet seems in the Twilight to be acting out whatever actions he's taking in the manifestation. Further, he is capable of being targetted by Line of Sight abilities even if the effecting character does not possess Auspex.
Flavor Note: When a PC gains this ability, his vampiric body undergoes a permanent shift, as a larger portion of his consciousness travels with his senses. The result is a slightly more tangible seeming entity within the Twilight, which ceases to appear naked and takes on the Kindred's current appearance (usually wearing his current outfit). Further, while (and after) manifesting in an evening, a black Aura seems to flicker around the Kindred. Initially, this is the result of "pushing" a portion of himself through the Twilight, and continues as a result of the residue left behind after the manifestation. It around the Mekhet, but clearly separate from his own Aura, and cannot be confused with the markings of Diablerie. It can only be noticed (either during or after) by achieving two successes on an Aura Perception test. It is automatically detected by Twilight entities (including projecting Kindred).
Note on Functionality: With Papa's Manifestation, Auspex is used to reach out across the veil between the real and the Twilight, where it combines with this redirection of senses possible with Obfuscate to reach out to the most primal portions of the targets mind, where it still sees the across the veil. It is the same portion of the mind that permits children and animals to sense ghosts which enables this power.
Clarifications:
The manifesting PC is still only his senses and consciousness while projecting, and therefore cannot effect the real world, and cannot use any other ability not normally permitted while using Twilight Project.
Manifested PCs waive their opportunity to remain unseen while projected.
Eye contact is achievable with projected and manifested Kindred.
This power cannot be used in conjunction with any attempt to obscure the Kindred's identity.
This power cannot be used to comply with a summons.
While projecting, Kindred leave enough of an emotional trace behind to be read via Spirit's Touch, but their Beast remains solidly within their body, and therefore abilities that sense the presence of the Beast automatically fail (example: Scent of the Beast, Predator's Taint).
This power costs 15 experience to learn.
Global's First Comment....
This essentially allows the kindred to interact at gatherings or such with no real risk. That's far more powerful than anything else. Even possession at least suffers the risk of torpor. I'm afraid this is something we're really uncomfortable with as it is, and would need to be severely depowered before we'd be comfortable with it.
My reply...
In all fairness, I don't think that's a particularly accurate description. It isn't an unkillable *body* at all.
It's an image of a projected entity. I could, at present, twilight project to a gathering, and communicate by having someone initiate telepathy with me or whatever.
Further, as I've tried to indicate previously, line of sight is a terribly dangerous thing in the Requiem venue. All manner of unpleasantness may be visited upon me via line of sight, and the only death I'm really spared from is a direct physically violent end, and it was my understanding that we weren't really pushing that as the sole means of conflict resolution.
I can be summoned to appear physically.
I can be targetted by Cruac/Theban.
I can be Dominated.
I can have all sorts of information drawn from my head, including the location of my near-torpid body.
I can be sent away by being driven in to Frenzy via Animalism.
There are still many threats that a PC faces, and adding to that is the fact that the PC who is manifested is incapable of interacting physically with anything.
So, you said "essentially allows the Kindred to interact at gatherings or such with no real risk"
The Pros and Cons, as I see it
Pro
Cannot be harmed in physical combat.
Can speak to others without additional powers being employed while twilight projected.
Can use Spirit's Touch, Aura Perception and Heightened Senses
Con
Cannot engage in any physical interaction.
Can be targetted by any of the countless non physical disciplines, with no recourse except leaving the gathering.
Cannot use Telepathy, or any other non-auspex power.
At it's absolute worst, my PC is a difficult to kill non-combatant. I can still be physicall killed by a lot of powers (such as the Spina bloodline), but it is more difficult. In exchange, it is impossible for me to in turn harm anyone, nor use damaging supernatural powers.
It is a mystical and cool way to do a video conference that would cost me 6wp points a night to keep up for a gathering.
I would hope that these points are at least in part considered valid, but if you're still convinced that it's just a way to be invincible at games, I guess we should just deny it, since I don't see a way to put myself more at risk and still accomplish anything resembling this power.
As one additional note, I'd like to gather the GSR's opinions on my NSTs opinion, which was
"Overall, I do like this; one note- despite being able to clothe himself in Twilight, the user cannot in any way disguise himself, or prevent detection of his identity- not envisioning oneself in a ski mask, for example, to hide one's identity from other Twilight observers.
Other than that, I don't think this is much different from Possession; the projection can't really use Disciplines, any more than a Ghoul who's possessed can, so it seems pretty balanced and well in keeping with the style and flavor of the PC. "
Global (replies?)...
I appreciate your points, but I'm not sure this is as underpowered or indefensible as you say.
In brief, there's no way to kill a character using this. It's true someone could dominate you to reveal the location of the body, but if the body is very safely hidden, it remains safe. Or if not, all you have to do is pop back to the body to defend it.
Also, combined with Stroll With the Baron, it becomes even easier to escape.
An attempt at reason...
"In brief, there's no way to kill a character using this. It's true someone could dominate you to reveal the location of the body, but if the body is very safely hidden, it remains safe. Or if not, all you have to do is pop back to the body to defend it. "
It is, in my estimation, unfair to hold against this power a problem with Twilight Projection. Twilight Projection makes the character unkillable, not Papa's Manifestation. Papa's Manifestion allows them to communicate and roleplay with folks while they're Twilight Projected.
My principle question in defense is; What additional problems are posed by the person being able to manifest to interact with PCs?
I agree that by increasing the chance to RP from projection, it might increase the likelihood of some PCs to use it to go to games out of body. I believe this was an ability in the old chronicle and don't recall it being terribly abused, though. Further, I think that being unable to engage in physical activity of any sort, and being unable to use any discipline or devotion save Auspex levels 1-3 is a reasonable trade off for not being in immediate physical danger.
While I couldn't be killed in an immediate, physical attack with a gun or an axe or whatever, I also pose no threat to anyone. The most aggressive action I'm capable of is Spirit's Touch. How many justifiable homicides do you think I'll avoid that way? In order to avoid one, we'd have to concede that a group of people were hacking me to bits while I posed no threat whatsoever.
And it's unfair to indicate that Dominate is the only power that could cause someone using this power problems: First, using Twilight Projection costs a WP point, then projecting for just an hour costs a second. To use it for a 4-6 hour game would take 5-7 WP. Add to that the danger posed by the standard disciplines.
Animalism: A frenzied vampire probably can't maintain projection or manifestation, so you're booted out and have to spend two more WP just to come back, and that's after (if) you manage to get out of frenzie.
Auspex: Can be used as normal on the PC, he receives no additional protection.
Dominate: Functions normally, and could be used to get someone to reveal their location, or to come to the person physically, or to wait patiently projected while someone goes to collect his body.
Majesty: All functions normally, and Summon, we've established, would cause the PC to return to his body and make his way there. At this point, the PC is on his way to the gathering in body, and out at least 2 WP.
Nightmare: Line of sight still exists, so the PC is still threatened by all the normal powers here.
Obfuscate: Affects the PC normally.
Additionally, Theban and Cruac can be used, including the powers that cause damage (they only require line of sight, if that). Also, the Spina discipline can be used to attack the PC for direct damage.
So, if there are other scenarios that make this power more defensible than I've presented, please cite them so that I have some idea of why you're concerned. That way I can address them.
Finally, I see no way in which this power combines with stroll with the Baron to make it easier to escape. Stroll with the Baron, by itself, means that with an action and a WP you can escape. This power does not make it happen faster or cost less, so I have no idea how it makes it easier. If you can tell me, I'll happily try to address it.
Global's conclusion....
It's true that it's no more unkillable than TP. The crux of the issue is that this is essentially TP, with all the advantages, but overcoming the drawbacks.
After ongoing discussion with other folks at Global, this really isn't something we're comfortable with having in game. We're furthermore trying to cut back on the number of custom items in play, and this is one that we're very hesitant about in the first place, which means that between the two, it's not something we're comfortable approving. Sorry.
With all due respect,
I am, of course, disappointed that something else I've put a great deal of work into has been denied, and perhaps this response will be written off to that bias...
That said, I once again have come away from a discussion with Global with the distinct feeling that every time I tried to reasonably address the concerns presented, that the concerns simply changed shape, and after a few such mutations, I was given a weak answer (we want less custom stuff anyway, so why not start here?) and dismissed.
It was presented that the power was not as indefensible and underpowered as I said. I asked what scenarios for abuse you saw. It was presented that Stroll with the Baron somehow exacerbated the effect of this power. I asked how.
Finally, it was presented that this power (to be seen and interact with other Kindred) was exactly like Twilight Project (a power used to spy unseen on others) with all of the advantages and overcoming the drawbacks. I feel that this unfairly dismisses the limitations specifically added to this power, and the fact that this power is clearly not just another way to spy (there is little need to improve upon TP, excepting Occulted Spirit, which I already possess).
It gives a player the distinct feeling that any such discussion with global is a wasted effort, when all attempts to address concerns are ignored while 'new concerns' are presented and eventually, all responses are ignored for a denial.
It was my understanding that this process was supposed to be a discussion between STs and players to try and make the things they hope to do within the game fit the stories we're trying to tell together. But this is the second time my discussions with this office have followed this exact pattern.
I don't know what I can ask for at this point, in response to these concerns. The last time I tried to discuss a denial, I was told that there was really no point in discussing it anyway, as your position could not be altered. I guess to face that again, after so much work, makes me wonder why I had to struggle from Low to Top if it's just going to get a yes/no anway. I had, just the afternoon before the denial, been trying to solicit advice from members of the GSR, who said that the power hadn't even come up yet, so I don't get the impression that this was a committee decision, and I guess I just feel like the decision making is a little arbitrary and inconsistent. Maybe it isn't, and maybe my perception of events is so limited in scope that I couldn't possibly understand. But if that's my sincere impression, is there any point in perhaps addressing it, in case I'm not the only one?
If you've read this far, I at least thank you for that.
Sincerely,
Harley Herrin
US2003011120
So help me out here, am I totally off-base?
And at the risk of divulging someone else's app, is having Spit that can produce a knockdown effect really so much better fitted for the chronicle that it warrants a rules discussion, where as I got jerked around and dumped?
Help me out here, loyal listeners, I just don't understand.
-H