Controversy...
:) BTW, I’d also like to meet people who disagree with me. I’m all for healthy, civilized debates--mostly Biblically-centered debates. Controversy is fine, in my opinion, as long as it doesn’t become a stumbling block or point of unnecessary division
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It’s my belief that God never causes people to sin, but only allows them to sin (i.e. allows vs. affects). So, that’s more or less passive, wouldn’t you say? Yes, I still believe that God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, as the Bible clearly says (Ex. 7:13). But how did He? God didn’t create within Pharaoh an even more wicked heart, for God is holy and can’t create sin. Rather, through providential circumstances Pharaoh’s heart naturally became hardened (i.e. he hardened his own heart, Ex. 8:15).
As to why God would allow sin in this world... You have two choices, I guess: (1) God wasn’t powerful/earnest/knowledgeable enough to prevent it, or (2) God willingly allowed it.
I think what you’re struggling with is the absolute sovereignty of God. You can take God’s sovereignty to an extreme, where He is actively controlling everything. (Now, I’m in over my head, because this is deep theological water :-/.) With such a view, people would become sophisticated automatons. Now, to where the rubber hits the road. Can God be completely aware of everything (omniscience) and directing everything (sovereignty and omnipotence) without effecting the occurrence of everything? In other words, is it possible for God to allow human actions without participating in those actions? The only Biblical answer I see is “yes.”
...Okay, this post is officially too long now :). One last thing, though, David, you don’t have to fully understand the sovereignty of God to believe it. Trust in what the Bible says; God is absolutely sovereign (even in salvation), yet man is fully responsible and culpable of his sins. This implies that man is willfully sinful and not compelled by God to sin.
More to follow...
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Absolutely, but what I've read, and heard of Calvinism, is that not only is God allowing, but he is deciding, acting, and bringing to pass every thing that happens. Including deciding beforehand who is going to be saved and who he's not going to save. I'd say this is what bothers me most because I can't see any or hardly any Biblical support for it. Maybe you could expound a little bit more on what you believe on this subject?
One last thing, though, David, you don’t have to fully understand the sovereignty of God to believe it.
Um, well I do.
Trust in what the Bible says; God is absolutely sovereign (even in salvation), yet man is fully responsible and culpable of his sins. This implies that man is willfully sinful and not compelled by God to sin.
Yes, but that's only half. The other half is 'take head what type of ground you are' when you really can't affect what type of ground you are. How do you explain commands like that?
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For now, just a brief response. God works all things out according to His perfect will--yes, including the salvation of individuals. However, I believe, whether or not most Calvinists do, that the damnation of individuals is the result of the sinful nature of mankind alone. God does not make certain ones sinful or predestine them to hell based on His holy intervention and actions. Some are predestined to hell only--only--because God does not redeem them and miraculously change their hearts. If God had left everyone to themselves and let them go to hell, would you see any injustice in that? Those who are the non-elect are left with a sin-driven will that is free in one sense. Their actions may be moderated by God, but their actions and thoughts are still of their own will (it turns out that God makes even the wrath of man to praise Him).
If that doesn't fit with what you thought Calvinism teaches, then perhaps you've had a misconception of it, or my beliefs deviate slightly from traditional Calvinism.
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[God is] deciding beforehand who is going to be saved and who he's not going to save.
Right on. Like prisoners condemned to death, God pardons certain ones of His own choosing, with Christ as the substitute. If everyone is worthy of death and hell, as I’m sure you believe, do you see a problem with God choosing whichever ones He wills to redeem and predestinate to eternal life, apart from their actions or faith? That is what grace is all about: God choosing unworthy sinners of His own will! Ephesians 1:4-5 says, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...” Ultimately, God chooses (as this passages says), not man. If you say God chose those who choose Jesus, you are really saying only that man does the choosing; God is left without a real choice. The word predestinated, meaning to predetermine, clearly points to God being the One who decides beforehand who gets saved.
Listen to these two verses: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” How are we born again? How many babies are born of their own free will? The second birth is no different. Our spiritual birth is not “of the will of man, but of God.” God makes sinners to be born again.
Um, well I do.
I know exactly what you mean, because I also always want to fully understand doctrines. But, if I never believed what I couldn’t fully understand, then I’d never believe in the Trinity or in God’s eternality. So, what I’m trying to say is that there are mind-boggling things that we must believe on faith and not on intellectual understanding.
'Take head what type of ground you are' ... How do you explain commands like that?
It sounds like you’re alluding to the parable of the sower, right? I’m assuming that you’re asking, “Why are people commanded to repent, when they supposedly can’t change their hearts.” People are commanded to repent and believe, for one thing, because that is what is right and obligatory on all. Look at it this way: God commands all to repent, even though, apart from His grace, no one would be willing (or able) to turn from their sins. The inability and unwillingness go hand-in-hand. Hypothetically, if man were paradoxically willing to repent but unable, then it would seem clearly unjust to require him to repent; but, the truth is that man is unwilling to repent-and unable. Man can be judged for not repenting because he rebelliously and willfully refuses to do so.
Whew, I feel like I’m talking in circles... If you want, you can read a whole booklet that I wrote about the doctrines of grace.
Maybe we can talk on the phone sometime about this, if we get tired of doing on here.
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Sure, phone sounds great, but it just depends when I get time. When do you get up in the mornings?
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I think so. God can certainly reward those who "seek Him," even if that seeking is the result of the work of His Holy Spirit.
Call whenever is convenient for you, if you want. Recently, I’ve been getting up around 8-8:30 (late, I know :P). Anytime between 8:15 and 9:15 would work for me. In the evening between 7 and 10 would be fine, too.
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This is basically the way I see the situation of man. The will is present in every man, but the ability is not. Man can only want to do that which is good and ask for the ability from God. The purpose of preaching and evangelism is to bring people to the point where they will desire God and ask him to enable them to serve him.
I don't think we argue that the it is the Holy Spirit that draws people. That is an understood fact. But the gospel has gone out to all people ---
Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world;
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
There is no person who has an excuse for not serving God. If there was an excuse then there would be no judgement day. Judgement is for an individual, not for a mass. If a person had no other option in life than to sin, God could not hold him responsible at the day of judgement.
What do you say?
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