And vice versa, I presume. This chapter very much establishes Harry and Sirius as similiar in their feelings - they loathe being 'ignored' and feeling useless, they desire special treatment and attention and they're both reckless and laugh at danger.
I so love Mira's sum up of this. But it's true--talk about mixed messages. I think Sirius is serious when he says he'd welcome a Dementor attack, and he dies in a similar way, so it's hard to then feel like it was a big tragedy. He died doing what he loved best, fighting without thinking. Love the fact that Harry expected a better welcome. I wish Snape was there to hear that. He stopped expecting any appreciation years ago. (I'll note here that kind of attitude is *exactly* the type of thing always ascribed to Malfoy as proof of how worthless he is, that he expects people to fall at his feet when he enters a room.) The degrading of complaints was very good, though--I believed it. Though I doubt it would have worked coming from anyone not truly sullen.
Actually, a really excellent comparison could probably be made, what with Molly's spoiling and cossetting of Harry as opposed to her more waspish behaviour towards her own children; versus Petunia's adoration of her natural child over the 'interloper'.)
That's *really* interesting, especially because I think Molly's spoiling of Harry comes from the same impulse as Petunia's waspishness: he's not her child.
Um, why don't they sell them? It's not as if they're valued sentimentally, and four hundred year old silver would bring in some money...
I hope Kreacher brought them all with him when he went to see Narcissa. Btw, this reminds me...people keep talking about how what Harry needs to learn is that not all Slytherins are as bad as Draco, and while I prefer all of Slytherin to be like Draco, I feel like there's something important about all these snakes. Although Harry wants to avoid it, this is the Black house and Narcissa and Draco are both Blacks. It is decorated with snakes, which is Slytherin's symbol, and Draco's name also means snake. The Basilisk is like a snake. Yes, I would like to think of this place as a subset of Slytherin house rebelling against the Order at every turn.
Lupin is always careful to take the middle ground between Molly and Sirius' views, and is at all times respectful and calm. Shut up, Lupin.
LOL! Keep your head down, Lupin, make a special deal with the werewolves and then rule the world when everyone else is dead. Mwahahaha!
For Pete's sake, she's cleaning your house for you!
But that's not fuuuuuunnnnnnn!
Appears Voldie has smartened up his ideas since then, judging by the success of his gesture towards the giants.
Yes, I really like the idea of his appealing to the desires of "Dark" creatures. It seems actually odd to me that Voldemort's killing one goblin family would make them firmly on Dumbledore's side when, as Bill points out, wizards have been screwing them for years. Also, some people respond well to that kind of violence, strange as it seems, if that's the way they operate themselves.
This is drummed in with every book, and frankly makes me nervous of Dumbledore. What kind of man is he, that even the evil Voldemort fears him?
Because he is Albus Sue! Only he doesn't fight Voldemort all the way because he shows love to Harry by letting him do it himself. Nobody who could kill anybody in this book to prevent more killing will do it, it seems.
The idea of the WW wanting Dumbledore as their leader is really sad. Basically, it's the ultimate paternalistic society. You're just placing everything in his hands and trusting his judgment. Sure he's done some pretty awful things, but it was for your own good. Remember when Gandalf says how the ring could turn even him evil? If Frodo had offered that thing to Dumbledore he would have taken it so fast it would have made his head spin. Twinkle twinkle.
Love the fact that Harry expected a better welcome. I wish Snape was there to hear that. He stopped expecting any appreciation years ago.
I imagine Snape would exhibit absolutely no surprise!
I'll note here that kind of attitude is *exactly* the type of thing always ascribed to Malfoy as proof of how worthless he is, that he expects people to fall at his feet when he enters a room.
But then of course, arrogance is justified when you have something to back it up. Presumably if Malfoy was as fantastic as he thinks, all his behaviour would be okay! And of course, Malfoy wanting respect (ie not having his name mocked, for example) is completely different to Ron and Harry wanting respect (ie not having their parents mocked, for example.) Because he doesn't deserve respect. Or something. Like the whole 'It's wrong to be arrogantly prejudiced against Mudbloods because Hermione is really smart' message, when in fact, even if Hermione was a hopeless idiot, it still wouldn't mean hating her for her parents would be right.
That's *really* interesting, especially because I think Molly's spoiling of Harry comes from the same impulse as Petunia's waspishness: he's not her child.
Exactly. It's easy to adore Harry, he'll never resent you for shabby robes or sandwich fillings, he's heroic and charming and handsome and ever-so-brave and he saved your daughter (sure, he helped get your son's leg broken, but hey, win some lose some) and he's so famous and rich and yet tragic. You'll never have to discipline Harry or change his nappies or be disappointed in his NEWTS.
Btw, this reminds me...people keep talking about how what Harry needs to learn is that not all Slytherins are as bad as Draco, and while I prefer all of Slytherin to be like Draco, I feel like there's something important about all these snakes.
I hate the stupid essays I see about how Slytherin is misjudged because Draco etc. are the loudest. Dude, Draco represents Slytherin. He isn't the lone outsider rebel of the house. You cannot have say, Nott come forward and join the Gryffindors and have that count as 'redeeming' Slytherin, because Nott is not its figurehead, he's its black sheep. (In that we know he's not into the gang aspect.) I mean, we judge Gryffindor by Harry, we don't say 'Gosh, all those fiery tempers and self-righteous folk must be the loud minority, I bet they're all shy and quiet secretly.' It's why I loathe Krum, despite him being 'deep' enough to pick Hermione over his fangirls (and gasp, actually talking to the Slytherins without later saying 'EW') - he's the 'good' Durmstranger, and so of course, he prefers Hogwarts and shuns the beliefs of presumably, his entire school and parents. Or Hermione, the proud Muggleborn who spends all her holidays with purebloods.
Also, some people respond well to that kind of violence, strange as it seems, if that's the way they operate themselves.
Wasn't that how it worked on the giants? One killed the other and got to be leader! (I've blocked out the endless 'Hagrid's Tale so I'm not certain)
For Pete's sake, she's cleaning your house for you! But that's not fuuuuuunnnnnnn!
Yeah, you can't die 'for' someone or get into a fight cleaning house!
Only he doesn't fight Voldemort all the way because he shows love to Harry by letting him do it himself.
I love how in the first book, Harry's all 'Gosh, he let me fight Quirrell all by myself, he must really respect me!' He thought an eleven year old. Could fight the strongest most evil wizard ever. Alone. *brains malfunctions and dies*
Hahahahahaha, I can't wait personally! I'm hoping someone will design me a layout with the whole thing emblazoned over it, maybe a Hagrid mood theme and icon set? It was so tight and gripping, after all, and set the scene for Grawp, who was endlessly fascinating! (Actually, Stellamaru wrote eerily canonical Hagrid/Grawp...)
"The idea of the WW wanting Dumbledore as their leader is really sad. Basically, it's the ultimate paternalistic society. You're just placing everything in his hands and trusting his judgment." Thank you so much for that. All this thoughtless talk of the big man at the top who is going to save us all despite all the evidence to the contrary creeps me out(Hermione: "as long as Dumbledore is there, you are safe, Harry" - never mind that Harry has nearly been killed about once every year; Molly: "Dumbledore knows best, he has his reasons" when obviously he either doesn't care or really HASN'T got things under control; Hagrid "without Dumbledore at Hogwarts, the muggleborns don't stand a chance" etc. - never mind it was two second years who sorted out the basilisk and not Dumbledore and the fact the victims only got petrified was due to pure luck and NOT Dumbledore's allmighty powers..) I mean, it's o.k. for some firsties to talk like that - but the order members? Going on bleating that Hogwarts is safe after nothing could be more falsfied? What gets my goat is not that there are stupid people like that (don't even get me started on Molly - how can a woman like that rule a whole family?)- but that JKR seems to say, that kind of blind loyalty is something good and wonderful.
JKR seems to say, that kind of blind loyalty is something good and wonderful.
This comment isn't directed at me, but there's current discussion of this at the latest reread (of HBP Ch24) at deathtocapslock, this time focusing on Harry's friends and their loyalty to him, and how Ginny as the 'ideal' girl has to not only support Harry when he's made mistakes, but denies he's made mistakes at all, and sees his failings as good points; defending him against Hermione, who isn't even attacking his action itself, being herself JKR's idea of a loyal friend. So, yeah, I'd say that this is something JKR sees as desirable, or else is unaware of - the leader to follow shifts, and there are moments when the leaders are revealed to be fallible, but the idea that people think for themselves never really comes up.
Yes, it's bizarre--I hadn't even thought of things like CoS where the 12-year-olds save the day and yet for some reason everything's fixed by DD. And yet this kind of idea is so often presented as the greatest thing in fiction.
I so love Mira's sum up of this. But it's true--talk about mixed messages. I think Sirius is serious when he says he'd welcome a Dementor attack, and he dies in a similar way, so it's hard to then feel like it was a big tragedy. He died doing what he loved best, fighting without thinking. Love the fact that Harry expected a better welcome. I wish Snape was there to hear that. He stopped expecting any appreciation years ago. (I'll note here that kind of attitude is *exactly* the type of thing always ascribed to Malfoy as proof of how worthless he is, that he expects people to fall at his feet when he enters a room.) The degrading of complaints was very good, though--I believed it. Though I doubt it would have worked coming from anyone not truly sullen.
Actually, a really excellent comparison could probably be made, what with Molly's spoiling and cossetting of Harry as opposed to her more waspish behaviour towards her own children; versus Petunia's adoration of her natural child over the 'interloper'.)
That's *really* interesting, especially because I think Molly's spoiling of Harry comes from the same impulse as Petunia's waspishness: he's not her child.
Um, why don't they sell them? It's not as if they're valued sentimentally, and four hundred year old silver would bring in some money...
I hope Kreacher brought them all with him when he went to see Narcissa. Btw, this reminds me...people keep talking about how what Harry needs to learn is that not all Slytherins are as bad as Draco, and while I prefer all of Slytherin to be like Draco, I feel like there's something important about all these snakes. Although Harry wants to avoid it, this is the Black house and Narcissa and Draco are both Blacks. It is decorated with snakes, which is Slytherin's symbol, and Draco's name also means snake. The Basilisk is like a snake. Yes, I would like to think of this place as a subset of Slytherin house rebelling against the Order at every turn.
Lupin is always careful to take the middle ground between Molly and Sirius' views, and is at all times respectful and calm. Shut up, Lupin.
LOL! Keep your head down, Lupin, make a special deal with the werewolves and then rule the world when everyone else is dead. Mwahahaha!
For Pete's sake, she's cleaning your house for you!
But that's not fuuuuuunnnnnnn!
Appears Voldie has smartened up his ideas since then, judging by the success of his gesture towards the giants.
Yes, I really like the idea of his appealing to the desires of "Dark" creatures. It seems actually odd to me that Voldemort's killing one goblin family would make them firmly on Dumbledore's side when, as Bill points out, wizards have been screwing them for years. Also, some people respond well to that kind of violence, strange as it seems, if that's the way they operate themselves.
This is drummed in with every book, and frankly makes me nervous of Dumbledore. What kind of man is he, that even the evil Voldemort fears him?
Because he is Albus Sue! Only he doesn't fight Voldemort all the way because he shows love to Harry by letting him do it himself. Nobody who could kill anybody in this book to prevent more killing will do it, it seems.
The idea of the WW wanting Dumbledore as their leader is really sad. Basically, it's the ultimate paternalistic society. You're just placing everything in his hands and trusting his judgment. Sure he's done some pretty awful things, but it was for your own good. Remember when Gandalf says how the ring could turn even him evil? If Frodo had offered that thing to Dumbledore he would have taken it so fast it would have made his head spin. Twinkle twinkle.
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I imagine Snape would exhibit absolutely no surprise!
I'll note here that kind of attitude is *exactly* the type of thing always ascribed to Malfoy as proof of how worthless he is, that he expects people to fall at his feet when he enters a room.
But then of course, arrogance is justified when you have something to back it up. Presumably if Malfoy was as fantastic as he thinks, all his behaviour would be okay!
And of course, Malfoy wanting respect (ie not having his name mocked, for example) is completely different to Ron and Harry wanting respect (ie not having their parents mocked, for example.) Because he doesn't deserve respect. Or something.
Like the whole 'It's wrong to be arrogantly prejudiced against Mudbloods because Hermione is really smart' message, when in fact, even if Hermione was a hopeless idiot, it still wouldn't mean hating her for her parents would be right.
That's *really* interesting, especially because I think Molly's spoiling of Harry comes from the same impulse as Petunia's waspishness: he's not her child.
Exactly. It's easy to adore Harry, he'll never resent you for shabby robes or sandwich fillings, he's heroic and charming and handsome and ever-so-brave and he saved your daughter (sure, he helped get your son's leg broken, but hey, win some lose some) and he's so famous and rich and yet tragic.
You'll never have to discipline Harry or change his nappies or be disappointed in his NEWTS.
Btw, this reminds me...people keep talking about how what Harry needs to learn is that not all Slytherins are as bad as Draco, and while I prefer all of Slytherin to be like Draco, I feel like there's something important about all these snakes.
I hate the stupid essays I see about how Slytherin is misjudged because Draco etc. are the loudest. Dude, Draco represents Slytherin. He isn't the lone outsider rebel of the house. You cannot have say, Nott come forward and join the Gryffindors and have that count as 'redeeming' Slytherin, because Nott is not its figurehead, he's its black sheep. (In that we know he's not into the gang aspect.)
I mean, we judge Gryffindor by Harry, we don't say 'Gosh, all those fiery tempers and self-righteous folk must be the loud minority, I bet they're all shy and quiet secretly.'
It's why I loathe Krum, despite him being 'deep' enough to pick Hermione over his fangirls (and gasp, actually talking to the Slytherins without later saying 'EW') - he's the 'good' Durmstranger, and so of course, he prefers Hogwarts and shuns the beliefs of presumably, his entire school and parents.
Or Hermione, the proud Muggleborn who spends all her holidays with purebloods.
Also, some people respond well to that kind of violence, strange as it seems, if that's the way they operate themselves.
Wasn't that how it worked on the giants? One killed the other and got to be leader! (I've blocked out the endless 'Hagrid's Tale so I'm not certain)
For Pete's sake, she's cleaning your house for you!
But that's not fuuuuuunnnnnnn!
Yeah, you can't die 'for' someone or get into a fight cleaning house!
Only he doesn't fight Voldemort all the way because he shows love to Harry by letting him do it himself.
I love how in the first book, Harry's all 'Gosh, he let me fight Quirrell all by myself, he must really respect me!'
He thought an eleven year old.
Could fight the strongest most evil wizard ever. Alone.
*brains malfunctions and dies*
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Oh my god.
I just realized we're going to get to that chapter and I will have to read it again.
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I'm hoping someone will design me a layout with the whole thing emblazoned over it, maybe a Hagrid mood theme and icon set?
It was so tight and gripping, after all, and set the scene for Grawp, who was endlessly fascinating!
(Actually, Stellamaru wrote eerily canonical Hagrid/Grawp...)
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Hmm. Lupin as Methos.
("Live, lycanthrope. Grow stronger. Fight another day.")
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Thank you so much for that. All this thoughtless talk of the big man at the top who is going to save us all despite all the evidence to the contrary creeps me out(Hermione: "as long as Dumbledore is there, you are safe, Harry" - never mind that Harry has nearly been killed about once every year; Molly: "Dumbledore knows best, he has his reasons" when obviously he either doesn't care or really HASN'T got things under control; Hagrid "without Dumbledore at Hogwarts, the muggleborns don't stand a chance" etc. - never mind it was two second years who sorted out the basilisk and not Dumbledore and the fact the victims only got petrified was due to pure luck and NOT Dumbledore's allmighty powers..)
I mean, it's o.k. for some firsties to talk like that - but the order members? Going on bleating that Hogwarts is safe after nothing could be more falsfied? What gets my goat is not that there are stupid people like that (don't even get me started on Molly - how can a woman like that rule a whole family?)- but that JKR seems to say, that kind of blind loyalty is something good and wonderful.
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This comment isn't directed at me, but there's current discussion of this at the latest reread (of HBP Ch24) at deathtocapslock, this time focusing on Harry's friends and their loyalty to him, and how Ginny as the 'ideal' girl has to not only support Harry when he's made mistakes, but denies he's made mistakes at all, and sees his failings as good points; defending him against Hermione, who isn't even attacking his action itself, being herself JKR's idea of a loyal friend.
So, yeah, I'd say that this is something JKR sees as desirable, or else is unaware of - the leader to follow shifts, and there are moments when the leaders are revealed to be fallible, but the idea that people think for themselves never really comes up.
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