Chapter Nineteen
The Lion and the Serpent
Useless Fact: This is the chapter I read first when I got my copy, purely on the basis of the title.
( Read more... )
Useless Fact: This is the chapter I read first when I got my copy, purely on the basis of the title.
( Read more... )
If readers are so willing to adapt the views on women presented in the books, because it matches their own ideas, or whether they adapt the views because they are the ones presented in the books?
Given that a lot of people seem to adopt the morality expressed in the books, to the point of defending almost any action their favourite characters can think of; I don't think it's a large stretch to assume they could also find the portrayal of gender completely acceptable simply because it's in this series. Whether or not they'd apply this in the outside world, I have no idea.
Certainly I hope they don't apply the ethical values they so assidously defend (in a fictional context, anyway.)
the majority of the writers there made that relationship, and the characters, fit much better in the traditional gender stereotypes, then the writers of the show ever did.
Lots! I remember being fond of this godawful S/B one, the plot of which I won't relate, since it's so lame, but it was my first fic and I adored it blindly...
I never saw the source material as wildly feminist. Series as a whole? Sure. Buffy herself, in a romantic capacity? Not even pre-Spike. Her role in relationships appeared to be very traditional, so yeah, fanon could be a departure from that. Although of course, their relationship was already inequal for a variety of reasons.
And yeah, what with having more than one writer on the show, characters and ships varied wildly from episode to episode.
I can't see why both of these wouldn't apply to H/D.
Heh. I've had much the same argument over Snarry, and you're right, it does apply equally.
I guess with Snape, I get the impression that his loathing of Harry is actually not a million miles of the mark: he thinks he's arrogant and like his dad. He misjudges him at times, but a lot of his suspicions also turn out to be correct.
And I think, sadly, that sooner or later, he'll realise how wrong he was to assume this, and see that, I don't know, actually Harry's like St. Lily or something.
Likewise, Pansy's dislike of Harry appears to be very impersonal - he thinks she's ugly and lame, and vice versa, mainly it appears because of Malfoy: if he wasn't around, Harry probably wouldn't even know Pansy's name.
(I was actually going to post on this chapter, but only just remembered, what I find interesting about the whole looks thing is that Harry identifies Pansy as ugly and vice versa. And Ron identifies Malfoy as ugly, and Draco identifies Hermione as ugly. But H/D stay well out of it as far as each other's appearance goes. Odd.)
Whereas Draco is the only one who...I don't know.
Gave Harry a chance?
And the only one who's dislike of him appears personally motivated.
And the only one who appears to have an accurate assessment of Harry.
Reply
I wonder if Hermione would really care enough about Draco not getting the Dark Mark though. Because I'm sure Harry wouldn't. ;-)
It's hard to buy Harry caring about much beyond Harry, really. I guess that's what fic is for!
I didn't see it as Hermione caring about Draco at all, but simply narrowing down a list of potential enemies and ensuring one more person loyal to the order.
There was something in that entry somewhere about Hermione, and how, in my view, she'd need a practical, logical motive for D/Hr; which I guess applies to that.
Although since you're fond of the ship, maybe you want to check out this. http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/archives/000194.html#top
I've been on an elkins binge recently.
She's got an uncanny knack of predicting things.
And while she doesn't buy D/Hr in canon, she thinks if he's developed further, she's likely to play a role.
I'm not convinced, but then, it was written pre-OotP, and I'm not the Hermione fan you or she is.
Reply
Yeah, you have a point.
And thank you for that link!:D I now wonder if it was Elkins who wrote the entry that first made me even consider the ship. Anyway, I don't think it's unlikely at all, that Draco is strategically placed against both Ron and Hermione, I mean. He mirrors everyone in the trio, but I think subsequent books may very well make him a more obvious antagonist to Ron and Hermione than to Harry.
Reply
Has ship_manifesto now done one yet, either?
I think one of the first stories I read was D/Hr. Um, it was by Jenny-O, if you've read it?
I've no idea if it was a 'good' representation of it or not, but I remember liking it well enough. (isn't it odd how that varies? Like, you can like a fic, but think it's shit as far as your own idea of that ship goes; or vice versa?)
http://jennyo.imjustsayin.net/archive/other/undone.html (there's two others in the series)
I didn't mean that part was unlikely.
I don't have the opinion of Hermione as being such a bleeding heart, though.
Mind you, as I said, this was pre- sneak hex and centaur plan.
Still, even elkins wavers on Hermione and her compassion.
http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/archives/000015.html#top
Reply
The funniest thing though is that the first thing that struck me as supporting one-sided D/Hr, was the same moment that in the first book made me think "well, at least I know THAT will never happen." (And yeah, I was thinking of shipping-possibilities the first time I read the books, but I blame my evil sister entirely for this as well.;-) She was the one who kept bringing it up, she made me think about it, I'm telling ya!!!:D)
I don't have the opinion of Hermione as being such a bleeding heart, though.
No, she's not a bleeding heart, but she seems more rational and less blind in hatred than Harry or Ron, at least when it comes to Draco (or Snape for that matter.) So that's why I think she's more likely than them to give him a second chance, or something. But she's probably less likely than them to give Pansy a second chance. Once again, as a sign of how "unfeminist" Hermione is, it's interesting to note that the persons she's completely ruthless to, Marietta, Umbridge, Rita Skeeter are all female. Meanwhile, she's willing to show Draco some sort of concern for Draco no less than three times so far, and as I said, she gives both him and Snape the benefit of a doubt. The persons she's most catty to, are females as well; Pansy, Luna, Fleur. Hermione is like JKR in a way.;-)
Reply
Heh, my sister loathes HP. She's a fandom dream - she can't tell the difference between Tom/Dan and H/D. But she's also very fair, since she hates every character equally. (Except, bizarrely, Tom the Innkeeper and the Sorting Hat, whom she reserves all her fondness for.)
That's a great point, about Hermione.
It's odd, she wavers from being the emotional one, sobbing and vowing to help the disadvantaged and decrying intelligence compared to friendship; to being portrayed as the brains and logic to Harry and Ron's hearts.
Reply
"No one asked your opinion, you filthy little Mudblood!"
When I first read the books, I didn't dismiss the possibility until that moment (even though I would never have considered that, or indeed any other ship thn R/Hr, if my sister hadn't brought it up), because they were both secondary characters (H/Hr seemed unlikely for balance reasons), and while they hadn't intereacted at all, they didn't seem to have any real resentment between them, like H/D or R/D had. But that moment was a turning point.
But when I read that, keeping those teen-boys-observations in mind, it struck me that this is really the moment where he starts to hate her. He's never insulted her before, and even though he brings her up in the B&B-scene (indicating that he has, at least, noticed, and learned her full name as well, which is more than Harry has managed to do with girls in other houses even after five years!:D), he doesn't do that in a particulary insulting way. He seems to be jealous of her for beating him in every subject, buit he could really have raved about it, calling her a 'Mudblood', and going on about how she's always showing off, and how Potter doesn't have any wizarding pride picking friends like her, etc, witch he does later on, but he doesn't, he's uncharacteristically respectful of her. But there's absolutely no question about how much he hates after she says he has no talent, not only because he reacts this badly on the spot, but because he hasn't let go of it months later; he keeps ranting about her to his friends, even going so far as wishing she was dead. So that insult of Hermione's obviously took; the question is if it took more because it came from her. I think it did, because Harry insults Draco's flying ability too, in PoA, and Draco's only reaction is to momentarily shut up. It also seems that by questioning his Quidditch ability, she's insulting his manliness, which got to hurt more coming from a girl, particulary if it's aa girl you have a latent crush on.
It's odd, she wavers from being the emotional one, sobbing and vowing to help the disadvantaged and decrying intelligence compared to friendship; to being portrayed as the brains and logic to Harry and Ron's hearts.
Yes. I really wish there could be some consistancy.
Reply
I'm one of those terrible people ;) who came after reading fic and watching the movies.
Or rather, I read the books, vaguely liked Harry and Draco separately (and Ron, sometimes) thought they were ok mysteries and dumped them.
Then I watched the movies, and vaguely liked Harry and Draco separately (and Ron, sometimes. Although actually, I find it easier to have affection for the movie incarnations. They're all nicer than the book versions, plus it's harder to dislike an actual face.)
Then I read some fic from a multi-fandom list (I think I entered the fandom cause of my good luck with HP fic. Started off with addictedkitten, the veelas, intellislashers and hpdrabble'rs.) and I wanted to read more, but didn't know where to start.
Since my favourite was Draco, I wanted to read stuff with him in, but I was a bit tired of enemy!het from reading so much in BTVS and there weren't many strong, likeable (just imho) female characters in HP.
There was lots of H/D, though, and for some reason, I managed to skip a lot of the bad fanon-y stuff.
Then I got further into it, branched out more (still prefer Dracoslash to Harryslash) and began to dislike more characters, including half my OTP (just like in my B/S days!)
Never managed to reread the books, though.
I have a good memory and a word copy of all five, though; and it's all referenced so much you memorize it accidentally.
...it struck me that this is really where he starts to hate her.
Yeah, what's interesting is that she already disliked him, despite having no personal reason to. Apparently on the basis of his observed obnoxious personality/because Harry and Ron did. Almost makes Draco look more reasonable. (Burn!)
(Or maybe it something to do with Neville. They seemed to get on in the train chapter, and Malfoy upset him pretty badly.)
he has, at least, noticed, and learned her full name as well, which is more than Harry has managed to do with girls in other houses even after five years! :D
Poor Harry. The evidence mounts! ;)
Yeah, I'm not sure if the Trio could name Crabbe and Goyle's full names.
Although they can Pansy Parkinson's...
He seems to be jealous of her, but he could really have raved about it
I don't know, maybe that's as much to do with Lucius as anything. He'd likely take it as an 'excuse' and it might anger him more than he already was.
Not mentioning her blood could mean that Lucius might not pick up that she was Muggleborn (making Draco look worse.)
...not only because he reacts this badly, but because he hasn't let go of it months later; he keeps ranting about her to his friends, even going so far as wishing she was dead.
I'm not sure. There's a biiiiig capacity for hate in the characters of HP.
I mean, the Trio 'plot ways to get Malfoy expelled' and Harry is unruffled at the idea that something may have got him in the forest, even though it's a real possibility, which doesn't indicate much ability to let insults go.
Ron also hopes that the monster will get Filch, and all he's ever done is be unpleasant!
Draco himself hates people he's never met, and his reactions to Ron and Harry are equally OTT (and theirs back again!
D: My name is...
Ron: *Sniggers*
D: YOU AND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY SUCK!
H: No, you!
D: Your family ain't all that either!
H&R: FIGHT PLZ KTHX BYE!!1)
Harry insults Draco's flying ability too, in PoA, and Draco's only reaction is to momentarily shut up.
Again, I'm not sure. I mean, Harry, at least has kind of more of a right to criticise - he can play himself, and apparently better.
Hermione's not only a muggleborn newbie to the whole sport, but she doesn't appear at all talented at it herself; which I imagine would rankle immensely.
It also seems that by questioning his Quidditch ability, she's insulting his manliness, which got to hurt more coming from a girl, particulary if it's a girl you have a latent crush on.
This makes total sense (not that the rest didn't, of course ;)
Reply
Yeah, it' totally easier, I'll pick movie!Ginny over book!Ginny any time of the week. Maybe because in the movies I can actually see she's a real person, something the books has never managed to convince me of.;-) I'm not sure all characters are more likeable, though. The good guys come off more as bullies, I think, and that has been constant through all the books. Like for instance, the Dursley bits are so shortened, so we don't know of all thee nasty stuff they pull on Harry, making them supposedly "deserve" all the shit they get. Especially Dudley. The narrative tells us about how he's hunting down Harry and bullying him with his friends in the books, but in the movie, he just seems like any brother, who might tease his sibling once in a while, but really just wants to play them him, and then this big man comes from nowhere and gives him a pigtail, saying that he's so alike a pig already, he can't turn him into one. Nice!
Yeah, what's interesting is that she already disliked him, despite having no personal reason to. Apparently on the basis of his observed obnoxious personality/because Harry and Ron did. Almost makes Draco look more reasonable.
Heh, yeah. I don't see much evidence of a very strong dislike from her part in PS, though. She "could sing" (hee!) when he gets detention, but that's understandable, I think, since it was due to Draco's trying to get them into trouble. And I don't suppose she liked how he set Harry and Ron up for the Midnight Duel, either, since she was so anxious about Gryffindor winning the competition, but she mostly blames them. But I think the first time she shows unprovoked dislike for him, must be there on the Quidditch pitch. I wonder where it comes from, if she's just disliking him because her friends do, and wants to show loyalty to them, or if he, for some reason, has been getting on her nerves for quite some time, and she snaps. Or if she just wants to show off ("listen everyone, I know why he got those broomsticks, I know!"). (Or maybe she just dislikes him because he reminds her a leetle bit too much about herself -arrogant, bossy, bragging and amibitious.;-))
Although they can Pansy Parkinson's...
Yeah, already in the first flying lesson... OMG, evidence for H/P!!!!111 ;-)
Not mentioning her blood could mean that Lucius might not pick up that she was Muggleborn (making Draco look worse.)
Of course, that could be it as well. I'm just giving one possible interpretation, doesn't mean it's the only one. I don't think JKR has intended the subtext I see, for that matter, considering that she seemed stunned at the very idea of the ship. But that doesn't mean it's not one, amongst others, possible ways of reading the books.:-)
Ron also hopes that the monster will get Filch, and all he's ever done is be unpleasant!
Yeah, but the difference here, I think, is that we don't see Ron go around wishing Filch will be monster-food whenever we see him (plus much as I may be a Draco-fan, that comment seemed more like a joke than Dracos), but the only two times we see Draco when he doesn't know Harry is present, Potter, Granger and Weasley is STILL all he talks about. :D Now, if that is going to be an indicative for his usual topics of conversation, I'd say there's quite an amount of subtext for all Draco/trio-ships right there.;-)
Again, I'm not sure. I mean, Harry, at least has kind of more of a right to criticise - he can play himself, and apparently better.
Hermione's not only a muggleborn newbie to the whole sport, but she doesn't appear at all talented at it herself; which I imagine would rankle immensely.
...which is exactly why I think it's weird that hee should care so much about her opinion. She doesn't know what she's talking about, that's obvious for everyone. But Harry does. So shouldn't Draco be more hurt by that?
Reply
I see that, totally - the punching scene, for instance, I've ranted enough on, but to me, that makes Hermione look worse than she did in the book - she reacts more to less insults!
Which probably wasn't the intention...
And yeah, the whole 'Cousin, we're going to the zoo!' bit, for example, comes off as quite sweet.
And the whole pigs tail bit as 'You're fat. Hahaha.' (Mind you, so does tons of the books!)
But while inadvertently making the good guys bigger bullies, they've actually made the Dursleys look nicer.
I do think everyone in general is fairly whitewashed (although Snape and Draco occasionally come off as worse) especially the Trio.
I wonder how they're going to film OotP, or even the train/ferret bits of GoF, without making some hefty changes.
I don't suppose she liked how he set Harry and Ron up for the Midnight Duel, either
Heh. What I love about that is she's all 'You realise that was a set up, don't you?' And Harry's all 'It probably was.' Probably?!
I imagine if D/Hr are in any kind of competition in any classes, as possibly suggested; they'd loathe each other on sight, never mind friends!
Two people wanting to be centre of the world.
OMG, evidence for H/P!!!!111 ;-)
*scowls* Don't doom poor Pansy to Harry. What about Pansy/Ron? ;)
I'd say there's quite an amount of subtext for all Draco/trio-ships right there.;-)
0T4, baby!
she seemed stunned at the very idea of the ship
Heh. She better not go poking around the fandom too much, then. She might have some very nasty surprises!
I now keep trying to come up with D/Hr fics I've read. Or Hermione fics at all... Have you seen switchknife's? Or nopejr's?
She doesn't know what she's talking about, that's obvious for everyone.
And yet weirdly, because a Gryffindor said it I guess, that's never questioned. Even Wood agrees.
That's a continuing problem I have with JKR's writing, though - she always gives exposition to unreliable characters.
I fully accept that Hermione may be a genius and all, but if you want me to have a certain conclusion about Quidditch?! No.
Like the bit about Harry not wanting fame.
Does this go to Ron, or Hermione, or even Molly?
Nope. Ginny, the girl who's known him two weeks.
It's so obviously a mouthpiece for JKR rather than realistic characterisation.
Reply
But you just said that you thought Snape's (current) impression of Harry wasn't too far off the mark? Besides, if Draco's assessment of Harry is accurate, then I'd think it would really be like "Draco has to realise how horribly WROOOONG he was", if he was to fall in love with him, much like you imagine Snarry.
Mind, I'm not saying I can't understand preferring H/D to both H/S and H/P, it's just that those reasons in particular doesn't make sense to me. I mean, with Harry/Snape, I personally have a hard time seeing why they would fall in love in the first place; besides personal history, there's the age issues, power imbalance and the fact that I have to wonder "what on earth would they SEE in one another?" I mean seriously? What would Snape see in a scrawney teenager who thinks the world revolves around him, and what would Harry see in his greasy haried professor, who has insulted him since the moment they first met?
And as for H/P vs H/D, there's the obvious reason that the latter contains fr more subtext, that Draco is a much more fleshed-out and interesting character than Pansy, and they're also directly opposed one another by Canon itself, in a way Harry/Pansy simply aren't. In this regard, H/P seems more like an enemy-ship just for the sake of enemy-shipping (though not quite as much as Ron/Pansy, who never even exchange a word.;-))
I just have a bit of a problem seeing that it would be such a big betrayal on Snape's or Pansy's part to screw Harry, yet they're both obliged to show nothing but support when Draco starts screwing him, otherwise they're "not being real friends" or something like that.
But H/D stay well out of it as far as each other's appearance goes. Odd.
Harry doesn't say anything overly negative on Draco's physique, despite it being his POV, I'll give you that.;-) But I don't think Draco's "Scarface" is too positive, and we don't know what he says behind Harry's back (or thinks to himself, as Harry's "Pansy the pug-face" is.) Besides, the most negative we've heard him say about Ron's looks is noting his big feet, and well, if what they say about men with big feet is true...;-)
Reply
However, to clarify: I think Snape's impression of Harry is at least partially valid.
I don't think it's supposed to be viewed that way, or JKR plans to have him keep this assessment.
Mind you, in the unlikely event that Harry and Draco ever got along in canon, I've no doubt, this too would be exactly what we discussed! Draco realising 'how WROOOOOONG I was!' ;)
I guess, I just get the impression that because Snape is currently, much more sympathetic in the text, that his hate is intended as wrongheaded but personal - there are specific traits he picks on, for example, and dislikes Harry for.
Malfoy's is all about his own flaws and jealousy and being 'turned down', so to speak; and although he obviously hates Harry, there's usually not so much actual criticism (I think the 'big man' bit at the end was the closest.)
(I would love a character who genuinely disliked Harry's ideology, no 'It's James issues!' or 'U r just jellus!' or 'Tricked by the Prophet/circumstantial evidence'. But so far, I think everyone who dislikes Harry does so for reasons that aren't about him as much as them, because that's how JKR wants to write it.)
I just have a bit of a problem seeing that it would be such a big betrayal on Snape's or Pansy's part to screw Harry, yet they're both obliged to show nothing but support when Draco starts screwing him, otherwise they're "not being real friends" or something like that.
I don't think Pansy/Snape have to show any support to Draco at all, in any possible resolution of H/D.
Oh, and I didn't mean that Snape would be betraying Draco. (I don't think I'm expressing myself at all well!)
They're not that close, imho, are they?
It would be a betrayal, to me, of what Snape is about rather than any loyalties he has to anyone else.
Snape is one of the few characters I'm almost entirely ambivalent on, and one of his greatest characteristics, to me, is his snarking on Harry. It's something he brings to the books that no-one else does. Take that away, and what's left?
Lots, I guess, if you're a Snape fan, but since I'm quite neutral, I'd feel like he 'sold out'.
Since Draco proved himself amenable to making friends with Harry once, for whatever reasons, it wouldn't be the same. To me.
Likewise, Pansy wouldn't be being disloyal (although I've no doubt her friends would see it that way) but since there's only like, three characteristics she has at present, taking one away is bad news! I mean, inarguably she's less developed even then poor flat little Malfoy, so it would be like...I don't know, that she didn't need a personality of her own, just being Harry's girl would 'redeem' her.
I like Pansy, I think she and Draco appear to have a firm friendship going on there (or more, who knows?!), so I imagine should H/D become friends or whatever, she wouldn't be wildly adverse to it, since her connection to Malfoy appears stronger than her dislike of Harry. (Hermione, on the other hand...there's a good ship for ya.)
Reply
Hee! :reports mission accomplished:
I guess, I just get the impression that because Snape is currently, much more sympathetic in the text, that his hate is intended as wrongheaded but personal - there are specific traits he picks on, for example, and dislikes Harry for.
Ah, OK, I understand. I suppose then that the reason for our different ways of seeing this may be that I don't see Snape, in the text, as more sympathetic. I mean, sure, he has saved Harry's and other's lives on more than one occasion, but he's a teacher, that's his responsibility. It's something you have more reason to expect from him, than from Draco, who is jusst a fellow student, aand certainly no more capable than other kids. Otoh, Snape is far more nasty than Draco has ever been; his abusing his authority to bully children, whereas Draco is only capable of coming up with lame insults with his peers, most of whom are more than capable of taking him on, when he does. And for this he has the excuse of being a child. So I think if you weigh their respective positive and negative traits, they come out on pretty much the same place on the nasty-scale. I realise, you probably see it this way too, only you don't think we're supposed to see it that way, but I don't see any reason for why we shouldn't be.
Malfoy's is all about his own flaws and jealousy and being 'turned down', so to speak; and although he obviously hates Harry, there's usually not so much actual criticism (I think the 'big man' bit at the end was the closest.)
OK, I'm with you on the "turned-down"-aspect. That's the most interesting part of the H/D-dynamic, whether you see it as shippy or platonic. Jealousy, yeah, that's there too, but I think there may be some on Snape's part too, although it's true that the genuine jealousy Snape may feel for Harry is probably tainted by the jealousy he felt for James. But I'm wondering, do you think that if we took away those two aspects, Draco's feelings for Harry would be pure admiration? It's interesting to think about, because we really don't know. (Otoh, if that were the case, would you still like him?:D)
(I would love a character who genuinely disliked Harry's ideology, no 'It's James issues!' or 'U r just jellus!' or 'Tricked by the Prophet/circumstantial evidence'. But so far, I think everyone who dislikes Harry does so for reasons that aren't about him as much as them, because that's how JKR wants to write it.
Yeah, that's true. Someone who just disliked Harry, because they dislike his personality. Otoh, isn't it often so that when you do dislike someone, it is often about you? I mean, it's their personalities too, but some people get to us more than others, because something about them really touch a nerve in us somewhere, so it's ultimately about us? You can definitely read Harry's dislike for Draco that way. Not to mention the fact that Harry never likes anyone who criticises him, until they see the error of their ways. That is ultimetely about Harry, and his inability to take criticism.;-)
Thank you for clarifying the disloyal part, I can see where you're coming from.
(Hermione, on the other hand...there's a good ship for ya.)
Hee! Yeah, Pansy would most probably feel more betrayed by Draco together with Hermione rather than Harry or Ron, I'd be highly disappointed if she was to play the role of supportive friend.:D I'm not sure Draco would necessarily see it as bigger betrayal if she was with Harry, then with Ron or Hermione, though, since he hates all three of them, and there'd be the issues of "blood-traitorous" as well.;-)
Reply
A lot of liking Snape, for me, gets diluted by fandom. So whereas before, I maybe thought he's funny and I feel a bit bad for him, but he's kind of selfish and childish; the whole 'OMG U MUST LOVE SNAPE, HE'S A HERO' makes me want to dislike him!
And it's hard to tell whether JKR intends a lot of what I think she does, or whether I'm particularly suspicious/paranoid of her! ;)
...if we took away those two aspects, Draco's feelings for Harry would be pure admiration? It's interesting to think about, because we really don't know. (Otoh, if that were the case, would you still like him?:D)
Heh, Draco without jealousy is hard to imagine.
I think if you changed the turn-down, there'd still be conflict, cause there's two people wanting to be number one there.
So maybe he'd still think Potter's kind of a bighead, but not seeth with hatred.
Of course, then you're getting into AU territory, where maybe Harry being more tactful = Slytherin!Harry (plus, without the turndown, you still have house rivalry) which would be a completely different H/D dynamic: Still conflict, imho, but I imagine they'd get on in between that, and admiration would be more pronounced, since they'd have at least one common goal: house pride.
I don't know, I don't think I'd change my mind on him now (which would down to my stubbornness as much as anything!) but if he'd been that way from the beginning, I have no idea what he'd be like and whether he would have interested me. Maybe not. I like brats!
Otoh, isn't it often so that when you do dislike someone, it is often about you?
Oh, totally. Why people dislike who they do is fascinating, even why they like/dislike fictional characters (unless you're only looking for superficial things like: OMG, all Snape fans <3 Alan Rickman or All villain fans hate nice people (I love that. Best rationale ever, imho.)
I think people, both irl and character-wise, like/dislike people for similiar reasons, so maybe if you wrote a list of enemies or something, you'd find they had something in common (or a list of people you liked.)
And of course, they say people dislike in others their own worst qualities (How depressing. I guess that makes me a natural Gryffindor.)
I think Draco and Harry often come off as very similiar, to me anyway. The difference is mainly in the presentation.
That is ultimetely about Harry, and his inability to take criticism.;-)
Or mocking. Magpie said something once about how Fanon!Draco actually makes Harry more likeable (I guess, into Fanon!Harry) in that Fanon!Draco seems to put a value on humour, like in canon, except Harry laughs at himself in fic.
Pansy seems to have a stronger dislike of Hermione than the boys, so yeah, I think that would bug her more. And obviously there's the whole gender thing; it's less insulting if someone's gay, I imagine, than someone being straight and preferring a mudblood!
But yeah, Draco's different - his prejudices appear stronger than any attachment to his friends (his strongest attachments appear to be to his family, and hating Harry!) whereas Pansy's really an unknown.
I like her, though. I think one of my favourite bits was how she was trying to disguise that she liked unicorns! Sweet.
Reply
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Not to mention, when Snape-fans white-whash him the way they do, they sort of erase what I love about the character in the first place. It's sad really, he's one of my favourite characters. The Luna-fandom is slowly but suredly beginning to do the same thing to me, which is sad, because I was so happy to find another female character I liked, and thought seemed real. But it seems like, when it comes to female characters in this fandom, many people put their favourites on some kind of piedestal, and DAMNIT, I DON'T WANT ANYONE ON A PIEDESTAL! Maybe this shouldn't surprise me eitheer, considering JKR seems to bring forward the message that girls/women, unlike boys/men, need to be absolutely PERFECT in order to deserve love. It goes against my principles.
I like brats!
Yay for brats, and down with Saints, I say!
I think one of my favourite bits was how she was trying to disguise that she liked unicorns! Sweet.
Hee! I have fondness for Millicent based only upon how she didn't smile back to Hermione, and was so disgusted at her crying she let go of her hold!:D I liked that unicorn thing too, even though I think her motivation was "I can't show that I like anything in HAGRID'S class", rather than "I can't show anyone I like something as corny as UNICORNS", though I definitely prefer the latter interpretation (so teenagy!). What little we have seen of Pansy, definitely intrigues me, she's more interesting than Ginny, despite the difference in the size of their parts.
Reply
I'm not and was never enamoured with her, but she seemed marginally more sensible than the Trio, and I liked that she stood up to them occasionally and was *gasp* a friend from another house. There are tons of sensible fans, like maria, as there are for every character, I'm sure.
But all I ever seem to see are 'OMG, I AM LUNA, SHE IS PERFECT, SHE WILL MARRY HARRY/RON AND SIT ON A THRONE OF GOLD, SHE'Z LIEK SUPER-REBELLIOUS & IMAGINATIVE!111 DO YOU LIKE HER YET?'
Um, not so much anymore, no.
Oh, I <3 Millicent. The disgust was one of my favourite parts (really not a big OotP fan! ;) as was her unwittingly outdoing Hermione in CoS, both with the duel and the potion. Clearly nobody fucks with Millicent Bulstrode. (And you have to laugh at her descriptions, too: "No pixie" - OH NOES!1111)
And Pansy, too. I like the crying, I thought it was sweet (gotta love how if Hermione did it, it would like, a testament to her loyalty or concern or something.) And her pink robes. And the unicorn. (I never considered the Hagrid thing. I've unwittingly made my favourites Sues and see only positive interpretations of them! ;)
Big softie.
Plus she's quite funny (*is ashamed to admit, found the Hagrid grunting bit hysterical*)
Pansy/Hermione I could totally buy, if I was into femmeslash.
Reply
Leave a comment