Chapter Nineteen

[merrymelody]

The Lion and the Serpent

Useless Fact: This is the chapter I read first when I got my copy, purely on the basis of the title.

Comments

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[jollityfarm]

It's like JKR's prodding the audience 'Look! Laugh! Pansy/Draco/Zacharias/Umbridge looks stupid and is gawping! The Trio thinks it's funny!' rather than, oh I don't know, just writing a half-way decent gag.

Oh yes. Mind you, I feel that about a lot of things. One of the reasons I never really got into Friends was that whenever a mildly funny joke was made, there was an atmosphere of "Hey, we made a joke!" I don't much like laughter tracks on things, especially since they tend to drown out the actual punchline anyway - and it's very offputting to be told when to laugh.

Mind you, as I've said elsewhere, people tend to believe what they read. So if we're told Ginny or whoever is very funny, they'll tend to remember her as such.

occasional mockery combined with pity and a desire not to be around them in front of 'cool' kids.

I know I "should" like Neville, but he's so damn wet. Surely he's not so dense that he can't realise that Harry despises him (also, how long do you think it'll be before Harry tells him about the prophesy, of which he might well have been the subject? I'm thinking at least two-thirds of the way through book six, and not before spending valuble page time angsting about how he has to carry this dreadful burden All Alone, woe)

Have any of them given her any indication whatsoever that they want her around? Why is she so pathetic that she roots for them, her new best friends, who don't even like her?

Harry even went as far as to try and prevent her from coming to the Ministry of Magic at the end because she (and Neville and Ginny) was so embarassing. I wouldn't be very impressed with someone who insisted on treating me like that.

And of course, the girl is some kind of prize to be fought over, rather than having any value on her own merits.

This is, by the way, another thing I hate about the repulsive Severus/Lily/James triangle hanging round the fandom like a stalker. Lily is so speshul that all the boys love her (we've seen literally no indication that Severus liked Lily at all, but obviously any sort of exchanged word counts as a declaration of love) but she's not actually anything better than a sparkly thing that boys fight over. I don't care what anybody says, she's got tit-all personality, she's just Harry's saintlike mother robot.

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[merrymelody]

Heh. My sister watches a lot of laughter track programmes, and I always like to join in. After a while, you realise how ever-present they are, and apparently, it's quite irritating ;)

I hate Neville. Neville is exactly what JKR attempts to make us loathe: a coward; and yet for him, it's supposed to be okay, presumably because he's a Gryffindor coward, blah blah doublestandardcakes. He just has no dignity, and while I don't put the emphasis on pride that apparently everyone in the HP!verse does, he really isn't very likeable.
Heh, I imagine it will be spun out for ages, until someone tells off Harry and he can use it to shut them up, in a fit of anger. And then, perhaps, he might consider telling Neville. Sooner or later. When Neville needs his help, is my guess.
And Neville will immediately feel sorry for Harry and console him, rather than considering it from his own perspective at all, because the best people care about Harry above all others.
Or maybe he'll go quiet and focus on DADA more as a way to revenge himself. Yay.

What I love is that train part where he wishes that Cho hadn't seen him with Neville and Luna. Not Ginny, though. Know why? BECAUSE GINNY IS COOL.

Of course Severus loved her. He called her a mudblood. Why, it's like Romeo and Juliet, in a way.
And Sirius and Remus (UGH I HATE MOVIE!REMUS MORE EVEN THAN BOOK!REMUS) and even fat, ugly Peter all fancied her, too. After all, she had almond-shaped eyes. *vomits*

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[jollityfarm]

If Neville weren't so obviously being put foreward (as is Hagrid) as "Isn't he sweet and charming?" I might like him better. I mean, people like to complain that Neville is being OMG bullied by Professor Snape, which he is, but what on earth is up with him wibbling with terror five years on? Professor Snape has done nothing to him at all besides look menacing - surely he'd have worked that out by now and got angry anstead of going "gulp" every time Professor Snape looks at him. Not that he isn't going to get an "O" for Potions, because all he really needed was confidence. Blah.

Movie Remus was as creepy as fuck, which is partly because David Thewlis is as creepy as fuck, especially in that creep-tache, and partly because of his oozing over Harry on that bridge scene. And his description of Lily! It's probably to do with Humbert Kloves and his fascination with teenage girls (am so glad he won't be writing the script for 1337 Ginny in the fifth film), but wouldn't you even be a bit creeped out if some teacher started vomiting out stalkerish praise of your own dear mum?

Also, the usual Lily-so-cool, Lily-so-good dribble. Show me some redeeeming vices, then I might start to agree with you.

hagrid rant ahead

[merrymelody]

Well, exactly. If Hagrid was acknowledged as a bit of a screw-up, but a nice guy; fine. It's the whole 'OMG Hagrid never ever does anything wrong, and if he does, it's someone else's fault, don't you loooooove him?' Plus I get the feeling he's supposed to be endearing in his fondness for the drink and lack of self-confidence, rather than repulsive. I mean, look at fanon - it's not canon, obviously, but it's reflective of it. Where are all the Hagrid fans? Nowhere. Why? Because even with a zillion different viewpoints and bitter rows over everything else, there's only one sure thing in the HP fandom. Everyone hates Hagrid. I can literally think of one fan of his. One. When there are people fangirling death eaters. That's how loathsome he is.

I know. I mean, at least with Harry or Draco, both of whom can be fairly obnoxious and react stupidly, you have at least a decent motive to fear a teacher - they hurt you.
With Neville, his biggest fear is based around a glare. Which is just lame.

My sister went into hysterics over Thewlis, since we've seen Total Eclipse (which features Gay!Thewlis nailing Leonardo DiCaprio, and gratuitious Thewlis!nudity.) She especially liked the line 'Believe me, I've looked worse.'
But seriously, I hate Movie!Remus. I'm not fond of Book!Remus, but at least he admits he makes mistakes. Movie!Remus is whiny and self-pitying and whitewashed and creepy, and the stupid Poor Gay Remus bit was one of the lowest points. And that's saying something. (I think I'm the only person in the world ((how very Harry! ;)) who doesn't a) like PoA the book best and b) doesn't like PoA the movie best. At least Columbus knew he was cheesy. Cuaron's film was cliched cheese that thinks it's art.)

God, the fifth film will be shite however writes/directs it. But imagine who they'll cast for Lily.

Re: hagrid rant ahead

[jollityfarm]

Even though I haven't asked him, I'd be willing to bet my stepdad adores Hagrid. Mind you, he's got no taste whatsoever. But I can't think of anyone in the actual fandom who <3 Hagrid above other more popular characters. Not that I'd be reading their journals much if I did.

The lycanthropy-is-homosexuality parts of PoA-the-movie offended me, as I've said before. The film looked better in a lot of ways, compared to the first two, but there was a lot of useless shit that could have been hoisted out in favour of explaining the backstory/Maurader's map/Snape connection. That busride was dreary in the book, we don't need it recreated in super-techno-two-mirror-o-vision complete with humourous shrunken Lenny Henry (thought: when exactly did Lenny Henry stop being funny? I'd swear he was once). Also, was most amused by the fact that Sirius' animagus form appears to be a terrier-ish mongrel. I was picturing a black labrador or something, but apparently not.

Someone on another forum suggested Daniel Radcliffe for young James and the girl who plays Ginny for young Lily. I do hope they don't do that ("HAY GUESS WHAT OUR OTP IS!!!!").

Re: hagrid rant ahead

[merrymelody]

Heh. My mum likes Hagrid. But only because she fancies Robbie Coltrane (that's not a JKR style assumption, either, she admitted it ;)

I thought the direction was, um...showy? Pretentious? Like, ooh, look at me, I can do a closeup into SOMEONE'S EYE. Wow. I've never seen such an amazing technique before. Watch, as the Knight Bus appears to fold (that was a really, really, really cheap looking effect.) Marvel as I include homages....to ME! And make every single character dislikeable (Kloves/Cuaron/JKR - theirloveissoselfcongratulatory) Plot? Characterization? These things are unimportant next to the kicky pink hoody and showcasing Daniel Radcliffe's attempts at crying!

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[sistermagpie]

The thing I don't like about Neville is a) that he's so "good for you" in his presentation--if you're a good person you want to protect him because everything scares him so he's so brave, etc.

But more importantly, I don't like the way his development is going--the "lesson" he's teaching seems all wrong. Like Luna, Neville is supposed to prove himself to the cool kids and tag along after them until he earns their friendship when I personally think it would be more satisfying and dignified for both of them to think Harry and his friends aren't half as great as they think they are. But of course Neville thinks of Hermione as "kind" rather than being annoyed at how she constantly draws attention to him in class and likes to see him as yet another unfortunate to protect, like the house elves. And he thinks Harry's the best and so heroic despite Harry obviously fidgeting whenever he has to spend time with Neville--not to mention Harry's OMG WOE TO ME THE ORPHAN I SUFFER SO!! when Neville himself has to deal with two Pod Parents. And of course he loves Ginny for proving how kind she is by being seen with him in public--it's good she was rewarded by meeting a better guy during their date.

Neville could be the character who stands against the stupid side of Gryffindor if he continued to stand up to peer pressure and refuse to become a bully. Instead we're supposed to cheer him on for conforming and getting the kids who used to completely ignore him to tolerate him--woo hoo.

It's the same with Luna, in a way, the way the book just assumes that of course she'd want to hang out with these kids even though they think she's as nuts as everyone else thinks she is. It's like that scene in The Breakfast Club where Molly Ringwald explains that Anthony Michael Hall's friends "look up to" her and her friends--it's the classic arrogant fallacy of the popular kids: other kids wish they were our friends. Certainly the geeks don't trash us to each other. I think that's one of the weirdest things about the way N/L was sunk to me--maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but I got the impression that JKR thought that a) Neville should be even more put off by Luna's weirdness than a hero like Harry would be, despite being a nerd himself and b) that it was unhealthy for two outcasts to get together because that would imply they didn't mind being outcasts. Like it would sad if they wound up settling for marrying each other instead of hooking up with "normal" people who were socially successful. I don't think Neville and Luna *should* get together just because neither has real friends, but if they chose each other because they genuinely loved each other it would be just as good a relationship as any of the Trio ships.

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[go_back_chief]

b) that it was unhealthy for two outcasts to get together because that would imply they didn't mind being outcasts.

I must say that's not the way I read it at all, rather I thought what she was doing was generalising the motives of N/L-shippers, much like she generalised the motives of D/Hr-shippers ("they only want Draco and Hermione to get together because Tom Felton is pretty and girls usually go for 'bad boys' before they have acquired the wisdom and experience I have"), when she sunk that ship. And her assumption of the N/L-shippers' motivation was that they didn't want Neville and Luna together because they honestly thought they were suited, or because they love each other (which we now know they never will in Canon), but because they thought "everyone must necessarily be paired up", and "no one who is NOT a geek could ever possibly love Neville or Luna, so they better fall in love with each other, because that's the only chance they could ever get".

I completely agree with you on the "Neville-lesson" part, though. I still like Neville, but I'm really fearing that his "rise-storyline" will become more than I could handle, and I'd hate it if the lesson becomes that he has to transform to Harry's/Trio's/Rest of Gryffindor's standards, before he can "gain" other people's respect and his own peace of mind. This is why I loved this story so much, because it shows a Neville who cmes to the conclusion that he doesn't need other people's approval all the time, rather than having him transform, and then become accepted. It's also a big part of the appeal in the Neville/Cho-ship, for me. I mean yes, part of it IS because I think having Neville succeed where Harry doesn't is a far more satisfying and suitable resolution for this character, instead of having him go through some cheesy secondary hero's journey (kill me now!), but it would also be come across to me as "two people who Harry has deemed unworthy" (though for completely different reasons), deciding they love each other despite what other people (other people here meaning Harry ;-)) think of them. While N/L could supposedly tell this story as well, I think N/C would do it far better, not least because the fact that both Neville and Luna are, at least by the end of OotP, Harry-friend-wannabes, and I don't think JKR having them dating each other would have changed that in any way.

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[sistermagpie]

That, at least, is something I can get behind--the idea that just because Neville and Luna both seem like geeks doesn't mean they can't expect to do "any better" than each other--though it's unfair to assume that everybody assumes that's what anybody interested in the ship thinks. I mean, I could come up with perfectly valid reasons for them to like each other that have nothing to do with that, actually. That Neville is freaked out by Luna at first is good because her dottiness could show him that you don't have to try to fit in, that it's okay to be different. And they both could be the only people who see no reason to get back at people who pick on them, not to mention they have the same bonding issue that supposedly makes Luna/Harry so important--they both have dealt with death.

But yeah, that's exactly what I don't like about Neville, that his own strengths aren't good enough so he better develop some kung fu double quick. Then we can have Hero!Harry, Second!Hero!Neville and Coming!Up!A!Distant!Third!Sidekick!Ron.

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[go_back_chief]

I, for one, have no doubt that shippers behind any ship can have perfectly valid reasons to ship them -whether I'd agree with them or not- even if it's ships I personally don't see the appeal in. Andd that's why it's always annoying when someone is putting words into shippers mouths, telling them why they like it, rather than listening. It's no less annoying when the author does so herself.

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[merrymelody]

Seriously. What's wrong with Neville who likes Herbology and avoids conflict if possible?
Why does he have to be good at the subjects Harry deems best, like DADA, and 'prove' that he belongs in Gryffindor by fighting. Why can't it just be that he's brave because he has a rough time of it and doesn't whine (unlike other characters who shall remain nameless, lest I be accused of not having proper respect for Harry, the Only Boy with Hormones in the world...Oops.) and works hard?

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[merrymelody]

Hee! I like that story.
And now I'm curious as to whether any Neville/Cho exists. I know Invisible to See had a little.

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[jollityfarm]

The idea that people should be pathetically grateful for any wincy scraps of patronising praise or pseudo-comfort afforded them by more popular, better individuals instead of feeling objectified or patronised is one of the more repulsive ideas the series has managed to spring. Looking at these summaries and realising what a crock of shit the supposed "niceness" of the trio is, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to stop myself from wailing "You tell the bitch!!!" during the "mudblood" bit in the Pensieve scene. I would do the same today if someone spoke to me like that. Mind you, I hate Lily for having been obviously such a bitch in her younger days.

I would really like to see someone who genuinely doesn't conform. Someone who doesn't support Gryffindor at Quidditch - and not just because they're Slytherins, but because they hate Quidditch. Someone who actually resists conforming and refuses to hang around with the popular set on the basis that they're a shallow bunch of patronising fucks. Neville pisses me off because he does nothing to earn anyone's respect, we're just supposed to like him because he follows our heroes around like a slightly brain-damaged lost puppy. He doesn't have a single thought of his own in his head and no real personality beyond "charity case". Why should I care if he's bullied by anyone?

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[sistermagpie]

You know what I'd love to see? Somebody who didn't care about the ridiculous house cup. I swear if I went to this school I'd probably be lynched for not caring about points. You'd think Dumbledore's little show first year would clue them in that this contest is a farce, but no, everybody's just cheering Gryffindor the Underdog again, even though canonically neither Hufflepuff nor Ravenclaw has won for 11 years. People are still stupid enough to get angry at housemates for losing points, or hating people in other houses in pursuit of the cup that means nothing and isn't even fairly awarded.

And these are the rebels. The ones who stick it to the man and don't like authority.

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[mariagoner]

Dude, word on that. Why DO people care about the damn House cup anyway? Exactly what does it to for anyone in the House that wins it for the year, besides grant temporary bragging rights for their Heads of House?

Personally, I'm just hoping the Hufflepuffs and Raveclaws have already figured out that winning the House Cup isn't the "honor" it's said to be by their professors and left the dreary task of chasing it to the glory-hog Gryffindors and resentful Slytherins...

Re: Part two, because your summary is so huge!

[jollityfarm]

I would love to see a character that doesn't care about the house cup. In fact, I've got one for my Severus Snape genfic/Snape family backstory who doesn't care about any of that at all, and is actually quite resentful that people want to make him grasp for totally meaningless points that won't matter at all in the real world.

I think it's my way of working out my own personal feelings about rebellion, particularly as it relates to this canon.