Wow. First off, thank you for being interested. I don't think anyone has even taken the effort to write such a nice introduction to me before. I'm flattered.
Secondly, welcome to the Saiyuki fandom. I've known about it for... eh, about four or five years now, I guess. But I only became really involved about a year ago. Now I'm obsessed with it, and even though I do read other series Saiyuki is about the only one I do fanworks on. Never read Gravitation. I know a lot of people who have, though. Maybe I should look into it?
Yeah, I'm a Christian. A mormon to be exact. Which probably doesn't make much sense because I smoke, drink, curse, masturbate... oh, and there's the little matter of my sexuality and gender identity. Yeah.... In spite of that, I actually have a lot of faith. I just believe that God loves all his children and not only some of them. Organized religion is a touch-and-go thing with me, but I believe in God regardless of all the stupid things that human beings do in his name.
Admittedly, 383 is my OTP, but I like a lot of the other pairings as well. Mostly 585 and 353, but I'm open to pairing Goku with people too. (And I might have some 898 or 595 up here eventually, so you might want to avoid that?) I used to be squicked by 393, but I'm not anymore. It's a fairly recent development, but I've actually come to like 393 quite a bit. I think I'd like to try writing it someday. Right now I would say that the pairings that squick me the most are Ukoku/Sanzo and Sanzo/Lirin. Both of those just break my brain.
I'll go ahead and add you back, but I should warn you that I had a rough week. So, if an angsty post comes up, then consider yourself warned.
I'll read just about anything, though I don't much enjoy non-con among the recurring characters. I just have a hard time imagining how to make those pairings work. If someone else can, more power to them.
I can see Ukoku/Sanzo if it's non-con or dub-con. I have a hard time imagining Sanzo with any woman and think Goku (who of all the ikkou I can most easily imagine settling down with the right girl/woman) would be the best match for her. I find Komyou/Ukoku harder to believe because I just can't see Koumyou being Ukoku's lover, but then again I haven't read the Burial arc yet either. All I know of Ukoku (as opposed to Nii) is the snippet we get at the end of the Kami-sama arc and what's in Reload volumes 9 and 10, which I've read on saiyuki_manga. I've read all of Gensomaden and vols. 1 and 2 of Reload but don't own any Reload volumes yet.
Edited to add: My icon is from Gravitation. I encourage you to read it. While it has pscyhological depth and a characer who is even more messed up than Sanzo, with a similar demeanor, it also has a lot of crack which sometimes drives people away, as it's basically a comedy/romance with the angst/drama coming in third. It has more and better female characters than Saiyuki though, which is ironic considering it's a true BL title rather than slash. It also has a MtF transgender character, though I can't guarantee she's all that accurately depicted.
Yeah, I can't imagine any of the ikkou raping anyone. I can see Ukoku/Sanzo happening if it's non-con, but I wouldn't like reading it. (Well, I actually have read it a few times before, so I would know.)
You ever heard of the Kinsey scale? I think Sanzo would be a five. Not completely gay, but close enough that he probably never really thinks about women like that. It would take a very special sort of woman to get his attention, if any of them could at all. I definitely agree about Goku/Lirin, too... although Hakkai is probably the one I could see settling down with a woman more than anyone else. He already did it once after all, and he obviously wants to again.
I can't see Koumyou being Ukoku's lover either, but I get why some people can. I've read through the whole series, including the pages at saiyuki_manga, so maybe that helps? I like the mind-play between those two, but I really don't think they're quite that intimate.
Hm.... Well, Gravitation sounds interesting. Crack is good. I'm actually a big fan of Ouran High School Host Club as well, and that series is chock full of crack. More female characters is good too, and it's rare to see trans people of any kind. Yeah, I think I'll check it out when I have the time. Thanks for the recommendation.
I've read two volumes of Ouran and it's fun but static and not all that memorable. I actually like the anime better, which is like heresy for me, because I'm so manga-centric. Gravitation can be inconsistent - the mangaka is not a model of organization and admits it - but it's a fun ride, touches on some important issues (like celebrity media and sexual identity), and the characters change. Also there's non-graphic sex, but it's clearly sex, between two guys. Someone else I friended today says she thinks of the main characters as AU Sanzo and Goku. I wouldn't go that far but there certainly are similarities.
I understand that there's back and forth between Koumyou and Ukoku but still can't see them being intimate. Ukoku might want it but I don't see Koumyou agreeing to it unless under some very odd circumstances, like drugs or mind control.
I've heard of Alfred Kinsey and his studies. I don't know what his scale is. What's the upper limit?
I'd be interested in knowing why you think Sanzo is gay. I have my own theories but I'd be interested in yours.
Edited to add: Where is Hakkai shown as wanting to settle down with a woman again? In the Burial arc? Because, as one of the kink meme contributions written by a friend of mine demonstrated, I don't see that working unless it's a youkai female like Yaone. Even after they stop the Minus Wave, what human female is going to marry a youkai man even with power limiters? Everyone's going to know what the limiters are. Can he be himself around her? Wouldn't he be afraid he'd hurt her if he took the limiters off? I think the marrying a human female ship has sailed.
That's why, short of a youkai like Yaone, I can't see Hakkai with anyone other than a member of the ikkou. Sanzo's human but with his gun and tough guy attitude he could still control Hakkai, plus Hakkai has psychological reasons to want to hold back. Gojyo's half-youkai and Seiten Taisei is more than a match for youkai!Hakkai. BTW, does Gojyo ever youkai out and when he does, what's it like?
The icon is from a Gravitation novel that is rated OT. This drawing is the last one in the book. The novel is pretty bad but I find the fact that she got away with that drawing rather amzing. It's more explicit than the drawings in the manga. The mangaka does hardcore doujinshi of her own characters as well, including a number for Gravitation. Some are too extreme for me but I like most of them, especially the ones with the main characters.
Yeah, there's not much to Ouran. But I like a little light-hearted humor in between some of the more serious mangas like Saiyuki.
I couldn't see Koumyou going for Ukoku either. Just because he lets Ukoku hang around and doesn't kill him doesn't mean they're fucking each other.
The Kinsey Scale goers from 0 to 6. 0 being completely heterosexual and 6 being completely homosexual. So, like I was saying, I don't think he's completely gay... but almost. It's just in the way he acts around women. You don't see him around them very often, but on the rare occasion that he's in the company of one, it doesn't seem to have any effect on him at all. I could go into more detail about it I guess, but that might take awhile.
Hakkai made a comment somewhere in the Reload series (but not in the burial arc) to the effect of: "The next time I'm with a woman, she will have to be indestructible. She'll be happy to have my children one after the other, and still order me around the house when I get home." (It's not an exact quote, but something like that.) It was more speculation on his part than anything else, and he didn't say whether the woman would be youkai or human.
I'm not necessarily saying it would happen, and I agree that it's more likely for him to be with one of the ikkou members, or Yaone. But, supposing that they succeeded in their quest to return Shangrila to normal (because I doubt he'd try to do anything while they're still on the journey) and that he was able to find a woman (either youkai or human) who would accept him for what he was, then I don't see any problem with it.
Gojyo doesn't change form at all, as far as I know. He just is what he is. But I think it's better that way. He's got enough to worry about already, yeah?
If your interest is something (more) light-hearted, read Gravitation in manga form rather than watching the anime. There's more straight out angst in the anime (which isn't complete anyhow; it was produced mid-series) and I don't find it as funny anyway; besides, the leads personalities' are all exaggerated out of proportion. I'm not as big a fan of the anime anyway, but if you want respite, read the manga. It's amazing how the mangaka can combine angst and humor so that you get the underlying emotional pain but it's still funny.
My reasons for thinking Sanzo is not a good candidate for a relationship with a woman - and it's based as much if not more on relationship issues than sexual attraction, since that's something I can't really parse here, unlike with, say, Gojyo, or even Hakkai - are (1) he's hardly ever been around them, thus not used to interacting with them, and (2) he can't completely be himself around them. Sanzo's socially awkward to begin with (or maybe I should say has a less than charming personality, at least on the surface); he'd feel and act even more awkward in circumstances he's not used to. He is polite and respectful toward women (at least relatively) but that's involves his repressing his normal behavior patterns. Most women would probably be driven away by what appears to be verbal abuse (assuming he wouldn't use the harisen or gun on them) before realizing he does it to vent. Plus a clingy, "you're my hero" type of woman would just drive him batty anyway. Personality-wise, I can't see him drawn to a woman who wasn't badass in some way.
As for sexual attraction, which is what I think you're talking about, I'm more comfortable parsing interest than lack of interest. Sanzo could just be the kind of guy who's been taught to be chivalrous and not a dog, thus explaining the difference between Gojyo and him when it comes to Shunrei, about which Gojyo makes a remark and suggests that if he doesn't find her attractive he must be gay.
I could see chivalry being the monks', and Koumyou's in particular, attitude toward women. Other than his obvious affection for Goku, however you interpret it, he doesn't show an interest in men or women (that I've seen, at least) or expressed an opinion on anyone's attractiveness. I don't think his rejecting the advances of the man in the restaurant when he was looking for Cho Gonou tells us anything about his sexual orientation either, since Sanzo's going to reject come-ons irrespective of gender.
I get a sense that he dislikes his looks because he gets mistaken as female and receives come-ons and other forms of unwelcome attention as a result of it. Am I right about his not liking his looks or am I extrapolating from fanfiction?
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like angst. In fact most of the series I'm into are pretty dark, more or less. Some worse than Saiyuki. But I also like a little humor to balance it all out. Gravitation sounds like an interesting mix of both.
I agree with your reasoning. Sanzo's hardly ever been around women, he's awkward around them, and even though he's very respectful of them he doesn't seem to be able to identify with them the same way he can with other guys. A clingy woman would definitely annoy the hell out of him, so I agree that if he ever was interested in a woman, she'd have to be the type who can take care of herself.
I always kinda agreed with Gojyo when he brought up the comment about Sanzo being gay if he wasn't attracted to Shunrei. The interesting thing isn't that Gojyo said it, but that Sanzo avoided the question. He didn't get angry, or shout that he wasn't gay. He just looked annoyed and threatened to shoot Gojyo. I think that's a dead giveaway right there. Sanzo doesn't hesitate to point it out when someone's wrong, after all. In this case, I think he just doesn't want to admit that Gojyo is right.
I'm sure that Sanzo dislikes people talking about his looks, especially when they compare him to women, but I don't think he actually dislikes the way he looks. After all, he could change his looks easily, if he wanted to. He could cut his hair shorter or let it grow longer, he could grow a mustache or a beard so that he looks more masculine... he could do any number of things, really. But he doesn't. This suggests to me that he has a very aesthetic sense of beauty and enjoys looking the way he does, even if he hates it when people point it out (because that makes it sound like they're hitting on him, right? And he hates that).
I also think he's kind of vain in a sense. Because he hates being compared to an old guy (as sometimes happens) and gets really annoyed at any mention of age or wrinkles. He obviously wants to maintain his youthful beauty, even if people do make fun of him for it~♥
Finally getting back to older posts now that I have a better computer (or should I say keyboard) to work with.
I'll have to pay more attention, but I thought Sanzo didn't only just threaten to shoot Gojyo, but actually tried it occasionally. If it's just an empty threat, that's one thing.
Another LJ friend of mine interprets that scene differently (I think) or at least thinks it says something not so nice about Gojyo that he felt like the need to make the remark. She's the same one, though, who thinks Sanzo can't be completely himself around women.
Oh yeah, Sanzo usually does try to shoot at Gojyo when he's getting on his nerves. But he didn't in that one instance, and that's what makes it seem incriminating to me. Of course, as a psychology student, I'm going to see it a bit differently than most people would.
As far as Gojyo is concerned, I figure he's just teasing Sanzo like he always does. There are plenty of times in the series that he teases Sanzo about being gay or effeminate, but he just makes those comments to get on Sanzo's nerves. I don't think it's because he's actually homophobic or anything.
My friend took it as homophobic, I believe, especially given Gojyo's notorious flirtatiousness and womanizing. I think she also thinks (though I also think) that the flirtatiousness might be him protesting too much. Then again, when he was essentially a homeless thrown away teen, it wouldn't surprise me if he slept with men as well as women in barter exchange for a place to stay and a warm meal.
I wish I could remember where I heard this, but somewhere in the fandom (I think maybe in the Saiyuubito Q&A) Minekura had said something about Gojyo's past occupation as a sex worker. The original translation was 'gigolo' but one of the fans who spoke Japanese said it was probably closer to 'male prostitute', it's just that we don't have a word for that.
So yeah, I agree that it's most likely that Gojyo's been with guys before.
Yes, now that you mention it I remember that. I'm not sure if the original translation was pimp or gigolo but gigolo can mean escort, i.e., male escort, i.e., prostitute (though not a street prostitute). Some male escorts do confine themselves to women, but as a street kid I can't see him having that kind of leverage.
That could also explain his consistent womanizing. Like Eiri Yuki in Gravitation, who had a crush/fell in love with his tutor and then was raped by people his tutor conspired with, he might be compensating for his past. And also his remark about never before bringing a man to his bed. Probably he worked elsewhere, for one thing.
Somehow it never rang true to me that Hakkai was his first, although I think he'd let Hakkai make the first move given how messed up the man was.
I think maybe in the past Gojyo was the one that the other guys brought into their own beds (or seedy hotels rooms, as the cases may be). But yeah, I can't imagine that Hakkai was his first. I agree that he'd probably wait for Hakkai to make the first move, too.
Secondly, welcome to the Saiyuki fandom. I've known about it for... eh, about four or five years now, I guess. But I only became really involved about a year ago. Now I'm obsessed with it, and even though I do read other series Saiyuki is about the only one I do fanworks on. Never read Gravitation. I know a lot of people who have, though. Maybe I should look into it?
Yeah, I'm a Christian. A mormon to be exact. Which probably doesn't make much sense because I smoke, drink, curse, masturbate... oh, and there's the little matter of my sexuality and gender identity. Yeah.... In spite of that, I actually have a lot of faith. I just believe that God loves all his children and not only some of them. Organized religion is a touch-and-go thing with me, but I believe in God regardless of all the stupid things that human beings do in his name.
Admittedly, 383 is my OTP, but I like a lot of the other pairings as well. Mostly 585 and 353, but I'm open to pairing Goku with people too. (And I might have some 898 or 595 up here eventually, so you might want to avoid that?) I used to be squicked by 393, but I'm not anymore. It's a fairly recent development, but I've actually come to like 393 quite a bit. I think I'd like to try writing it someday. Right now I would say that the pairings that squick me the most are Ukoku/Sanzo and Sanzo/Lirin. Both of those just break my brain.
I'll go ahead and add you back, but I should warn you that I had a rough week. So, if an angsty post comes up, then consider yourself warned.
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I can see Ukoku/Sanzo if it's non-con or dub-con. I have a hard time imagining Sanzo with any woman and think Goku (who of all the ikkou I can most easily imagine settling down with the right girl/woman) would be the best match for her. I find Komyou/Ukoku harder to believe because I just can't see Koumyou being Ukoku's lover, but then again I haven't read the Burial arc yet either. All I know of Ukoku (as opposed to Nii) is the snippet we get at the end of the Kami-sama arc and what's in Reload volumes 9 and 10, which I've read on saiyuki_manga. I've read all of Gensomaden and vols. 1 and 2 of Reload but don't own any Reload volumes yet.
Edited to add: My icon is from Gravitation. I encourage you to read it. While it has pscyhological depth and a characer who is even more messed up than Sanzo, with a similar demeanor, it also has a lot of crack which sometimes drives people away, as it's basically a comedy/romance with the angst/drama coming in third. It has more and better female characters than Saiyuki though, which is ironic considering it's a true BL title rather than slash. It also has a MtF transgender character, though I can't guarantee she's all that accurately depicted.
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You ever heard of the Kinsey scale? I think Sanzo would be a five. Not completely gay, but close enough that he probably never really thinks about women like that. It would take a very special sort of woman to get his attention, if any of them could at all. I definitely agree about Goku/Lirin, too... although Hakkai is probably the one I could see settling down with a woman more than anyone else. He already did it once after all, and he obviously wants to again.
I can't see Koumyou being Ukoku's lover either, but I get why some people can. I've read through the whole series, including the pages at saiyuki_manga, so maybe that helps? I like the mind-play between those two, but I really don't think they're quite that intimate.
Hm.... Well, Gravitation sounds interesting. Crack is good. I'm actually a big fan of Ouran High School Host Club as well, and that series is chock full of crack. More female characters is good too, and it's rare to see trans people of any kind. Yeah, I think I'll check it out when I have the time. Thanks for the recommendation.
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I understand that there's back and forth between Koumyou and Ukoku but still can't see them being intimate. Ukoku might want it but I don't see Koumyou agreeing to it unless under some very odd circumstances, like drugs or mind control.
I've heard of Alfred Kinsey and his studies. I don't know what his scale is. What's the upper limit?
I'd be interested in knowing why you think Sanzo is gay. I have my own theories but I'd be interested in yours.
Edited to add: Where is Hakkai shown as wanting to settle down with a woman again? In the Burial arc? Because, as one of the kink meme contributions written by a friend of mine demonstrated, I don't see that working unless it's a youkai female like Yaone. Even after they stop the Minus Wave, what human female is going to marry a youkai man even with power limiters? Everyone's going to know what the limiters are. Can he be himself around her? Wouldn't he be afraid he'd hurt her if he took the limiters off? I think the marrying a human female ship has sailed.
That's why, short of a youkai like Yaone, I can't see Hakkai with anyone other than a member of the ikkou. Sanzo's human but with his gun and tough guy attitude he could still control Hakkai, plus Hakkai has psychological reasons to want to hold back. Gojyo's half-youkai and Seiten Taisei is more than a match for youkai!Hakkai. BTW, does Gojyo ever youkai out and when he does, what's it like?
The icon is from a Gravitation novel that is rated OT. This drawing is the last one in the book. The novel is pretty bad but I find the fact that she got away with that drawing rather amzing. It's more explicit than the drawings in the manga. The mangaka does hardcore doujinshi of her own characters as well, including a number for Gravitation. Some are too extreme for me but I like most of them, especially the ones with the main characters.
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I couldn't see Koumyou going for Ukoku either. Just because he lets Ukoku hang around and doesn't kill him doesn't mean they're fucking each other.
The Kinsey Scale goers from 0 to 6. 0 being completely heterosexual and 6 being completely homosexual. So, like I was saying, I don't think he's completely gay... but almost. It's just in the way he acts around women. You don't see him around them very often, but on the rare occasion that he's in the company of one, it doesn't seem to have any effect on him at all. I could go into more detail about it I guess, but that might take awhile.
Hakkai made a comment somewhere in the Reload series (but not in the burial arc) to the effect of: "The next time I'm with a woman, she will have to be indestructible. She'll be happy to have my children one after the other, and still order me around the house when I get home." (It's not an exact quote, but something like that.) It was more speculation on his part than anything else, and he didn't say whether the woman would be youkai or human.
I'm not necessarily saying it would happen, and I agree that it's more likely for him to be with one of the ikkou members, or Yaone. But, supposing that they succeeded in their quest to return Shangrila to normal (because I doubt he'd try to do anything while they're still on the journey) and that he was able to find a woman (either youkai or human) who would accept him for what he was, then I don't see any problem with it.
Gojyo doesn't change form at all, as far as I know. He just is what he is. But I think it's better that way. He's got enough to worry about already, yeah?
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My reasons for thinking Sanzo is not a good candidate for a relationship with a woman - and it's based as much if not more on relationship issues than sexual attraction, since that's something I can't really parse here, unlike with, say, Gojyo, or even Hakkai - are (1) he's hardly ever been around them, thus not used to interacting with them, and (2) he can't completely be himself around them. Sanzo's socially awkward to begin with (or maybe I should say has a less than charming personality, at least on the surface); he'd feel and act even more awkward in circumstances he's not used to. He is polite and respectful toward women (at least relatively) but that's involves his repressing his normal behavior patterns. Most women would probably be driven away by what appears to be verbal abuse (assuming he wouldn't use the harisen or gun on them) before realizing he does it to vent. Plus a clingy, "you're my hero" type of woman would just drive him batty anyway. Personality-wise, I can't see him drawn to a woman who wasn't badass in some way.
As for sexual attraction, which is what I think you're talking about, I'm more comfortable parsing interest than lack of interest. Sanzo could just be the kind of guy who's been taught to be chivalrous and not a dog, thus explaining the difference between Gojyo and him when it comes to Shunrei, about which Gojyo makes a remark and suggests that if he doesn't find her attractive he must be gay.
I could see chivalry being the monks', and Koumyou's in particular, attitude toward women. Other than his obvious affection for Goku, however you interpret it, he doesn't show an interest in men or women (that I've seen, at least) or expressed an opinion on anyone's attractiveness. I don't think his rejecting the advances of the man in the restaurant when he was looking for Cho Gonou tells us anything about his sexual orientation either, since Sanzo's going to reject come-ons irrespective of gender.
I get a sense that he dislikes his looks because he gets mistaken as female and receives come-ons and other forms of unwelcome attention as a result of it. Am I right about his not liking his looks or am I extrapolating from fanfiction?
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I agree with your reasoning. Sanzo's hardly ever been around women, he's awkward around them, and even though he's very respectful of them he doesn't seem to be able to identify with them the same way he can with other guys. A clingy woman would definitely annoy the hell out of him, so I agree that if he ever was interested in a woman, she'd have to be the type who can take care of herself.
I always kinda agreed with Gojyo when he brought up the comment about Sanzo being gay if he wasn't attracted to Shunrei. The interesting thing isn't that Gojyo said it, but that Sanzo avoided the question. He didn't get angry, or shout that he wasn't gay. He just looked annoyed and threatened to shoot Gojyo. I think that's a dead giveaway right there. Sanzo doesn't hesitate to point it out when someone's wrong, after all. In this case, I think he just doesn't want to admit that Gojyo is right.
I'm sure that Sanzo dislikes people talking about his looks, especially when they compare him to women, but I don't think he actually dislikes the way he looks. After all, he could change his looks easily, if he wanted to. He could cut his hair shorter or let it grow longer, he could grow a mustache or a beard so that he looks more masculine... he could do any number of things, really. But he doesn't. This suggests to me that he has a very aesthetic sense of beauty and enjoys looking the way he does, even if he hates it when people point it out (because that makes it sound like they're hitting on him, right? And he hates that).
I also think he's kind of vain in a sense. Because he hates being compared to an old guy (as sometimes happens) and gets really annoyed at any mention of age or wrinkles. He obviously wants to maintain his youthful beauty, even if people do make fun of him for it~♥
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I'll have to pay more attention, but I thought Sanzo didn't only just threaten to shoot Gojyo, but actually tried it occasionally. If it's just an empty threat, that's one thing.
Another LJ friend of mine interprets that scene differently (I think) or at least thinks it says something not so nice about Gojyo that he felt like the need to make the remark. She's the same one, though, who thinks Sanzo can't be completely himself around women.
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As far as Gojyo is concerned, I figure he's just teasing Sanzo like he always does. There are plenty of times in the series that he teases Sanzo about being gay or effeminate, but he just makes those comments to get on Sanzo's nerves. I don't think it's because he's actually homophobic or anything.
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So yeah, I agree that it's most likely that Gojyo's been with guys before.
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That could also explain his consistent womanizing. Like Eiri Yuki in Gravitation, who had a crush/fell in love with his tutor and then was raped by people his tutor conspired with, he might be compensating for his past. And also his remark about never before bringing a man to his bed. Probably he worked elsewhere, for one thing.
Somehow it never rang true to me that Hakkai was his first, although I think he'd let Hakkai make the first move given how messed up the man was.
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