I am interested, I won't go so far as to say I don't care what they do...I just hope that, yes, it fits and that they don't make everything too much about this long lost family because I feel like Sam and Dean already have a family and the Campbells weren't there for them when they really needed it. Exactly! If the Campbells are so famous, how come no one has heard of or mentioned them?! Not even Bobby!
I am going to be praying they don't get rid of the boys patchwork family. Bobby has been through waaaay too much with them to just be pushed away and forgotten about, and I feel the same way about Cas.
Everything is going to come back to Lisa and Ben somehow where Dean is concerned, I feel. I have always wanted to see more of Dean being paternal (we know he practically raised Sam after all) but not like this...I dunno I feel like we are losing the Dean that we've grown accustomed to over the past five years.
Cas really would have shaken things up a bit. And I have a crazy yearning to see Cas with a kid I made it worse by writing it in my fic, I know I did... and kind of learning things.
I'm sorry, it is depressing news :( *hugs*
Ah! I thought that too, she doesn't come across as particularly genuine or passionate about the show I don't think. Things I have read/heard her say tend to be rather flippant or have an air that she doesn't really care. Her love of Sam though, and making him the main protagonist, isn't for me...Dean has always been my favourite and changing Dean drastically in order to flip their roles just isn't cool.
I am completely with you on that thinking. I too get the feel that she brought Lisa back because she created her, she is the only one I have heard/read saying that Lisa is a character in her own right with her own POV...which is bullshit. She can't just make it canon because she developed the character more in her head! We haven't seen any of that...she is a weak, one-sided character, I feel. And I hate that they are making her seem so important, I get that it's about the family unit with Dean but they are making it out like he really loves her when in actual fact they don't know anything about one another. Gah! It really, really bothers me that both Sera and Jense have said that Dean has been thinking about Lisa often when we never saw any of that. If they had wanted it seem believable they should have slipped more in occasionally (but it doesn't fit, not in the slightest which is why it was so wtf? at the end of 99 Problems) but still...it makes no sense for Lisa to just be sitting around waiting for him to show up like she has no life...
I think Cas knew he couldn't stay...he knew that Dean was pushing him away and didn't want him around. It just makes me sad that it had to come to that...I wish Dean could have leant on the people who have been there for him rather than run away. But yes, I do think he is pushing the hunting life behind him (which is why the Impala is under tarp and probably why he hasn't spoken to Bobby for some time either). God I'd love for him to be having a sexual identity freakout... As it is, I don't think there is any reason for Dean to push Cas away like he did.
I too hope everything comes together and they put all my worries and fears to rest *nods*
I have quite missed rambling long comments about Supernatural lol :D
Yeah... I feel like a lot of this season is going to be spent worrying about whether or not new aspects are going to fit, rather than just anticipating the next problem or seeing what happens. I've never had to worry about a season before (except if Cas was gonna die lol), and I don't like thinking "Oh God, I hope this fits, as well as that. And this better all come together!" :o/ That makes me kinda worried.
But yes! Mary being a hunter was so hush-hush...would that have been possible if the Campbells were famous? If the boys were Winchesters, and that's a pretty famous/infamous name in the current hunting world, wouldn't other hunters know that John WINCHESTER was married to Mary CAMPBELL... and thus the connection would've been brought up before if the Campbell name was huge? And hell, Bobby knows tons about hunting... sure, he wasn't hunting forever (I'm curious as to when he actually became a hunter... like a year... do we ever get that?) and so while he may not have been a hunter for the Campbell era, you'd think he'd have knowledge of it.
If they get rid of the patchwork family, I will be so disappointed (personally, not just as a writer haha).
Yup. Guaranteed everything's gonna tie in to Lisa. *barfs* Which is a shame... I feel like Lisa's being put in as a giant symbol. Like "Look everyone! Dean has a family unit now! On screen! See how this ties in to his wanting a family!" when we really don't NEED that. His instincts have been there throughout the 5 seasons, and the writers should trust that their viewers are smart enough to make the connection between Dean's past and loss of family to his present yearning for one, without needing a constant presence of that in the form of a blatantly symbolic character (who is no more than a symbolic stand in, which is not only a cheap writing trick but also negates previous character development/storylines). *sigh* idk... I'm just really frustrated now...
haha, I did the same thing with writing Cas and Dean with a kid :oP After imagining it, how could you not want to see that? Or at least catch a glimpse of it in canon in some form or other? :o(
Oh Gamble... yeah, she's just not really who I really want in charge of the show. She seems to have her own interests or plot lines or characters in mind, and that's where she's going. And come on, that thing that was posted about her saying they really aren't making fun of Twilight or liking the Vampire Diaries or whatever it was? I'm sorry, but grow a pair. Every other writer wouldn't be afraid to slight another show/movie/genre thing. That's what Supernatural does, in a sense... pokes fun at genre and horror as well as invent new genre/horror. If she can't crack it then... that (she?) is not what the show's about. *is worried* I just don't want another CW show, y'know? I want her to stand up for the show and what they're doing.
Mmhmm... I feel like they're trying to get Lisa to fit so hard within canon that it's just coming off as unnatural. I'm kind of repeating myself, but it just seems like they're trying to make everything fit instead of letting the characters tell the story (which is a big writing no-no), and then they're trying to symbolically represent Dean's desire for family life in a tangible way which (again) doesn't need to happen, perhaps shouldn't happen, and comes across as feeling off (and insulting the viewers intelligence). Blahhh... but yes, if they wanted her to be such a big part and for her to feel natural, then they should've dropped hints throughout seasons 4 and 5 (especially season 5 though) that Dean was still thinking of her. (if they really wanted to make it real, they would've had her in another episode.) But I'm actually glad they didn't do that... bc then it'd make Dean/Lisa canon for sure, and I don't like that. The writer part of me would've been placated, though. As it is, they're just trying to come up with reasons for Lisa to show up, instead of pointing to actual evidence in canon. (in other words, they're adding information outside the show and trying to make it part of the show, and that's not going to work.)
(umm oops... my comment was too long lol... I'll work on shortening my babbling :oP)
Very true with Castiel knowing Dean was pushing the hunting life away. (The poor Impala! D:) Castiel by this time knows Dean well enough to know what he needs, I think, and I think he canonically has affection for Dean (I'd argue romantic affection, but we can just go with even platonic affection and it still works), and as such knows that leaving is the best for him at the moment. And yeah, his obligations pull him to organize Heaven, so there's that, but still. Yes, it's sad that Dean was pushing the hunting life away, and Castiel knew that and had to go away. D:
Oh man... so much to think about! It's crazy, but that's why I love the show :o) Let's just hope that it continues to be complex and not just boiled down to a few elements, or previous storylines/characters are altered/eliminated :o(
Yes! Cas dying had been a worry *nods* but this is the first time I am genuinely wary of the direction they are taking the show in.
You have just made an absolutely wonderful point on Mary! Now it just makes even less sense that the Campbells were famous. Hunters would surely make the link between the Campbells and the Winchesters pretty quickly... I am actually quite curious how long Bobby has been a hunter for too. I know he was a hunter for a while before John was (just from how he went to Bobby for advice and Dean and Sam have known him from when they were very young)but it would be awesome to know more. I find it very hard to believe that Bobby wouldn't have either heard of the Campbells himself of John telling him (though I don't think John actually remembers being told that...ignore me...)
My heart will be broken if they get rid of the boys patchwork family. It was perfect because it was flawed and not what they envisioned it to be.
I too feel like she has been thrown in as a big symbol when really we know Dean enough to know that he has those instincts. We know that he is all about preserving families and missing that happy family upbringing he didn't get. We've been watching the show for five years! I thought SPN was just a little bit better than resorting to cheap writing tricks :(
Right? Dean, Cas and a kid is just too much to resist. I would have loved to have seen that, and now we probably never will.
Yes, exactly! I mean come on! The show has been quietly taking the piss out of things ever since it began! It's funny and it works for them. Gamble just worries me...she tends to always take the show in a direction I don't particularly like on her episodes (she often splits the brothers up, or introduces a girl that doesn't really work with them). I would actually much have prefered Ben Edlund to take charge, I think he gets the balance between serious and cracky just right and I feel like he writes both the brotherly and the Dean/Cas moments believably. But that's just my take on it.
I completely agree with you on Lisa. I am, too, glad that they didn't bring Lisa in on S4 or 5 earlier, though it would have made more sense to the writer in me xD. And yes, I hate that they are adding information outside of the show and acting like we should know that is canon when really it isn't. You can't make shit up on the sidelines and then force it in like it's always been there! I honestly think this was a Sera Gamble idea in the writers room when this plot was discussed.
I don't know if sometimes some of the writers forget how well Cas knows Dean, but yes he canonically has affection for Dean (I do think he undoubtedly loves him, what kind of love is up for debate, but Cas knows there's a line, he knows there's a side to Dean he can't--or doesn't think he can--know intimately). He needed to give Dean his space and he knew that--and he left with a warning, just to let Dean know that he got what he wanted, it just didn't go down the way he planned--but a year with nothing still seems like so long for both of them. I just hope that the writers don't forget all the wonderful development between these two, and have Cas too focused on the ideal of Heaven...because one of the things about Cas is that Dean has always been the one he makes an exception for.
I hope it continues to be complex too. I don't want the show to boil down to Dean running away to his 'family' and Sam off with his grandad and both brothers appearing half-naked once an episode...And I really hope they don't start retconning things all over the place.
Yeah... see, I love that Mary's a hunter, but trying to make the family so big and work everything in is kind of not fitting with previous seasons info. But I guess that's just the nature of a tv show? where they have to come up with stuff to keep it going but can't look too far ahead incase it gets canceled (which then forces the whole searching for ways to draw out the plot thing). But yeah, still... they could've made it work a bit better. And I, too, want to know more about the past with Bobby.
Yes! See, that's why I loved their family, and what I really hope this season ends with... their family isn't perfect, it isn't Apple Pie, it isn't "normal," but it works for them and is THEM and allows them to be who they really are. Sure, it's fraught with angst and danger, but at the same time they can be who they are, not some cookie cutter family/people. *sigh*
Edlund would've been my first choice, too. I like his episodes, and yeah, he manages to balance the humor/spoof with serious and gore and horror, and I think he gets the show like Kripke did. Bahh... Gamble :o/
I have no doubt that this was all Gamble's idea. I mean, it's her character, blah blah blah, and it's just like adding what she thought of the character into the show and other people were like "Oh, that's what you thought with that character? well, i guess that could work... Hmm" and went with it to change things up like she/they might've been pushing. I do not approve.
Yeah, it's weird because I think there's this split... I feel like some episodes we get fabulous Dean and Castiel interraction and development, but then other writers just forget that that's important too. Like, they're so stuck on the "but it's a story about the brothers" aspect of the show that they forget that that doesn't mean Dean can't have a friend like Cas and Castiel can't be a major, positively influential character in the show. It's kinda sad. There should be a handbook for writers saying "Castiel likes Dean, he is Dean's friend, so interaction between them will take that into consideration." or something.
I like the point that you made about Cas knowing there's a line with Dean... and yeah, he doesn't cross it and knows when to draw back. (he knows Dean better than anyone... better than Sam, I think, in some respects.) But yeah, a year is long. I don't think he'd just go up to Heaven and not think about Dean. & yeah, Heaven's probably crazy (and I'm actually curious as to the reception Castiel gets upon returning to Heaven - he did kill his brothers - so there could be that threat to him as well... but I'm gonna save that for my Cas post lol :oP), so he'll be preoccupied. But... he's got to have thought of Dean while up in Heaven. Because yeah, Dean was the one Castiel saw something in to go against Heaven for... so why wouldn't he think of him?
I totally agree with your last statement... let's hope we are pleasantly surprised *crosses fingers and toes*
I am going to be praying they don't get rid of the boys patchwork family. Bobby has been through waaaay too much with them to just be pushed away and forgotten about, and I feel the same way about Cas.
Everything is going to come back to Lisa and Ben somehow where Dean is concerned, I feel. I have always wanted to see more of Dean being paternal (we know he practically raised Sam after all) but not like this...I dunno I feel like we are losing the Dean that we've grown accustomed to over the past five years.
Cas really would have shaken things up a bit. And I have a crazy yearning to see Cas with a kid I made it worse by writing it in my fic, I know I did... and kind of learning things.
I'm sorry, it is depressing news :( *hugs*
Ah! I thought that too, she doesn't come across as particularly genuine or passionate about the show I don't think. Things I have read/heard her say tend to be rather flippant or have an air that she doesn't really care. Her love of Sam though, and making him the main protagonist, isn't for me...Dean has always been my favourite and changing Dean drastically in order to flip their roles just isn't cool.
I am completely with you on that thinking. I too get the feel that she brought Lisa back because she created her, she is the only one I have heard/read saying that Lisa is a character in her own right with her own POV...which is bullshit. She can't just make it canon because she developed the character more in her head! We haven't seen any of that...she is a weak, one-sided character, I feel. And I hate that they are making her seem so important, I get that it's about the family unit with Dean but they are making it out like he really loves her when in actual fact they don't know anything about one another. Gah!
It really, really bothers me that both Sera and Jense have said that Dean has been thinking about Lisa often when we never saw any of that. If they had wanted it seem believable they should have slipped more in occasionally (but it doesn't fit, not in the slightest which is why it was so wtf? at the end of 99 Problems) but still...it makes no sense for Lisa to just be sitting around waiting for him to show up like she has no life...
I think Cas knew he couldn't stay...he knew that Dean was pushing him away and didn't want him around. It just makes me sad that it had to come to that...I wish Dean could have leant on the people who have been there for him rather than run away. But yes, I do think he is pushing the hunting life behind him (which is why the Impala is under tarp and probably why he hasn't spoken to Bobby for some time either). God I'd love for him to be having a sexual identity freakout... As it is, I don't think there is any reason for Dean to push Cas away like he did.
I too hope everything comes together and they put all my worries and fears to rest *nods*
I have quite missed rambling long comments about Supernatural lol :D
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But yes! Mary being a hunter was so hush-hush...would that have been possible if the Campbells were famous? If the boys were Winchesters, and that's a pretty famous/infamous name in the current hunting world, wouldn't other hunters know that John WINCHESTER was married to Mary CAMPBELL... and thus the connection would've been brought up before if the Campbell name was huge? And hell, Bobby knows tons about hunting... sure, he wasn't hunting forever (I'm curious as to when he actually became a hunter... like a year... do we ever get that?) and so while he may not have been a hunter for the Campbell era, you'd think he'd have knowledge of it.
If they get rid of the patchwork family, I will be so disappointed (personally, not just as a writer haha).
Yup. Guaranteed everything's gonna tie in to Lisa. *barfs* Which is a shame... I feel like Lisa's being put in as a giant symbol. Like "Look everyone! Dean has a family unit now! On screen! See how this ties in to his wanting a family!" when we really don't NEED that. His instincts have been there throughout the 5 seasons, and the writers should trust that their viewers are smart enough to make the connection between Dean's past and loss of family to his present yearning for one, without needing a constant presence of that in the form of a blatantly symbolic character (who is no more than a symbolic stand in, which is not only a cheap writing trick but also negates previous character development/storylines). *sigh* idk... I'm just really frustrated now...
haha, I did the same thing with writing Cas and Dean with a kid :oP After imagining it, how could you not want to see that? Or at least catch a glimpse of it in canon in some form or other? :o(
Oh Gamble... yeah, she's just not really who I really want in charge of the show. She seems to have her own interests or plot lines or characters in mind, and that's where she's going. And come on, that thing that was posted about her saying they really aren't making fun of Twilight or liking the Vampire Diaries or whatever it was? I'm sorry, but grow a pair. Every other writer wouldn't be afraid to slight another show/movie/genre thing. That's what Supernatural does, in a sense... pokes fun at genre and horror as well as invent new genre/horror. If she can't crack it then... that (she?) is not what the show's about. *is worried* I just don't want another CW show, y'know? I want her to stand up for the show and what they're doing.
Mmhmm... I feel like they're trying to get Lisa to fit so hard within canon that it's just coming off as unnatural. I'm kind of repeating myself, but it just seems like they're trying to make everything fit instead of letting the characters tell the story (which is a big writing no-no), and then they're trying to symbolically represent Dean's desire for family life in a tangible way which (again) doesn't need to happen, perhaps shouldn't happen, and comes across as feeling off (and insulting the viewers intelligence). Blahhh... but yes, if they wanted her to be such a big part and for her to feel natural, then they should've dropped hints throughout seasons 4 and 5 (especially season 5 though) that Dean was still thinking of her. (if they really wanted to make it real, they would've had her in another episode.) But I'm actually glad they didn't do that... bc then it'd make Dean/Lisa canon for sure, and I don't like that. The writer part of me would've been placated, though. As it is, they're just trying to come up with reasons for Lisa to show up, instead of pointing to actual evidence in canon. (in other words, they're adding information outside the show and trying to make it part of the show, and that's not going to work.)
.......
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Very true with Castiel knowing Dean was pushing the hunting life away. (The poor Impala! D:) Castiel by this time knows Dean well enough to know what he needs, I think, and I think he canonically has affection for Dean (I'd argue romantic affection, but we can just go with even platonic affection and it still works), and as such knows that leaving is the best for him at the moment. And yeah, his obligations pull him to organize Heaven, so there's that, but still. Yes, it's sad that Dean was pushing the hunting life away, and Castiel knew that and had to go away. D:
Oh man... so much to think about! It's crazy, but that's why I love the show :o) Let's just hope that it continues to be complex and not just boiled down to a few elements, or previous storylines/characters are altered/eliminated :o(
hehe, same here ;o)
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Yes! Cas dying had been a worry *nods* but this is the first time I am genuinely wary of the direction they are taking the show in.
You have just made an absolutely wonderful point on Mary! Now it just makes even less sense that the Campbells were famous. Hunters would surely make the link between the Campbells and the Winchesters pretty quickly...
I am actually quite curious how long Bobby has been a hunter for too. I know he was a hunter for a while before John was (just from how he went to Bobby for advice and Dean and Sam have known him from when they were very young)but it would be awesome to know more. I find it very hard to believe that Bobby wouldn't have either heard of the Campbells himself of John telling him (though I don't think John actually remembers being told that...ignore me...)
My heart will be broken if they get rid of the boys patchwork family. It was perfect because it was flawed and not what they envisioned it to be.
I too feel like she has been thrown in as a big symbol when really we know Dean enough to know that he has those instincts. We know that he is all about preserving families and missing that happy family upbringing he didn't get. We've been watching the show for five years! I thought SPN was just a little bit better than resorting to cheap writing tricks :(
Right? Dean, Cas and a kid is just too much to resist. I would have loved to have seen that, and now we probably never will.
Yes, exactly! I mean come on! The show has been quietly taking the piss out of things ever since it began! It's funny and it works for them. Gamble just worries me...she tends to always take the show in a direction I don't particularly like on her episodes (she often splits the brothers up, or introduces a girl that doesn't really work with them). I would actually much have prefered Ben Edlund to take charge, I think he gets the balance between serious and cracky just right and I feel like he writes both the brotherly and the Dean/Cas moments believably. But that's just my take on it.
I completely agree with you on Lisa. I am, too, glad that they didn't bring Lisa in on S4 or 5 earlier, though it would have made more sense to the writer in me xD. And yes, I hate that they are adding information outside of the show and acting like we should know that is canon when really it isn't. You can't make shit up on the sidelines and then force it in like it's always been there!
I honestly think this was a Sera Gamble idea in the writers room when this plot was discussed.
I don't know if sometimes some of the writers forget how well Cas knows Dean, but yes he canonically has affection for Dean (I do think he undoubtedly loves him, what kind of love is up for debate, but Cas knows there's a line, he knows there's a side to Dean he can't--or doesn't think he can--know intimately). He needed to give Dean his space and he knew that--and he left with a warning, just to let Dean know that he got what he wanted, it just didn't go down the way he planned--but a year with nothing still seems like so long for both of them. I just hope that the writers don't forget all the wonderful development between these two, and have Cas too focused on the ideal of Heaven...because one of the things about Cas is that Dean has always been the one he makes an exception for.
I hope it continues to be complex too. I don't want the show to boil down to Dean running away to his 'family' and Sam off with his grandad and both brothers appearing half-naked once an episode...And I really hope they don't start retconning things all over the place.
*le sigh*
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Yeah... see, I love that Mary's a hunter, but trying to make the family so big and work everything in is kind of not fitting with previous seasons info. But I guess that's just the nature of a tv show? where they have to come up with stuff to keep it going but can't look too far ahead incase it gets canceled (which then forces the whole searching for ways to draw out the plot thing). But yeah, still... they could've made it work a bit better. And I, too, want to know more about the past with Bobby.
Yes! See, that's why I loved their family, and what I really hope this season ends with... their family isn't perfect, it isn't Apple Pie, it isn't "normal," but it works for them and is THEM and allows them to be who they really are. Sure, it's fraught with angst and danger, but at the same time they can be who they are, not some cookie cutter family/people. *sigh*
Edlund would've been my first choice, too. I like his episodes, and yeah, he manages to balance the humor/spoof with serious and gore and horror, and I think he gets the show like Kripke did. Bahh... Gamble :o/
I have no doubt that this was all Gamble's idea. I mean, it's her character, blah blah blah, and it's just like adding what she thought of the character into the show and other people were like "Oh, that's what you thought with that character? well, i guess that could work... Hmm" and went with it to change things up like she/they might've been pushing. I do not approve.
Yeah, it's weird because I think there's this split... I feel like some episodes we get fabulous Dean and Castiel interraction and development, but then other writers just forget that that's important too. Like, they're so stuck on the "but it's a story about the brothers" aspect of the show that they forget that that doesn't mean Dean can't have a friend like Cas and Castiel can't be a major, positively influential character in the show. It's kinda sad. There should be a handbook for writers saying "Castiel likes Dean, he is Dean's friend, so interaction between them will take that into consideration." or something.
I like the point that you made about Cas knowing there's a line with Dean... and yeah, he doesn't cross it and knows when to draw back. (he knows Dean better than anyone... better than Sam, I think, in some respects.) But yeah, a year is long. I don't think he'd just go up to Heaven and not think about Dean. & yeah, Heaven's probably crazy (and I'm actually curious as to the reception Castiel gets upon returning to Heaven - he did kill his brothers - so there could be that threat to him as well... but I'm gonna save that for my Cas post lol :oP), so he'll be preoccupied. But... he's got to have thought of Dean while up in Heaven. Because yeah, Dean was the one Castiel saw something in to go against Heaven for... so why wouldn't he think of him?
I totally agree with your last statement... let's hope we are pleasantly surprised *crosses fingers and toes*
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