Ok people, I know you've all seen these commercials about HPV and how it can cause cervical cancer, but I'm here to clear up a few things about this victimized virus
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Since saying only skanks get HPV makes no comedic sense, I'm forced to believe that this is what you actually believe.
Once again, I did not say that only skanks get it. I also said that you don't have to have sex to get it...that's what "any form of sexual contact" means.
And yes, it is an extremely common virus; in fact, it's the most common viral STD. BUT there are only two types out of the 100+ strains that are associated with CC (16 and 18). Think about this anatomically: you can get it/give it from giving a blow job, but then, instead of cervical cancer, you'd get lesions in your mouth or genital warts (HPV causes those, too). So by the same token, if a girl has sex with someone who has it, the virus is then deposited in her vaginal tract, and guess what's at the top of the vagina? The cervix...and most cervical cancers are caused by an HPV infection. Wanna know what the other risk factors for CC are? Early sexual experience, multiple partners, HIV infection, unprotected sex, smoking, and poor diet.
And this isn't from some random medical website; this is from two of my textbooks.
Sure, you could accidentally bump into someone on the street with an open lesion and contract it, the same is true of HIV, but how often does that really happen?
Once again, am I saying that only promiscuous girls get it? No, though all evidence may point to the contrary. I'm simply laying out the facts that I've been taught over the past year in nursing school. And I'm sorry if the way I've presented this makes it sound like I'm calling your sister a slut. That is not my intention. I realize it's hard to accept something when it hits a little too close to home...like when my mom casually eludes to the fact that my obesity is going to make me end up like my father. But that's why it's called 'cold, harsh reality' and not 'warm, fuzzy loose interpretation of the truth.'
According to recent research, twelve strains of the 30ish sexually-transmitted strains can cause cervical cancer (along with other cancers). I'm not sure about those particular strains, but can't papillomavirus infections occur from contaminated surfaces, not just direct contact? I'm almost surprised at how neglected research in this area has been, given how freakishly evil DNA viruses are. I also think that commercial seemed to have come dangerously close to using a cuddly stuffed animal of some sort. Perhaps Snuggles demanded too high a pay for the advert.
Where are you getting this "recent" research? If it's from the internet, well.....hmph. I trust my nursing textbooks over the internet any day. A virus can't survive very long on a surface. It needs a host to survive. The HIV virus can only live about 6 hours on a toilet seat...and there are at least skin cells on a toilet seat to keep it alive. And this research isn't neglected. They've known about this for years. HPV has been recognized as the cause of over 95% of cervical cancers. That's why women are supposed to go to the gynecologist annually to get tested for it. That's what the "pap" in "pap smear" means: papanicolaou. They're teaching this stuff to first level nursing students; it's not a new discovery.
Well, I'm not under any illusions as to how she caught it. She caught it through one of the four people she's had sex with. It's as simple as that. I'm simply pointing out that it's not just common among promiscuous people; it's common among EVERYBODY. It's common to the point where it's easy to get it without whoring around. Don't change your story now, that's the opposite of what you were saying. Maybe you regret that, and I wouldn't blame you, but the fact of the matter is you were saying mainly sluts get HPV. Which is ludicrous.
Has nothing to do with the fact that it hits close to home, as far as the facts are concerned, although that did contribute to my choosing to speak up in the first place. Really, it's as simple as: you were trying to pigeonhole it as primarily a result of promiscuity, and that's simply not true. It's not the clap or AIDS or gonorrhea. It's way, way common among average folks. Just like the commercial says.
Ok, I'm going to say a few more things, then I want this to be over.
1. Yes, I admit, I was trying to make the point that they're sugar-coating a taboo subject. It IS an STD. It's documented as an STD. And like my textbook said, it's the most common viral STD. And the more people you sleep with, the more likely you are to get it. It's a positive correlation.
2. The thing that gets to me about the commercial is that they're making it sound like a new discovery. It's not. It's been around for ages. Why do you think women are supposed to go to the gynecologist once a year for a pap smear? Did you think the 'pap' in 'pap smear' and the 'pap' in 'papilloma' were unrelated? And what do all these women think they were going to the GYN for? Just a random annual cunt-probe for shits and giggles? I wouldn't want to undergo something that incredibly uncomfortable every year unless it was for a damn good reason. They're also making it sound like you can get cervical cancer if someone sneezes on you. Also not true. Viruses are spread through an exchange of bodily fluids containing live cells (which is why saliva doesn't count). Modes of transmission include sharing needles, direct contact between two open wounds, or an open wound and a mucous membrane, and SEX.
3. The recommended age/time for a girl to start getting pap smears is age 18 OR sexually active, whichever comes FIRST, because doctors KNOW that's how this thing is spread. Case in point: 2 weeks ago at my annual crotch-probe, my doctor said to me, "Since you haven't become sexually active yet, would you be interested in the HPV vaccination?" Now, if this was such a common virus that you can get anywhere, why hasn't my primary care physician said anything about it? Why was it only my naughty-bits doctor who brought it up? And why did she say, "since you're not sexually active" instead of "since it's so common"?
No, it's not limited to promiscuity, and I understand that, cause it only takes one time to get it...but promiscuity doesn't exactly HURT your chances. Yes, it's common, but if there are only two types out of over 100 that cause cancer, that's less than a 2% chance of getting it. Last time I checked, 2% was well below the "common" cut-off point.
If this was a bacterial infection, your argument would have much more validity, because then you COULD get cancer if someone sneezed on you. But viruses aren't so easily spread. They need a live host to survive.
[4. Don't argue pathology with a nurse. You'll lose.]
I'm not arguing pathology with you. I know all about the nature of this virus. I'm arguing with you because you said, in your first post, that HPV is a promiscuous person's disease. It isn't. Period. It's easy to get if you're promiscuous, yes. It's also easy to get if you have a normal, healthy sex life. One form or another of this damn thing is easy to get even if you're monogamous, even if you don't go all the way, even if you're just fooling around. Of course having more sex increases your chances. But just having occasional sex with someone you love like any normal, healthy person... the chances are still pretty damn high there, too.
I'm pretty sure this is not the case, but you almost seem to be taking personal offense that other people are having sex of any kind. As I said before, there's a big gray area between "celibate" and "whore". If you disagree, then yes, we should stop arguing because if we disagree on that principle, the rest is just redundant.
Hahaha! No, I'm not taking offense that people are having sex. And when did I ever disagree that there's a difference between "celibate" and "whore?" (There is a difference, however, between saying something and IMPLYING something. For example: I didn't SAY it was a promiscuous person's disease, I IMPLIED it.)
And as far as "occasional sex with someone you love like any normal, healthy person," the chances are only high if one of you got it previously from someone else then passed it on. It's not just gonna...develop out of nowhere. As with any STD, monogamous sexual partners have the least chance of contracting it.
OK, at this point the debate is getting silly. In this case, "said" and "implied" are two different words for the same thing: in your original post, you got your point across that you thought HPV was a promiscuous person's disease. It's very clear. I know; I read it.
And now you're pretty much agreeing with me: you say "the chances are only high if one of you got it previously from someone else, then passed it on". Yeah, I know how STDs work, thanks. Either you're not understanding what I'm saying or you're just restating what you've already attempted to say for purposes of making it look like you've got something new, so I'll just say it again: I understand that the less sex you have, the less likely it is you'll catch it. I really do. What I'm saying is: it's STILL common among people who have very few or only one sexual partner. Less common than among the promiscuous, but common nonetheless.
To sum up as simply as I can: you painted it as primarily a promiscuous person's disease, like AIDS or the clap. But it isn't. It affects normal, everyday people, to a slightly lesser extent yes, but still enough to be considered common. It's not something only sluts need to watch out for, as your original post made the case for. It's something EVERYONE having ANY KIND OF SEX needs to watch out for. Okay?
My original post was a piece of satire that you just took a little too personally...simple as that. You've made plenty of broad, inaccurate generalizations about women that you knew weren't true just to be funny, but you don't see me bitching about it, do you?
AIDS and the clap affect normal, everyday people to a lesser extent, too, and I think you would agree AIDS is quite common. Common means "well known," not "easy to contract."
I painted it as an STD. Because it is. That's how it's classified in every related textbook I've read in the last 12 months. How many normal, everyday-type people do you know who have STDs? I'm gonna go ahead and guess, "not so many." (Notice I didn't say "none.")
No, it's not "as simple as that". It is pretty simple, but not in the way you want it to be. You weren't doing absurdist, surrealist, or Dada humor. You are correct in that you were doing satire. Satire means you make a point in a humorous / allegorical fashion. You can't post satire and then say "Hey, lighten up, it was just a joke" because satire is NEVER "just a joke". Underneath it is always an underlying point. You had something to say and you said it with satire. Sometimes I use exaggerated humor to poke fun at women, but sometimes I use satire, and in those cases, you would most certainly have a right to bitch if you disagreed.
Example: if I posted something like "As a boy, every morning L. Ron Hubbard would get up, eat a big bowl of babies, bathe in pig vomit, and then get started on a busy day of screaming at invisible demons and kicking amputees in the throat", I'm using a satirical approach. I don't actually think L. Ron did any of those things, BUT I am making it pretty clear that I think he was a crazy, evil son of a bitch. You could object to what I wrote for really only two reasons. You could disagree morally and be one of those rare people who, for whatever reason, doesn't think eating babies is funny. Or you could disagree with me on a factual level and provide reasons why L. Ron is not an evil person. That's what I'm doing. I'm not disagreeing with you on anything but a factual level: your point was that HPV is for sluts. This is incorrect.
And no, common does not mean "well-known" in any of the conversations I've ever heard. "Common" has always meant "exists in plentiful supply", which HPV does and AIDS does not (in America). When someone means "well-known", they'll say "well-known", or "notorious" or even "infamous". Like bird flu. The media's still trying to scare us to death with bird flu stories. It's most certainly well-known in that anyone who's watched the news since the beginning of 2005 has heard of it. However, fewer than 200 people have contracted it. Definitely not common. And don't try to pull the nurse card again. I bet if I walked into a hospital tomorrow and said I have "that common virus", ebola would be pretty far down the list of things they'd test me for even though everyone's heard of it.
To sum up: I'm not objecting to your use of satire. I'm objecting to the fact that your statement behind the satire was false and misleading.
Ya know, we could argue this till the end of time and it still wouldn't be over. I'd continue to provide textual medical evidence and you'd keep right on arguing semantics.
I have no choice but to pull the nursing card because that's my background.
Now, I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy the thought of having to explain to people that I lost a good friend because of HPV, so I'm going to call this a draw. We're never going to see eye-to-eye on this and I'm tired of trying, so let's just agree that you're wrong and I'm right to disagree and let it be done with, deal?
Actually, I've only been responding to semantic arguments that you're brought up because you refuse to argue my main point. As an example, let me sum up how the debate's gone so far:
1. I make a smartass comment pointing out that you said HPV is a slut's disease, and it isn't. 2. You say you acknowledged that not everyone who gets HPV is a skank. 3. I say "Yes, but you still said that it's mainly a slut's disease, and it isn't". 4. You provide medical stats on the disease, remind me how STD's work, and say that you didn't mean that ONLY promiscuous people get it. 5. I say, "Yes, but you still said that it's MAINLY a slut's disease, and it isn't." 6. You talk about pathology and pap smears, and remind me that it's an STD. 7. I say, "Yes, but you still said that it's mainly a slut's disease, and it isn't." 8. You say that there's a difference between "said" and "implied", and you also state that HPV is more difficult to catch if you have a monogamous partner. 9. I say, "Yes, but you still got the point across that it's mainly a slut's disease, and it isn't. It's easy to catch if you're a slut. It's slightly less easy to catch, but still easy, if you're monogamous." It was also at this point that I was forced to argue semantics to refute you. 10. You say that your original post was just satire that I took too seriously. You try to change the definition of the word "common" to fit your argument. You ask how many people I know who have told me they have STD's. 11. After being forced to clarify what satire is and the definition of the word common, I once again restate my main point: you still said that it's mainly a slut's disease, and it isn't. 12. You threaten to end our friendship unless I throw the debate. You also claim to have been providing the one arguing facts that whole time, then accuse ME of arguing semantics, simply because I'm forced to refute diversionary points that you have raised in order to delay having to reply to my one and only main point.
Which is: In your original post, you made the point, through satire, that HPV is mainly a promiscuous person's disease. It isn't. You were WRONG. Okay?
Re: A draw.the_julieSeptember 1 2006, 19:52:09 UTC
That was NOT a threat to end our frienship. That was me pointing out that if we keep this up, we're likely to not want to be friends anymore, and I don't want that. I don't want to lose my friend in a stupid argument just because we're both too arrogant to shut our damn mouths.
I don't think it's arrogant of me to point out a dangerous fallacy in something you've said and expect a recant, and I'm not on the verge of not wanting to be your friend anymore, but if you'd rather just drop it, that's fine.
Re: A draw.the_julieSeptember 2 2006, 20:26:50 UTC
Yes. I would rather just drop it. This argument is exhausting. I was trying to lighten the mood a bit with the whole "let's just agree that you're wrong am I'm right to disagree" thing and end it...didn't work so well.
Now, for the love of all things sacred, let's call a truce.
Once again, I did not say that only skanks get it. I also said that you don't have to have sex to get it...that's what "any form of sexual contact" means.
And yes, it is an extremely common virus; in fact, it's the most common viral STD. BUT there are only two types out of the 100+ strains that are associated with CC (16 and 18).
Think about this anatomically: you can get it/give it from giving a blow job, but then, instead of cervical cancer, you'd get lesions in your mouth or genital warts (HPV causes those, too). So by the same token, if a girl has sex with someone who has it, the virus is then deposited in her vaginal tract, and guess what's at the top of the vagina? The cervix...and most cervical cancers are caused by an HPV infection. Wanna know what the other risk factors for CC are? Early sexual experience, multiple partners, HIV infection, unprotected sex, smoking, and poor diet.
And this isn't from some random medical website; this is from two of my textbooks.
Sure, you could accidentally bump into someone on the street with an open lesion and contract it, the same is true of HIV, but how often does that really happen?
Once again, am I saying that only promiscuous girls get it? No, though all evidence may point to the contrary. I'm simply laying out the facts that I've been taught over the past year in nursing school. And I'm sorry if the way I've presented this makes it sound like I'm calling your sister a slut. That is not my intention. I realize it's hard to accept something when it hits a little too close to home...like when my mom casually eludes to the fact that my obesity is going to make me end up like my father. But that's why it's called 'cold, harsh reality' and not 'warm, fuzzy loose interpretation of the truth.'
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I'm almost surprised at how neglected research in this area has been, given how freakishly evil DNA viruses are.
I also think that commercial seemed to have come dangerously close to using a cuddly stuffed animal of some sort. Perhaps Snuggles demanded too high a pay for the advert.
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A virus can't survive very long on a surface. It needs a host to survive. The HIV virus can only live about 6 hours on a toilet seat...and there are at least skin cells on a toilet seat to keep it alive.
And this research isn't neglected. They've known about this for years. HPV has been recognized as the cause of over 95% of cervical cancers. That's why women are supposed to go to the gynecologist annually to get tested for it. That's what the "pap" in "pap smear" means: papanicolaou. They're teaching this stuff to first level nursing students; it's not a new discovery.
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Has nothing to do with the fact that it hits close to home, as far as the facts are concerned, although that did contribute to my choosing to speak up in the first place. Really, it's as simple as: you were trying to pigeonhole it as primarily a result of promiscuity, and that's simply not true. It's not the clap or AIDS or gonorrhea. It's way, way common among average folks. Just like the commercial says.
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1. Yes, I admit, I was trying to make the point that they're sugar-coating a taboo subject. It IS an STD. It's documented as an STD. And like my textbook said, it's the most common viral STD. And the more people you sleep with, the more likely you are to get it. It's a positive correlation.
2. The thing that gets to me about the commercial is that they're making it sound like a new discovery. It's not. It's been around for ages. Why do you think women are supposed to go to the gynecologist once a year for a pap smear? Did you think the 'pap' in 'pap smear' and the 'pap' in 'papilloma' were unrelated? And what do all these women think they were going to the GYN for? Just a random annual cunt-probe for shits and giggles? I wouldn't want to undergo something that incredibly uncomfortable every year unless it was for a damn good reason.
They're also making it sound like you can get cervical cancer if someone sneezes on you. Also not true. Viruses are spread through an exchange of bodily fluids containing live cells (which is why saliva doesn't count). Modes of transmission include sharing needles, direct contact between two open wounds, or an open wound and a mucous membrane, and SEX.
3. The recommended age/time for a girl to start getting pap smears is age 18 OR sexually active, whichever comes FIRST, because doctors KNOW that's how this thing is spread. Case in point: 2 weeks ago at my annual crotch-probe, my doctor said to me, "Since you haven't become sexually active yet, would you be interested in the HPV vaccination?" Now, if this was such a common virus that you can get anywhere, why hasn't my primary care physician said anything about it? Why was it only my naughty-bits doctor who brought it up? And why did she say, "since you're not sexually active" instead of "since it's so common"?
No, it's not limited to promiscuity, and I understand that, cause it only takes one time to get it...but promiscuity doesn't exactly HURT your chances.
Yes, it's common, but if there are only two types out of over 100 that cause cancer, that's less than a 2% chance of getting it. Last time I checked, 2% was well below the "common" cut-off point.
If this was a bacterial infection, your argument would have much more validity, because then you COULD get cancer if someone sneezed on you. But viruses aren't so easily spread. They need a live host to survive.
[4. Don't argue pathology with a nurse. You'll lose.]
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I'm pretty sure this is not the case, but you almost seem to be taking personal offense that other people are having sex of any kind. As I said before, there's a big gray area between "celibate" and "whore". If you disagree, then yes, we should stop arguing because if we disagree on that principle, the rest is just redundant.
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And as far as "occasional sex with someone you love like any normal, healthy person," the chances are only high if one of you got it previously from someone else then passed it on. It's not just gonna...develop out of nowhere. As with any STD, monogamous sexual partners have the least chance of contracting it.
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And now you're pretty much agreeing with me: you say "the chances are only high if one of you got it previously from someone else, then passed it on". Yeah, I know how STDs work, thanks. Either you're not understanding what I'm saying or you're just restating what you've already attempted to say for purposes of making it look like you've got something new, so I'll just say it again: I understand that the less sex you have, the less likely it is you'll catch it. I really do. What I'm saying is: it's STILL common among people who have very few or only one sexual partner. Less common than among the promiscuous, but common nonetheless.
To sum up as simply as I can: you painted it as primarily a promiscuous person's disease, like AIDS or the clap. But it isn't. It affects normal, everyday people, to a slightly lesser extent yes, but still enough to be considered common. It's not something only sluts need to watch out for, as your original post made the case for. It's something EVERYONE having ANY KIND OF SEX needs to watch out for. Okay?
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AIDS and the clap affect normal, everyday people to a lesser extent, too, and I think you would agree AIDS is quite common. Common means "well known," not "easy to contract."
I painted it as an STD. Because it is. That's how it's classified in every related textbook I've read in the last 12 months. How many normal, everyday-type people do you know who have STDs? I'm gonna go ahead and guess, "not so many." (Notice I didn't say "none.")
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Example: if I posted something like "As a boy, every morning L. Ron Hubbard would get up, eat a big bowl of babies, bathe in pig vomit, and then get started on a busy day of screaming at invisible demons and kicking amputees in the throat", I'm using a satirical approach. I don't actually think L. Ron did any of those things, BUT I am making it pretty clear that I think he was a crazy, evil son of a bitch. You could object to what I wrote for really only two reasons. You could disagree morally and be one of those rare people who, for whatever reason, doesn't think eating babies is funny. Or you could disagree with me on a factual level and provide reasons why L. Ron is not an evil person. That's what I'm doing. I'm not disagreeing with you on anything but a factual level: your point was that HPV is for sluts. This is incorrect.
And no, common does not mean "well-known" in any of the conversations I've ever heard. "Common" has always meant "exists in plentiful supply", which HPV does and AIDS does not (in America). When someone means "well-known", they'll say "well-known", or "notorious" or even "infamous". Like bird flu. The media's still trying to scare us to death with bird flu stories. It's most certainly well-known in that anyone who's watched the news since the beginning of 2005 has heard of it. However, fewer than 200 people have contracted it. Definitely not common. And don't try to pull the nurse card again. I bet if I walked into a hospital tomorrow and said I have "that common virus", ebola would be pretty far down the list of things they'd test me for even though everyone's heard of it.
To sum up: I'm not objecting to your use of satire. I'm objecting to the fact that your statement behind the satire was false and misleading.
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I have no choice but to pull the nursing card because that's my background.
Now, I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy the thought of having to explain to people that I lost a good friend because of HPV, so I'm going to call this a draw. We're never going to see eye-to-eye on this and I'm tired of trying, so let's just agree that you're wrong and I'm right to disagree and let it be done with, deal?
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1. I make a smartass comment pointing out that you said HPV is a slut's disease, and it isn't.
2. You say you acknowledged that not everyone who gets HPV is a skank.
3. I say "Yes, but you still said that it's mainly a slut's disease, and it isn't".
4. You provide medical stats on the disease, remind me how STD's work, and say that you didn't mean that ONLY promiscuous people get it.
5. I say, "Yes, but you still said that it's MAINLY a slut's disease, and it isn't."
6. You talk about pathology and pap smears, and remind me that it's an STD.
7. I say, "Yes, but you still said that it's mainly a slut's disease, and it isn't."
8. You say that there's a difference between "said" and "implied", and you also state that HPV is more difficult to catch if you have a monogamous partner.
9. I say, "Yes, but you still got the point across that it's mainly a slut's disease, and it isn't. It's easy to catch if you're a slut. It's slightly less easy to catch, but still easy, if you're monogamous." It was also at this point that I was forced to argue semantics to refute you.
10. You say that your original post was just satire that I took too seriously. You try to change the definition of the word "common" to fit your argument. You ask how many people I know who have told me they have STD's.
11. After being forced to clarify what satire is and the definition of the word common, I once again restate my main point: you still said that it's mainly a slut's disease, and it isn't.
12. You threaten to end our friendship unless I throw the debate. You also claim to have been providing the one arguing facts that whole time, then accuse ME of arguing semantics, simply because I'm forced to refute diversionary points that you have raised in order to delay having to reply to my one and only main point.
Which is: In your original post, you made the point, through satire, that HPV is mainly a promiscuous person's disease. It isn't. You were WRONG. Okay?
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Now, for the love of all things sacred, let's call a truce.
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