AFS: Azula and Zuko's Choice
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This page was last updated: June 4th, 2007
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Behind the cut: What does the season 2 finale tell us about Azula's character? Was she being genuine in her offer to Zuko, and what were her motivations?
Debate #1
Someone writes: Azula is extremely ambitious and Zuko is in her way...
rawles, writing after "The Crossroads of Destiny:" The problem with reading Azula as deeply ambitious in light of the finale is that there was no reason for her to offer Zuko the chance to restore his honor. She didn't need his help to complete her coup in Ba Sing Se. In fact, her coup was already done. She could have just captured him the same way that she did Iroh instead of leaving Zuko there and giving him the chance to choose.
People assume some convoluted plan on her part to present Zuko to Ozai for his final rejection or whatever, but him having the distinction of having actually done something RIGHT in the Fire Nation's eyes by helping her, a distinction the she gave to him, isn't any sort of boon for that kind of plan.
The fact of the matter is, Zuko was dead-to-rights in the eyes of the Fire Nation. If Azula had just captured him she would certainly never have to worry about him threatening her place in the line of succession again. She's put him back "into play" so to speak of her own volition, an action that is completely counterproductive if her main motivating factor is actually Fire Lordly ambition. Which means, even though it shakes my initial reading of Azula to the core as well, that we should perhaps consider the possibility that it's not her main motivating factor.
And, mind you, I'm in no way saying that siding with Azula wasn't a dangerous decision because even if she is pleased with him now, Zuko's just not in the same place as her ethically and that's no doubt going to come to a head. But there remains that vague possibility that, in the moment, Azula really was doing Zuko a favor by offering him a last chance to finally do something right. There's a possibility that it wasn't in the interest of Zuko's destruction just because there was a much easier way to ensure that at her disposal and now all such plans are shaky and convoluted.
I find the idea that she offered Zuko that chance in order to split him from Iroh unlikely just because...yeah, Zuko's weaker without Iroh, but...Azula has never acted the least bit threatened by Zuko regardless of whether he's allied with Iroh.
There's no reason why, if she wanted to, she couldn't have taken them both and imprisoned them on separate ends of the city if she was worried about their alliance being a danger to her. (Which, again, she's never seemed terribly concerned about before.)
Someone replies: Zuko represents everything she hates: she's SECOND on the throne (so no "divine right to rule") she's a girl, she's better than Zuko but if he weren't such a screw up he'd get all the attention. She may value how painful it is for him to live with such a decision.
Rawles replies: There are a lot of problems with these things as motivators for Azula. The first being the the divine right to rule is a belief about all royalty. It's a necessary precept for monarchies as it refers to the idea that this family, people of this certain blood, have been touched by diety-of-choice and that's why they're in dominion over all others. The divine right is enjoyed by everyone in the line of succession, not just the firstborn or else there wouldn't be a line of succession because as soon if the firstborn died there'd be no one else worthy of taking his place. That's what she explains to Long Feng. She has the divine right to rule, not because she's currently at the top of the line of succession, but because she's royalty. Long Feng pulled himself up and into a position of power (not unlike her own father did as secondborn), but because he's a commoner, he still doesn't have the right to be in that position by Azula's estimation, where, of course, her father does.
We've never been given any indication that there's any prejudice against Azula because of her gender. Why on earth she would care about the idea that Zuko would "get more attention" if he didn't suck when he does, in fact, suck, and she's the clear favourite is beyond me. And it also, again, makes no sense in light of the fact that she just assisted him in doing something orchestrated to WIN him favor. And while I wouldn't put it past Azula to enjoy Zuko's torment, given that she actually tried to comfort him at the end of CoD, it doesn't seem like she's particularly interested in savoring this one.
Someone replies: Now she's free to use him as either cannon fodder or an excuse to daddy when she loses the city... ("oh I was gonna win but my stupid brother interfered") or just ship him off home on a "get more troops" errand and never see him again.
Rawles replies: Not that I don't think Azula would hesistate to throw Zuko on the grenade if it came to that...but when has Azula ever seemed like someone to expect failure? And like beyond that, when have we ever seen her make an excuse? On the rare occasion that Azula fails, she just tries another tactic. Indeed, she has been shown on various occasions to despise the passing of blame/making of excuses in others.
Azula strikes me as someone who, above all else, likes things to be effective and expedient. In The Avatar State, before Iroh and Zuko were aware of what was going on, the most expedient method was to get them to come along quietly. That failed and Azula was utterly undaunted. The thing about all of this plotting you're attributing to her in CoD is that it's not at all expedient.
Why would she need to go through all of this trickery to ensure Zuko's capture? Iroh's, sure. Iroh's a lot more powerful than Zuko. Except Iroh's too smart to fall for that so she just uses force. So there she is, with Ba Sing Se under her control, Iroh captured, and the Avatar on the run. Azula can kick Zuko's butt at will. If she really wanted to capture him, there's just no reason for her to bother with some convoluted plot wherein she keeps him free so he can second-guess and doubt himself and possibly cause her more trouble, when she could just smack him around and lock him up in five minutes flat then go about her business none the worse for wear.
I do think her change of heart about how to deal with Zuko came when she went down into the cave. I think she overheard Iroh telling Zuko that it was time for him to choose, finally, for real, and she knew that Iroh was unsalvageable, but that Zuko wasn't. She basically says as much. And I do think it was a genuine as she's capable of just because there's no logical path for duplicity here.
I'm beginning to think that Azula is hard to read or seems contradictory in some instances because we've all been making the mistake of looking at her largely in terms of absolutes. She's so ruthless and seemingly sociopathic that we go: pure evil.
So it becomes difficult to parse her actions that don't immediately seem to be pure evil.
Like as mentioned, she does play happily with Zuko in the flashback [when they were playing chase and they both seemed perfectly happy]. And if she just hates his guts and always has, there's no real way to explain that. Yes, she's pleased when Zuko fails, but then there is sibling rivalry. She taunts him because she's outperforming him and she's vindicated when he tries to outperform her and can't. It's certainly not nice by a long stretch, but is it evil? Does it actually indicate a seething hatred for her brother or just the fact that she's a cold, cruel little girl? She's mean to Ty Lee and Mai, as well, but do we think that she hates them? And, in addition, if they ever did anything to turn on the Fire Nation, do we think that she'd hesitate for a second to dispatch of them?
I think that Azula is a patriot, much like Zuko. I think she has the Fire Nation's best interest at heart. She's never actually expressed any desire to rule the Fire Nation and when she's pulling for Ozai to be made Fire Lord and deriding Azulon and Iroh, both times it's on the basis that they're not fit for it. (And mind, if Ozai becomes Fire Lord at that point then it's Zuko who's going to be the heir apparent.) Azulon isn't a powerful Fire Lord in her eyes anymore because he's old and frail. Iroh isn't going to make a powerful Fire Lord because he's "kooky," his temperament and his priorities are wrong in her estimation. These are faults can't really be rectified.
When Azula mocks Zuko in The Avatar State and calls him a miserable failure while she's fighting him with the intent of arresting him, at that point he is a miserable failure and at that juncture there was nothing he could do immediately to rectify the situation. But not so in CoD.
I think, in the end, it's as simple as this: Azula works on a system of merit. She had nothing to lose (or nothing she cares about, apparently) by giving Zuko a last chance to redeem himself. And when she does give him that opportunity he actually comes through and she's pleased about that. If she really does believe in the divine right, then she believes that Zuko has it too, and maybe, just maybe, she has an interest in him not squandering it like Iroh did.
The more I talk about it the more I believe that her approval was completely genuine and that it makes sense with what we know of Azula.
Someone replies: Yes but why is Zuko no longer a miserable failure in COD because he sided with her?
Rawles replies: I don't think it's because he chose to side with her. I don't think intention means that much to Azula. Clearly, the fact that he's still loyal means SOMETHING to her inasmuch as it means that he'll consider before he throws it all away for good; it means that she can appeal to his loyalty. But I think action is more important.
When I say that there was nothing he could do to rectify the situation in The Avatar State it's because he'd already failed and the Avatar was nowhere to be found. His loyalty isn't particularly meaningful without anything to back it up. Basically, at that point, it was too late. In The Chase, he's still loyal and trying to capture the Avatar, yes. BUT in his efforts to do this he's impeding Azula's efforts to do the same. He interrupts Azula. He fights both her and Aang, which is counterproductive to the cause of either of them capturing the Avatar for the Fire Nation. At the end of that battle he tacitly sides with Aang against her. He was more interested in defeating her than he was in helping the Fire Nation.
But in CoD, this is the first time he actually does something substantial to help the Fire Nation. He isn't toothless and without opportunity like in The Avatar State. He doesn't make the mistake of prioritizing his own desire to be the one and the one alone who captures the Avatar over the greater good like he does in The Chase (and recall, Zhao, another patriot, got pissed at Zuko for this exact same thing in season one). She has a plan for the glory of the Fire Nation and Zuko played his part. In Azula's eyes, he restores his honor by not just jabbering on about how he is the Prince of the Fire Nation, but by acting in a way worthy of that position.
To me it's basically a Occam's Razor thing.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one.
I just don't see any reason to ascribe all of these convoluted (and in many cases logically unsound) plans to Azula as motivation for her to offer Zuko the chance to restore his honor and come back into the fold, when it could just as easily be that she did it because she genuinely wanted him to restore his honor and be back in the fold.
You can argue how he's not REALLY back in good standing unless she actually tells Ozai so and she's disconnected him from his only ally and whatnot. But in the end, it's just easier and safer to toss him in some cell, put a guard around him, and ship him back home than it would be to do anything else. The idea that OMG HE MIGHT ESCAPE makes that an unwelcome option doesn't really make that much sense ESPECIALLY when the alternative is letting him wander around free when he's clearly conflicted about the choice he made and is actually in the position to do something about it.
Someone replies: seeing the war from a different perspective, she's actually developed some kind of conscience and is willing to give him a chance to redeem himself (in her and their father's eyes)
Rawles replies: I don't think her developing a conscience is at all necessary. The only motivator she needs is a belief in the strength and divine right of the Fire Nation royal family.
Someone replies: Even if she DOES genuinely want him back, and I'm not ruling this out...
Rawles replies: Which means that I can stop here because my point was that I think there's a strong possibility that Azula wasn't necessarily plotting some further betrayal of Zuko when she asked him to join her.
Whether it means he'll actually be accepted back, what it means for Ozai, what it means for the future of the Fire Nation...all of that is tangential to that initial point.
And I could construct some long involved spec based on my new reading of Azula as a patriot and someone who works on a system of merit, but I'm not going to right now. Because as long as we're agreed that it's not impossible for her to have been genuine in that moment, then I'm good.
Rawles replies to someone else: I guess I'll go against the grain entirely and say that I don't think that Azula would try to or encourage usurping the throne from Ozai unless he did something to make her feel that he was unworthy.
One of these days I'm really going to have to write up my character analysis of Azula in light of Crossroads of Destiny and how I think my new read of her makes her a much more interesting character than she otherwise might have been.
The basic thrust of my new reading of her is, yes, that she is ruthless and a fierce patriot and essentially that all of her major actions in the series have been motivated by those things rather than any sort of personal ambition.
And yeah I really should write up that meta in full. I suppose I will. Eventually!
Someone replies: As for Azula being patriotic... I don't see her that way. From childhood she was reaching for personal success and glory. She basically implied that she considered her grandfather too senile to keep on being Fire Lord. She dismissed her uncle, a powerful firebender and military strategist, as being nothing but a "royal tea-loving kookiness". She wished them both dead so that her father ascended to the throne. I don't see patriotism there. She may have said that Ozai would be a better Fire Lord than Iroh but she didn't mean that in the best interests of the Nation, but rather in *her* best interests. She's had a superiority complex for seemingly all her life. Having her father become Fire Lord would bring her one step closer to *her* becoming the ruler of the Fire Nation. Then her brother was taken out. Her goal seems closer still.
Rawles replies: She implied that her grandfather was old and had lost his bearing and his power and thus he was no longer fit to be Fire Lord. She thinks that her Uncle was too "kooky" to be fit to be Fire Lord and considering what happened with Iroh, the weakness that he showed by giving up at Ba Sing Se, she was right. She did, however, think that her father, ruthless and focused, was fit to be Fire Lord. There's nothing to indicate that personal ambition has anything to do with any of that other your assumption that it does. Especially since Ozai becoming Fire Lord made Zuko the heir, not Azula. And there's never been any proof or indication that Azula actively plotted to get rid of Zuko prior to him proving himself unworthy at his Agni Kai. And even after that she hasn't plotted to be rid of him so much as follow her father's orders to apprehend him. Then the icing on the cake being the fact that she welcomed him back into the fold as soon as he proved himself worthy of being there.
Everyone can assume that Zuko's childhood mantra that Azula Always Lies is objective reality, but I sincerely doubt it's that simple. (Especially since when we're introduced to said childhood mantra it's wrong because Azula isn't lying.) I also sincerely doubt, just for the sake of logic and adherence to Avatar's storytelling conventions, that she's misleading him now because 1) it would be a completely unnecessary and non-sensical deception and 2) there's been no indication given to the audience that she is which is directly contrary to the other times she's lied (which, frankly, has only been once; twice if you count posing as Kyoshi warriors).
Someone replies: I never said that Azula played a part in getting Zuko burned at the Agni Kai.
Rawles replies: I didn't say that you said that. I was simply making the point that as ruthless and driven as she is, if her motivation in supporting Ozai as Fire Lord was personal ambition then it seems like she would have.
Someone replies: I just said that once it happened, she was elated (clearly visible in her reaction to the burning), and since he's out of the picture, then she's next in line to the throne, an event that she was quite possibly happy about.
Rawles replies: I never said she wasn't a sadist and considering that Zuko was quite clearly proving himself unworthy in her eyes why wouldn't she be happy that she got to surpass him? I'm not arguing that Azula would ever reject the throne if it she was in the position to get it or even be unhappy with the fact that she ended up there if everyone ahead of her in line fell away for whatever reason, what I'm arguing is that angling for said throne is not her motivation.
Someone replies: She also deemed Iroh unfit to be Fire Lord *before* Lu Ten died and the siege at Ba Sing Se stopped.
Rawles replies: I know. I specifically said that his performance at Ba Sing Se proved her prior evaluation of his character and fitness correct. Not that it was the cause of her evaluation.
Someone replies: And Azulon was 'the picture of health' according to Ursa, so if what she said is true, then he was far from being senile.
Rawles replies: You used the word senile, I never did. I said that Azula clearly felt that in his old age Azulon had lost his bearing and his power. I'm not saying that she was right, I'm saying that was clearly her opinion since she specifically talks about how he's basically a little old man and not anywhere near the fearsome Fire Lord that he used to be.
Someone replies: As for Azula welcoming Zuko back into the fold, I don't believe that for a second. She doesn't consider Zuko 'worthy'. One moment she's throwing him in the catacombs, and the next she's telling him she needs his help. That doesn't look to me like a change of heart. That looks to me as taking advantage of the situation. She tells Zuko exactly what he wants to hear, so that he follows her blindingly. And even if there is no indication that she *is* misleading Zuko, by the same token there is no indication that she's *not*. Just because she treated him kindly in that last scene doesn't mean she was sincere. Ozai sent her to capture Zuko. She tried to lure him in by lying before. There's no reason why she wouldn't do it again. She could very well continue being nice to him and then at the end bite his head off, metaphorically speaking.
Rawles replies: I feel like I've already argued ad nauseum about whether Azula is misleading Zuko and explained at length (MUCH LENGTH) why I feel that it makes little to no sense logically, narratively, or otherwise for her to offer him what she did unless she was being sincere. So I'm going to agree to disagree here.
Someone replies: On the other hand, if you define patriotism as her thinking that the Fire Nation is the best in the world and everyone else is beneath them, and pushing forward a world-domination crusade, then sure, what the heck, she's a patriot. I just don't think that's an appropriate definition of the word.
Rawles replies: Patriotism means national loyalty. Devotion to one's nation. That's it. It doesn't mean that you're a good person. It doesn't mean that you're in the ethical right. It just means that you love your nation which people do in many different ways. And, yeah, when you're talking about an imperialist nation, thinking that the Fire Nation is the best in the world and everyone else is beneath them and pushing forth with a meglomaniacal crusade IS patriotism. Azula is dedicated to the glory of the Fire Nation, to the legacy of domination that her great-grandfather set forth. She's a patriot. Maybe you'd like the words nationalism or jingoism better as their connotations are more disparaging, but I was using patriot/ism as an objective term, not making any sort of value judgement on the method and ideals of Azula's particular brand of patriotism.
Someone wisely adds: My two cents-in addtion to the plot points that Rawles pointed out elsewehere, I'ld like to note that Azula sounded sincere. When she telling Zuko about going home in the Avatar State, there were small clues in her voice and tone that suggested she found this amusing, and then there was the clear contempt in her voice for most of the dialogue. On the other hand, in that final scene, there was none of that. Heck, I think it sounded like she actauly respected Zuko, and respect is as good as it gets from her. At the very least this suggests Azula's voice actress thought that was what Azula was feeling.
Someone replies: So CoD was just another chance to test her skills in manipulation, and either she succeeds or she doesn't, but in the end it doesn't really matter to her.
Rawles replies: Except that doesn't make any sense, because joy in manipulating people or not it's just plain stupid to let Zuko run around free for no other reason than to screw with his head.
I refuse to believe that Azula is, against all appearances and prior behavior, actually an idiot.
And re: how she sounded. I personally think she sounded very fake when talking to Long Feng, but I can even let that pass as a subjective thing. What isn't subjective is the fact that there's a difference between a character lying to another character and the audience being lied to. There are no narrative cues in Crossroads of Destiny to indicate that Azula is lying to Zuko, when there always have been before. There's no logical reason for her to be lying to him. So it follows, she probably wasn't lying.
Whether Azula had plans to deal with Zuko if he chose Iroh isn't germaine to my point. Besides, he was inside catacombs, how was he even going to get out without earthbending assistance?
My argument is in its most condensed form:
Azula did not have any immediate ulterior motives when inviting Zuko back into the fold in Crossroads of Destiny. She was not lying to him or misleading him in any way when she did so. She invited Zuko to join her in her victory because he is the Prince of the Fire Nation and her brother and if he actually acts in a manner worthy of being such then she has no problem with him, outside of her general problems with everyone in the world what with being a sadist.
Someone replies: Azula had no reason to keep her side of the bargain, but she told Zuko that he had already restored his own honor and didn't need Father for that. To me, that looks a lot like the start of driving a wedge between Zuko and Ozai.
Rawles replies: If Azula, by your reckoning, hates Zuko, then Ozai certainly does as well. Why on Earth would she need to drive a wedge between Zuko and Ozai? She's always been Ozai's favourite, Zuko has always been entirely useless in Ozai's eyes, not to mention that he was banished and imprisoned at Ozai's command. Driving a wedge between people only becomes necessary when they're remotely close to begin with.
Someone replies: Also, why would Azula give Zuko this chance in terms of her own self-interest? If Zuko's honor is restored, he will become the heir again and Azula will be second to him. Either Azula really did help Zuko out of entirely unselfish motives, or she has some scheme in mind that will use Zuko as a major piece.
Rawles replies: Exactly. And I'm subscribing to the former theory because I've yet to run into reasoning for the latter that makes any real sense.
If under the unsubstatiated assumption that Azula only cares about her own ambition and chance to ascend to the throne her actions make no sense without employing many other equally unsubstantiated assumptions and convoluted theories, then my instinct is that far more likely than those further unsubstantiated assumptions and convoluted theories being accurate is the original assumption being wrong.
When all is said and done, I'm just an Occam's Razor kind of girl.
Rawles replies to someone else: First, unsubstantiated and convoluted aren't the same thing.
Second, you're losing the thread here.
Occam's Razor refers to the philosophy that when you have multiple unproven theories of relative equality, the least convoluted (i.e. the one that requires the fewest assumptions) is probably the most accurate.
The original assumption is that Azula doesn't care about anything but her own personal ambition. But the fact that she has actually acted in a way that is contrary to this (i.e. doing something for Zuko that has no immediate or obvious benefit to her) is an indication that that original assumption is inaccurate. Thus, the idea that she might actually care about her brother is not unsubstatiated, as she has acted in a way that could conceivably indicate that she does.
However, in attempts to adhere to the original assumption that Azula's main motivator is personal ambition despite the fact that she has acted in a manner that directly contradicts that, you and various other people have come up with extensive and often very obtuse theories about how that particular action really is in her service.
But under the principle of Occam's Razor, those explanations will never be more likely to be accurate than the simplest one: that we were all wrong with the original unproven assumption that all she cares about is personal ambition.
You don't have to subscribe to that particular logical principle, but I do, and that's why I'm making the argument that I am. Which is ultimately all I was saying.
Rawles replies to someone else: SMBH, I said that you were losing the thread because the primary argument isn't that she cares about Zuko which you were arguing against based on her prior behavior. The primary argument is that her main motivation isn't personal ambition.
Or to state it another way, the phenomenon being explored is Azula offering Zuko the chance to team up with her and come back into the fold despite the fact that if he does so he will bump her down in the line of succession.
The two major explanations for this actions are:
1) That she is being dishonest/has a sinister ulterior motive that is in her own self-interest.
and
2) Her major motivation is not personal ambition.
Because there is no concrete evidence from prior in the series to prove or disprove either of these theories they are of equal weight.
However, theory #1 requires much projection and speculation and assumption about things that she could be doing beyond what she immediately seems to be doing. Theory #2 requires only taking what she is empirically doing at face value.
And because, again, these theories have equal weight, I choose to subscribe to the simpler one.
Rawles replies to someone else: Please don't push fallacious generalizations onto me.
I didn't say that all things ever should be taken at face value. I very clearly illustrated that I took something at face value in this particular singular instance because I find alternative arguments convoluted to the point of dubiousness.
Also, I have no idea what most people believed, but it was certainly clear to me that Azula would be a major villian just by virtue of all of the build-up she had.
Someone replies: Don't go getting all defensive, I'm not attacking your opinion and I'm not saying you said that everything should be taken at face value.
Rawles replies: You can attack my opinion all you want to. I have no problem with that. It's an opinion, by voicing it it's presented to be responded to in any way that anyone deems worthy.
However, by pointing out that everything shouldn't be taken at face value, it was implied that I was doing that as opposed to taking one specific thing at face value. If that's not what you meant, fine. But the way you presented your statement made it seem like that was the point you were making.
Someone replies: I'ld just like to point out one thought that crossed my mind-it is possible that if love is impossible for Azula, hate should be equally impossible.
Rawles replies: Indeed, by definition, sociopathy requires the absence of emotional connection or at least the presence of emotional connections that are extremely muted.
If Azula is, indeed, a sociopath, then she neither loves OR hates anyone.
Someone replies: Now that I think about it, people seem to have this black white obsession with villains. Either a villain is completely evil in every single corner of their life an incapable of a single good act, or they are in fact some poor misled puppy trying to make a better world.
Rawles replies: ITA. One of the other reasons that I like the idea of Azula being sincere in CoD is because it just makes her more interesting than if she was completely, entirely unfeeling MWAHAHAHA Evil.
Rawles replies to someone else: It's very nice that you can use dictionary.com.
Now how about you check out the DSM which states re: Antisocial Personality Disorder: "Some argue that a major component of this disorder is the reduced ability to feel empathy for other people. This inability to see the hurts, concerns, and other feelings of people often results in a disregard for these aspects of human interaction."
Or Robert Hare's Psychopathy Checklist: "Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret."
"Lacking feelings for others" = as previously mentioned, the absence of emotional connection or emotional connections being muted.
And even more in-depth discussions of sociopathy go into this lack of ability to feel any particular way about other people being vital in the lack of conscience and regard for societal norms.
Debate #2
diet otaku asks: the question is, did azula want to make that offer because she really wanted zuko by her side, or simply because she didn't want him getting in the way like he did in "the chase"?
Rawles replies: That's not a terribly valid question considering she already had him imprisoned and as such he couldn't have gotten in the way unless she released him in the first place. Of course, this goes back to the longstanding argument about whether Azula was genuine in her desire for Zuko to prove himself.
diet otaku replies: i'm thinking somehow she knew about iroh busting in to save him, and thus he wasn't really imprisoned. after all, once she left he just sort of wandered out on his own, didn't he?
Rawles replies: Clearly she knew about Iroh coming to save him as she immediately appeared to apprehend Iroh. He wandered out on his own because she gave him a choice which involved NOT imprisoning him like she did Iroh so that he could freely enact his choice. If she wanted to keep him captured all she would have had to do was have the Dai Li trap Zuko in a cocoon of crystal as well. It wasn't through any inability to apprehend him on Azula's part that saw Zuko wandering about. It was because she let him.
diet otaku replies: fine then, obviously azula offered zuko everything he ever wanted because she genuinely wants him to have it and she thinks he's a great firebender which is why she didn't imprison him, because she's just the sweetest little sister ever.
Rawles replies: Or she offered him everything he ever wanted because, as she stated, she knows he's not a traitor and she believes in the divine right, which he has and she would like to see him live up to instead of being a screw up his whole life.
Which, you'll note, he did, and she seemed quite pleased with the result.
Everything's not black and white, and no amount of sarcasm is going to make the events have played out any differently. Neither will it make my reading of what actually happened any less logical, if contrary to fandom's perception of Azula's character.
luthien replies: And given the information we've been presented so far, she doesn't appear to have any desire to see Zuko be a success, and in fact, delights in his failure.
Rawles replies: Except we have textual evidence that this is not true because she did something that didn't just have no apparent affect other than to be to his benefit, but makes no sense UNLESS it was just genuinely done mostly for his benefit.
I'm not going by information about what's to come either. I'm going by what happened on the screen. I see no reason to cling to the assumption that Azula hates Zuko's guts and would never do anything for his benefit when she clearly did something for his benefit (accepting that getting back into the fold of the Fire Nation is to his benefit in her view) with no logically perceivable ulterior motive.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone would ever offer me a logical, not ridiculously convoluted, and stretching in a way that would make Reed Richards jealous explanation for Azula's specific actions, I'd reconsider. But no one has ever offered much beyond, "Well, Azula is evil. So she must have evil ulterior motives."
luthien writes: she actually enjoys his suffering. Why then would she then want to see him get what he really wants?
Rawles replies: She's a sadist. She enjoys everyone's suffering. But we see her being proud of Zuko at the end of CoD and reassuring him when he is tormented.
If you think it's inconsistent with her character then take it up with the writers, I'd say.
luthien writes: Perhaps she's planning on using him against their father - pitting the two against each other and taking out whoever's left standing so she can ultimately be Fire Lord.
Rawles replies: Which is an assumption based on the unproven assumption that personal ambition is her major motivating factor. Not to mention that that doesn't make sense considering Azula is like five times the bender Zuko is, as such, it's not like he'd have any hope of besting Ozai if she doesn't. Furthermore, if she just wanted to sacrifice him to Ozai for her own amusement she could do that without actually allowing him to do something useful for once in his life and thus offer even the remotest chance of him gaining any approval from Ozai. Not to mention that turning Zuko against Ozai is a pretty dumb thing to set out to do considering he's completely driven by his need for Ozai's approval and is in the mess he is in because of his utter unwillingness to lift a hand to his father.
luthien writes: Perhaps she wants to use Zuko as a puppet political figure - knowing the Fire Nation nobles might be more accepting of the male heir as leader, she makes sure that happens but then acts as his "advisor."
Rawles replies: This has no support in the text considering that no one has ever once voiced even the slightest objection or even vaguest surprise at three teenaged noble girls running around ordering troops and carrying out sensitive missions for the Fire Lord. There's nothing to indicate that Azula wouldn't be easily accepted as an heir to the throne.
luthien writes: Maybe she wants Zuko back in the Fire Nation so that when he is arrested, there's less chance of his escape since the place is crawling with Fire Nation troops.
Rawles replies: She already had him captured. Dead. To. Rights. Why on earth would she need to deceive him to get him to come back to the Fire Nation when she could just as easily take him back as a prisoner? Which, again, he was before she released him on his own recognizance.
luthien writes: Maybe she just enjoys dangling what Zuko wants most in front of him because she likes to see him squirm.
Rawles replies: Dangling to see him squirm would require actually...snatching back what she was dangling.
luthien writes: Or maybe she does think having him on her side benefits her more than having him as a potential opponent.
Rawles replies: And then we arrive once again at how Azula can smack Zuko around like a little child and didn't really need his help to do anything. She had it all under control with her army of Dai Li and her coup of Ba Sing Se. In fact, the only way she was ever even remotely vulnerable was when she let herself be by sending away to Dai Li and giving Zuko the chance to either assist her or go about his business. And having him back in the fold pushes her DOWN in the line of succesion. How is that to her benefit?
luthien writes: However, I don't think in any way her actions are primarily motivated by her concern for Zuko's well-being. [...] Azula has never shown herself to care about anyone else but herself.
Rawles replies: I didn't say it was primarily motivated by her concern for his well-being. I said she believes in the divine right to rule, thinks that Zuko is NOT a traitor, and has the same blood as she does and as such is the rightful heir to the throne if he proves himself worthy by acting like it. She gave him a chance to act like it. He proved himself worthy.
And again she had never shown herself to care about anyone...until she did this for Zuko.
Ouroboros writes: She's not stupid, she knows Long Feng isn't her friend
Rawles replies: Which would be why she overthrew him? The Dai Li openly defied their master at the moment of truth for her, I don't honestly think Azula is terribly worried about their loyalty to her. Or that it'll even be much of a factor in season three considering we already know we're skipping forward a few weeks and will open in the Fire Nation.
Ouroboros writes: She wanted Zuko on her side because she knows him, can manipulate him at will, and can count on his loyalty to the Fire Nation.
Rawles replies: Which I never denied? Indeed the fact that she knows he's loyal was one of the reasons I stated as to why she gave him the opportunity. I'm not even saying there was no manipulation involved in the exchange because clearly Azula knew exactly how to appeal to Zuko to make him accept her offer over Iroh's pleas for him to choose good. But that does not negate the truth of what the offer was.
What I am arguing against is that Azula's main motivator in this was some manner of labyrinthine plan fueled by personal ambition. Because in terms of Azula's personal ambition, bringing Zuko back into the fold just doesn't make sense. Because once again he was a prisoner. She did not need manipulation to have him under control because she had him under control by force. And that was far more expedient and effective and far less dangerous.
Letting him wander free just on the strength of the idea that he'll be loyal to her is what makes him a loose cannon.
luthien writes: Is she really proud of him at the end of the episode, or is she just trying to assuage his doubt? His statement indicated he was waivering, and she needed to convince him what he did was right so he would stick with her. Again, self-serving.
Rawles replies: Which only works in support of your argument if you make a convincing argument for why him being on her side is self-serving in the first place.
luthien writes: On another note, isn't an assumption by its very nature unproven?
Rawles replies: Actually what I should have said was that it was an unsupported assumption and is, in fact, contradicted by the instance we're discussing.
luthien writes: But we all know how that turned out, so why should I believe her motivations are any different this time around? What has changed to make you believe she isn't as back-stabbing as she was back then?
Rawles replies: Because in The Avatar State it was made clear textually that Azula was lying. At no point was the AUDIENCE under the mistaken impression that Azula actually intended on doing anything other than locking Zuko up. Iroh was also suspcious.
Compare that to Crossroads of Destiny in which there is no indication given at any point that Azula is being anything but honest in her offer to Zuko and the assumption that she is not is based entirely on audience expectation. And note when Iroh objects he doesn't say, "Oh, she's lying, Zuko! Remember before!" Note he just counsels Zuko that the redemption Azula is offering him is not what he should want, but he doesn't contradict the idea that she's actually offering him redemption.
The reason I believe that she isn't misleading Zuko in this specific instance is because there are simply no textual cues indicating that she is.
luthien writes: And she guaranteed things she's not even in the place to guarantee. She can't back up *any* of those promises, which makes them empty. Can she really promise their father's love? No. Can she really promise Ozai will restore Zuko's honor? No.
Rawles replies: She promised him these things based on her understanding of her father, which Zuko apparently believed was reasonably accurate as well. The fact that she cannot technically guarantee what she offers is not proof that she doesn't believe that that is what her offer will lead to. In other words, it's not proof that she's lying.
luthien writes: And she certainly could be dangling this in front of him. Oh she hasn't yanked things back yet, but that isn't to say she couldn't.
Rawles replies: Again, season three opens three weeks later. In the Fire Nation.
If she wanted to dangle what he wanted in front of him and then snatch it back, it seems like she would have done that in the moment. Because, seriously, delayed gratification is not good enough payoff to warrant her letting him roam around free for weeks for no reason.
Ouroboros writes: I think her offer was genuine in that she meant exactly what she said to him, but I don't think that doesn't mean she doesn't have ulterior motives or plans to manipulate him further for her own gain.
Rawles replies: Yes. Again, I am not saying that she it is impossible for her to have ulterior motives. I am saying that those ulterior motives are not in the service of securing the throne for herself because genuinely welcoming Zuko back into the fold does not accomplish that for her. In fact, it does the exact opposite.
SMBH writes: To capture Iroh and Zuko and bring them back to the Fire Nation. I'd say she got it pretty good there. Iroh is captured and Zuko is going back out of his own free will, which makes things simpler for her because she only has to worry about one prisoner, not two. And she took down the Earth King and she killed the Avatar. Pretty good day for her Smiley Was she proud of Zuko at the end? Of course she was. He did exactly as she wanted him to do.
Rawles replies: I and others have already pointed out endless, endless times that it makes no sense for her to manipulate Zuko when he was already her prisoner.
SMBH writes: About "the divine right to rule" -- she certainly deems herself to have that right. Does she think Zuko is worthy of that right? I don't know. She seems to have been putting him down for a long long time. And if what she told him about Azulon telling Ozai to kill Zuko is true, well, she wasn't exactly ready to mourn his death. With Zuko out, she's next. Not saying that that's her only goal in life, but it'd be something that she wouldn't mind.
Rawles replies: The problem being Zuko was already out. She doesn't have to do anything to make herself next in line for the throne because she already was. Which makes all of her actions in CoD nonsensical and pointless if you view them as being in service of her paving her way to the throne.
And she's been putting Zuko down for a long time because he didn't measure up. I don't feel like revisiting my Azula: Ruthless Patriot reading in length, but the point being, she dismisses those she sees as being unworthy. Iroh because he is a "kook" and a traitor. Azulon because his days of effectiveness were behind him. Zuko because he was a screw up. Iroh is already too fargone. Azulon couldn't make himself young again. Zuko, however, could do something right for a change. She gave him the opportunity to and he took it.
luthien writes: Even if his firebending skills aren't up to hers, he still can serve as an annoyance (in that he's relentlessly persistent). And annoyances aren't what she needs at this point. Having Zuko on her side is a benefit, because he's there, he's in sight, she knows what he's up to - and she knows she can control him.
Rawles replies: He's there, in sight, and she knows what he's up to when he's her prisoner too.
luthien writes: Her history is what I'm basing my assumption on - not this particular instance. Who's to say it's not an aberration? So why say I'm wrong?
Rawles replies: I say you're wrong/I disagree because of the lack of textual cues that I already pointed out. There is nothing to indicate that she is lying in that particular instance. So, I don't think she was. It's not like she's never told the truth before. I think Azula either lies or tells the truth when it suits her. In this particular instance I think what suited her was what she believed to be true.
luthien writes: And I don't believe we've ever seen anything stating specifically that Season 3 *begins* in the Fire Nation.
Rawles replies: In the Beckett Pokemon interview Mike says that it starts three weeks after the end of season three begins already in the Fire Nation. Granted, that doesn't expressly state that Azula and co. will be in the Fire Nation, but there's no real reason to think they won't be and honestly this is tangential to the point that that it just makes no sense for her not to keep him as her prisoner. Especially in the interest of idly screwing with his head. It's just a stupid risk.
SMBH writes: Well, I don't view her actions as nonsensical and pointless
Rawles replies: If she's doing it all even remotely in the interest of paving her own way to the throne, yeah, they are.
You don't have to think so, but I certainly do.
Polychrome writes: Zuko was the "deciding vote" in a fight that Azula could easily have *lost*. Think about it... She was barely holding her own when it was just Aang and Katara fighting her.
Rawles replies: Because she sent the Dai Li away in order to offer Zuko his chance.
She did not actually need him until she left herself partially vulnerable in the interest of enticing him to her side.
Polychrome writes: Azula is a woman, and my feeling is that despite Zuko's supposed incompetence at finding the Avatar and such, Zuko's still technically the heir, and if he's not in the Fire Lord's good graces, that might mean that the throne would be passed to another noble, which could be Mai's baby brother for all we know.
Rawles replies: As I stated earlier, there is nothing in the text to support the idea that Azula, as a woman, could not be the heir to the throne. We've never really seen anything of the Fire Nation's gender politics to indicate that she wouldn't be and the fact that she, Ty Lee, and Mai, run around commanding armies and being sent on special missions of the utmost importance and no one ever seems to treat this as if it is even remotely unusual seems to indicate that women in command are not anathema to the Fire Nation.
Polychrome writes: Azula knows that Zuko and Iroh as outcasts are potentially, together and/or with the avatar, very powerful enemies. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, right? If Zuko believes he's welcome back to the Royal Family and has everything he wants, he might be less inclined to betray the fire nation, and Iroh alone and in prison might be unable to put up much of a fight.
Rawles replies: If she imprisons them, takes them back to the Fire Nation, and Ozai executes them both how dangerous they were or how inclined they might be to betray the Fire Nation isn't really terribly relevant is it?
SMBH writes: Well, you may have pointed that out countless times, but it doesn't make it any more correct than other people's interpretations.
Rawles replies: My point wasn't that my interpretation is inherently more valid. My point was that no one has ever explained exactly why it would make logical sense for her to go through the trouble of manipulating Zuko whilst he was already exiled, dishonored, and her prisoner if her ultimate goal is for him to end up such anyway.
Essentially, I was saying: no one has refuted the point that counters this argument yet so why should I keep repeating it at length?
This remains true. I have yet to see a reasonable explanation for why Azula would not just keep Zuko as her prisoner if her motivator is personal ambition. Even if her motivator is just to cause him pain. You don't think it would have caused him pain to be jailed and tormented physically and mentally as she brought him home to his shame?
All in all, I don't know why I keep dragging myself into this argument again and again since I got tired of it a really long time ago. I think Azula was being genuine in her offer. I think she is really welcoming Zuko back into the fold and back in the fold is where he will be in season three. No one has offered what I feel is a reasonable or convincing argument based on the text for why this is not true. As such, I will continue believing it. Just as I am sure you will all continue believing that she was lying/plans to doublecross him immediately/he'll never be back in the fold/whatever else until season three comes around.
Such is the beauty of free will.
luthien writes: You said Azula didn't need Zuko's help, then turned around and used her speech, which included the line "I can't do this without you" as evidence of her sincerity!
Rawles replies: I didn't use her speech as evidence of her sincerity. You pointed out that she cannot guarantee what she promises. I said that she could easily believe that what she promised would be the result even if she could not technically guarantee it. That is not asserting that every single word of what she said is gospel truth. The opposite in fact.
I fully admitted earlier that there was manipulation involved in getting him to choose her over Iroh. My argument is, and is alone, that her intention of bringing him back into the fold of Fire Nation politics is genuine.
luthien writes: And no, I *don't* mean because the writers didn't show us specifically Azula being duplicitous. Not every time she lies does it have to be revealed to the audience beforehand.
Rawles replies: Except it always has been before.
Obviously I think the absence of any indication that she isn't being sincere when it has always been indicated before (along with the fact that the reasoning for her not being sincere doesn't hold up) is enough to indicate that she is, in fact, being sincere. I've never stated that I had empirical proof to offer that she is being sincere, simply that I believe that there is enough in the text to indicate that she is; empirical proof about this matter cannot exist until season three airs, clearly.
Please note: I have already said that I'm tired of arguing about this because no one's mind is going to change. I've stated my case, in this conversation and at great length on numerous occasions before now, and the only reason I am posting on this thread again today at all instead of writing delightfully pointless fanfiction about Will and Elizabeth from Pirates of the Caribbean is because you PMed me and asked me to come back.
Again, you don't have to agree that she's being sincere. I still believe she is. Your disagreement or skepticism or anyone else's doesn't change my opinion. The only things that would change my opinion being: an overwhelmingly convincing argument for why she would bother to lie in this instance or empirical evidence that she was lying about her intention welcoming Zuko back into the fold. Haven't seen the former and season three isn't here until September, so!
This page was last updated: June 4th, 2007
This page is linked from: The Azula Portal
Behind the cut: What does the season 2 finale tell us about Azula's character? Was she being genuine in her offer to Zuko, and what were her motivations?
Debate #1
Someone writes: Azula is extremely ambitious and Zuko is in her way...
rawles, writing after "The Crossroads of Destiny:" The problem with reading Azula as deeply ambitious in light of the finale is that there was no reason for her to offer Zuko the chance to restore his honor. She didn't need his help to complete her coup in Ba Sing Se. In fact, her coup was already done. She could have just captured him the same way that she did Iroh instead of leaving Zuko there and giving him the chance to choose.
People assume some convoluted plan on her part to present Zuko to Ozai for his final rejection or whatever, but him having the distinction of having actually done something RIGHT in the Fire Nation's eyes by helping her, a distinction the she gave to him, isn't any sort of boon for that kind of plan.
The fact of the matter is, Zuko was dead-to-rights in the eyes of the Fire Nation. If Azula had just captured him she would certainly never have to worry about him threatening her place in the line of succession again. She's put him back "into play" so to speak of her own volition, an action that is completely counterproductive if her main motivating factor is actually Fire Lordly ambition. Which means, even though it shakes my initial reading of Azula to the core as well, that we should perhaps consider the possibility that it's not her main motivating factor.
And, mind you, I'm in no way saying that siding with Azula wasn't a dangerous decision because even if she is pleased with him now, Zuko's just not in the same place as her ethically and that's no doubt going to come to a head. But there remains that vague possibility that, in the moment, Azula really was doing Zuko a favor by offering him a last chance to finally do something right. There's a possibility that it wasn't in the interest of Zuko's destruction just because there was a much easier way to ensure that at her disposal and now all such plans are shaky and convoluted.
I find the idea that she offered Zuko that chance in order to split him from Iroh unlikely just because...yeah, Zuko's weaker without Iroh, but...Azula has never acted the least bit threatened by Zuko regardless of whether he's allied with Iroh.
There's no reason why, if she wanted to, she couldn't have taken them both and imprisoned them on separate ends of the city if she was worried about their alliance being a danger to her. (Which, again, she's never seemed terribly concerned about before.)
Someone replies: Zuko represents everything she hates: she's SECOND on the throne (so no "divine right to rule") she's a girl, she's better than Zuko but if he weren't such a screw up he'd get all the attention. She may value how painful it is for him to live with such a decision.
Rawles replies: There are a lot of problems with these things as motivators for Azula. The first being the the divine right to rule is a belief about all royalty. It's a necessary precept for monarchies as it refers to the idea that this family, people of this certain blood, have been touched by diety-of-choice and that's why they're in dominion over all others. The divine right is enjoyed by everyone in the line of succession, not just the firstborn or else there wouldn't be a line of succession because as soon if the firstborn died there'd be no one else worthy of taking his place. That's what she explains to Long Feng. She has the divine right to rule, not because she's currently at the top of the line of succession, but because she's royalty. Long Feng pulled himself up and into a position of power (not unlike her own father did as secondborn), but because he's a commoner, he still doesn't have the right to be in that position by Azula's estimation, where, of course, her father does.
We've never been given any indication that there's any prejudice against Azula because of her gender. Why on earth she would care about the idea that Zuko would "get more attention" if he didn't suck when he does, in fact, suck, and she's the clear favourite is beyond me. And it also, again, makes no sense in light of the fact that she just assisted him in doing something orchestrated to WIN him favor. And while I wouldn't put it past Azula to enjoy Zuko's torment, given that she actually tried to comfort him at the end of CoD, it doesn't seem like she's particularly interested in savoring this one.
Someone replies: Now she's free to use him as either cannon fodder or an excuse to daddy when she loses the city... ("oh I was gonna win but my stupid brother interfered") or just ship him off home on a "get more troops" errand and never see him again.
Rawles replies: Not that I don't think Azula would hesistate to throw Zuko on the grenade if it came to that...but when has Azula ever seemed like someone to expect failure? And like beyond that, when have we ever seen her make an excuse? On the rare occasion that Azula fails, she just tries another tactic. Indeed, she has been shown on various occasions to despise the passing of blame/making of excuses in others.
Azula strikes me as someone who, above all else, likes things to be effective and expedient. In The Avatar State, before Iroh and Zuko were aware of what was going on, the most expedient method was to get them to come along quietly. That failed and Azula was utterly undaunted. The thing about all of this plotting you're attributing to her in CoD is that it's not at all expedient.
Why would she need to go through all of this trickery to ensure Zuko's capture? Iroh's, sure. Iroh's a lot more powerful than Zuko. Except Iroh's too smart to fall for that so she just uses force. So there she is, with Ba Sing Se under her control, Iroh captured, and the Avatar on the run. Azula can kick Zuko's butt at will. If she really wanted to capture him, there's just no reason for her to bother with some convoluted plot wherein she keeps him free so he can second-guess and doubt himself and possibly cause her more trouble, when she could just smack him around and lock him up in five minutes flat then go about her business none the worse for wear.
I do think her change of heart about how to deal with Zuko came when she went down into the cave. I think she overheard Iroh telling Zuko that it was time for him to choose, finally, for real, and she knew that Iroh was unsalvageable, but that Zuko wasn't. She basically says as much. And I do think it was a genuine as she's capable of just because there's no logical path for duplicity here.
I'm beginning to think that Azula is hard to read or seems contradictory in some instances because we've all been making the mistake of looking at her largely in terms of absolutes. She's so ruthless and seemingly sociopathic that we go: pure evil.
So it becomes difficult to parse her actions that don't immediately seem to be pure evil.
Like as mentioned, she does play happily with Zuko in the flashback [when they were playing chase and they both seemed perfectly happy]. And if she just hates his guts and always has, there's no real way to explain that. Yes, she's pleased when Zuko fails, but then there is sibling rivalry. She taunts him because she's outperforming him and she's vindicated when he tries to outperform her and can't. It's certainly not nice by a long stretch, but is it evil? Does it actually indicate a seething hatred for her brother or just the fact that she's a cold, cruel little girl? She's mean to Ty Lee and Mai, as well, but do we think that she hates them? And, in addition, if they ever did anything to turn on the Fire Nation, do we think that she'd hesitate for a second to dispatch of them?
I think that Azula is a patriot, much like Zuko. I think she has the Fire Nation's best interest at heart. She's never actually expressed any desire to rule the Fire Nation and when she's pulling for Ozai to be made Fire Lord and deriding Azulon and Iroh, both times it's on the basis that they're not fit for it. (And mind, if Ozai becomes Fire Lord at that point then it's Zuko who's going to be the heir apparent.) Azulon isn't a powerful Fire Lord in her eyes anymore because he's old and frail. Iroh isn't going to make a powerful Fire Lord because he's "kooky," his temperament and his priorities are wrong in her estimation. These are faults can't really be rectified.
When Azula mocks Zuko in The Avatar State and calls him a miserable failure while she's fighting him with the intent of arresting him, at that point he is a miserable failure and at that juncture there was nothing he could do immediately to rectify the situation. But not so in CoD.
I think, in the end, it's as simple as this: Azula works on a system of merit. She had nothing to lose (or nothing she cares about, apparently) by giving Zuko a last chance to redeem himself. And when she does give him that opportunity he actually comes through and she's pleased about that. If she really does believe in the divine right, then she believes that Zuko has it too, and maybe, just maybe, she has an interest in him not squandering it like Iroh did.
The more I talk about it the more I believe that her approval was completely genuine and that it makes sense with what we know of Azula.
Someone replies: Yes but why is Zuko no longer a miserable failure in COD because he sided with her?
Rawles replies: I don't think it's because he chose to side with her. I don't think intention means that much to Azula. Clearly, the fact that he's still loyal means SOMETHING to her inasmuch as it means that he'll consider before he throws it all away for good; it means that she can appeal to his loyalty. But I think action is more important.
When I say that there was nothing he could do to rectify the situation in The Avatar State it's because he'd already failed and the Avatar was nowhere to be found. His loyalty isn't particularly meaningful without anything to back it up. Basically, at that point, it was too late. In The Chase, he's still loyal and trying to capture the Avatar, yes. BUT in his efforts to do this he's impeding Azula's efforts to do the same. He interrupts Azula. He fights both her and Aang, which is counterproductive to the cause of either of them capturing the Avatar for the Fire Nation. At the end of that battle he tacitly sides with Aang against her. He was more interested in defeating her than he was in helping the Fire Nation.
But in CoD, this is the first time he actually does something substantial to help the Fire Nation. He isn't toothless and without opportunity like in The Avatar State. He doesn't make the mistake of prioritizing his own desire to be the one and the one alone who captures the Avatar over the greater good like he does in The Chase (and recall, Zhao, another patriot, got pissed at Zuko for this exact same thing in season one). She has a plan for the glory of the Fire Nation and Zuko played his part. In Azula's eyes, he restores his honor by not just jabbering on about how he is the Prince of the Fire Nation, but by acting in a way worthy of that position.
To me it's basically a Occam's Razor thing.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one.
I just don't see any reason to ascribe all of these convoluted (and in many cases logically unsound) plans to Azula as motivation for her to offer Zuko the chance to restore his honor and come back into the fold, when it could just as easily be that she did it because she genuinely wanted him to restore his honor and be back in the fold.
You can argue how he's not REALLY back in good standing unless she actually tells Ozai so and she's disconnected him from his only ally and whatnot. But in the end, it's just easier and safer to toss him in some cell, put a guard around him, and ship him back home than it would be to do anything else. The idea that OMG HE MIGHT ESCAPE makes that an unwelcome option doesn't really make that much sense ESPECIALLY when the alternative is letting him wander around free when he's clearly conflicted about the choice he made and is actually in the position to do something about it.
Someone replies: seeing the war from a different perspective, she's actually developed some kind of conscience and is willing to give him a chance to redeem himself (in her and their father's eyes)
Rawles replies: I don't think her developing a conscience is at all necessary. The only motivator she needs is a belief in the strength and divine right of the Fire Nation royal family.
Someone replies: Even if she DOES genuinely want him back, and I'm not ruling this out...
Rawles replies: Which means that I can stop here because my point was that I think there's a strong possibility that Azula wasn't necessarily plotting some further betrayal of Zuko when she asked him to join her.
Whether it means he'll actually be accepted back, what it means for Ozai, what it means for the future of the Fire Nation...all of that is tangential to that initial point.
And I could construct some long involved spec based on my new reading of Azula as a patriot and someone who works on a system of merit, but I'm not going to right now. Because as long as we're agreed that it's not impossible for her to have been genuine in that moment, then I'm good.
Rawles replies to someone else: I guess I'll go against the grain entirely and say that I don't think that Azula would try to or encourage usurping the throne from Ozai unless he did something to make her feel that he was unworthy.
One of these days I'm really going to have to write up my character analysis of Azula in light of Crossroads of Destiny and how I think my new read of her makes her a much more interesting character than she otherwise might have been.
The basic thrust of my new reading of her is, yes, that she is ruthless and a fierce patriot and essentially that all of her major actions in the series have been motivated by those things rather than any sort of personal ambition.
And yeah I really should write up that meta in full. I suppose I will. Eventually!
Someone replies: As for Azula being patriotic... I don't see her that way. From childhood she was reaching for personal success and glory. She basically implied that she considered her grandfather too senile to keep on being Fire Lord. She dismissed her uncle, a powerful firebender and military strategist, as being nothing but a "royal tea-loving kookiness". She wished them both dead so that her father ascended to the throne. I don't see patriotism there. She may have said that Ozai would be a better Fire Lord than Iroh but she didn't mean that in the best interests of the Nation, but rather in *her* best interests. She's had a superiority complex for seemingly all her life. Having her father become Fire Lord would bring her one step closer to *her* becoming the ruler of the Fire Nation. Then her brother was taken out. Her goal seems closer still.
Rawles replies: She implied that her grandfather was old and had lost his bearing and his power and thus he was no longer fit to be Fire Lord. She thinks that her Uncle was too "kooky" to be fit to be Fire Lord and considering what happened with Iroh, the weakness that he showed by giving up at Ba Sing Se, she was right. She did, however, think that her father, ruthless and focused, was fit to be Fire Lord. There's nothing to indicate that personal ambition has anything to do with any of that other your assumption that it does. Especially since Ozai becoming Fire Lord made Zuko the heir, not Azula. And there's never been any proof or indication that Azula actively plotted to get rid of Zuko prior to him proving himself unworthy at his Agni Kai. And even after that she hasn't plotted to be rid of him so much as follow her father's orders to apprehend him. Then the icing on the cake being the fact that she welcomed him back into the fold as soon as he proved himself worthy of being there.
Everyone can assume that Zuko's childhood mantra that Azula Always Lies is objective reality, but I sincerely doubt it's that simple. (Especially since when we're introduced to said childhood mantra it's wrong because Azula isn't lying.) I also sincerely doubt, just for the sake of logic and adherence to Avatar's storytelling conventions, that she's misleading him now because 1) it would be a completely unnecessary and non-sensical deception and 2) there's been no indication given to the audience that she is which is directly contrary to the other times she's lied (which, frankly, has only been once; twice if you count posing as Kyoshi warriors).
Someone replies: I never said that Azula played a part in getting Zuko burned at the Agni Kai.
Rawles replies: I didn't say that you said that. I was simply making the point that as ruthless and driven as she is, if her motivation in supporting Ozai as Fire Lord was personal ambition then it seems like she would have.
Someone replies: I just said that once it happened, she was elated (clearly visible in her reaction to the burning), and since he's out of the picture, then she's next in line to the throne, an event that she was quite possibly happy about.
Rawles replies: I never said she wasn't a sadist and considering that Zuko was quite clearly proving himself unworthy in her eyes why wouldn't she be happy that she got to surpass him? I'm not arguing that Azula would ever reject the throne if it she was in the position to get it or even be unhappy with the fact that she ended up there if everyone ahead of her in line fell away for whatever reason, what I'm arguing is that angling for said throne is not her motivation.
Someone replies: She also deemed Iroh unfit to be Fire Lord *before* Lu Ten died and the siege at Ba Sing Se stopped.
Rawles replies: I know. I specifically said that his performance at Ba Sing Se proved her prior evaluation of his character and fitness correct. Not that it was the cause of her evaluation.
Someone replies: And Azulon was 'the picture of health' according to Ursa, so if what she said is true, then he was far from being senile.
Rawles replies: You used the word senile, I never did. I said that Azula clearly felt that in his old age Azulon had lost his bearing and his power. I'm not saying that she was right, I'm saying that was clearly her opinion since she specifically talks about how he's basically a little old man and not anywhere near the fearsome Fire Lord that he used to be.
Someone replies: As for Azula welcoming Zuko back into the fold, I don't believe that for a second. She doesn't consider Zuko 'worthy'. One moment she's throwing him in the catacombs, and the next she's telling him she needs his help. That doesn't look to me like a change of heart. That looks to me as taking advantage of the situation. She tells Zuko exactly what he wants to hear, so that he follows her blindingly. And even if there is no indication that she *is* misleading Zuko, by the same token there is no indication that she's *not*. Just because she treated him kindly in that last scene doesn't mean she was sincere. Ozai sent her to capture Zuko. She tried to lure him in by lying before. There's no reason why she wouldn't do it again. She could very well continue being nice to him and then at the end bite his head off, metaphorically speaking.
Rawles replies: I feel like I've already argued ad nauseum about whether Azula is misleading Zuko and explained at length (MUCH LENGTH) why I feel that it makes little to no sense logically, narratively, or otherwise for her to offer him what she did unless she was being sincere. So I'm going to agree to disagree here.
Someone replies: On the other hand, if you define patriotism as her thinking that the Fire Nation is the best in the world and everyone else is beneath them, and pushing forward a world-domination crusade, then sure, what the heck, she's a patriot. I just don't think that's an appropriate definition of the word.
Rawles replies: Patriotism means national loyalty. Devotion to one's nation. That's it. It doesn't mean that you're a good person. It doesn't mean that you're in the ethical right. It just means that you love your nation which people do in many different ways. And, yeah, when you're talking about an imperialist nation, thinking that the Fire Nation is the best in the world and everyone else is beneath them and pushing forth with a meglomaniacal crusade IS patriotism. Azula is dedicated to the glory of the Fire Nation, to the legacy of domination that her great-grandfather set forth. She's a patriot. Maybe you'd like the words nationalism or jingoism better as their connotations are more disparaging, but I was using patriot/ism as an objective term, not making any sort of value judgement on the method and ideals of Azula's particular brand of patriotism.
Someone wisely adds: My two cents-in addtion to the plot points that Rawles pointed out elsewehere, I'ld like to note that Azula sounded sincere. When she telling Zuko about going home in the Avatar State, there were small clues in her voice and tone that suggested she found this amusing, and then there was the clear contempt in her voice for most of the dialogue. On the other hand, in that final scene, there was none of that. Heck, I think it sounded like she actauly respected Zuko, and respect is as good as it gets from her. At the very least this suggests Azula's voice actress thought that was what Azula was feeling.
Someone replies: So CoD was just another chance to test her skills in manipulation, and either she succeeds or she doesn't, but in the end it doesn't really matter to her.
Rawles replies: Except that doesn't make any sense, because joy in manipulating people or not it's just plain stupid to let Zuko run around free for no other reason than to screw with his head.
I refuse to believe that Azula is, against all appearances and prior behavior, actually an idiot.
And re: how she sounded. I personally think she sounded very fake when talking to Long Feng, but I can even let that pass as a subjective thing. What isn't subjective is the fact that there's a difference between a character lying to another character and the audience being lied to. There are no narrative cues in Crossroads of Destiny to indicate that Azula is lying to Zuko, when there always have been before. There's no logical reason for her to be lying to him. So it follows, she probably wasn't lying.
Whether Azula had plans to deal with Zuko if he chose Iroh isn't germaine to my point. Besides, he was inside catacombs, how was he even going to get out without earthbending assistance?
My argument is in its most condensed form:
Azula did not have any immediate ulterior motives when inviting Zuko back into the fold in Crossroads of Destiny. She was not lying to him or misleading him in any way when she did so. She invited Zuko to join her in her victory because he is the Prince of the Fire Nation and her brother and if he actually acts in a manner worthy of being such then she has no problem with him, outside of her general problems with everyone in the world what with being a sadist.
Someone replies: Azula had no reason to keep her side of the bargain, but she told Zuko that he had already restored his own honor and didn't need Father for that. To me, that looks a lot like the start of driving a wedge between Zuko and Ozai.
Rawles replies: If Azula, by your reckoning, hates Zuko, then Ozai certainly does as well. Why on Earth would she need to drive a wedge between Zuko and Ozai? She's always been Ozai's favourite, Zuko has always been entirely useless in Ozai's eyes, not to mention that he was banished and imprisoned at Ozai's command. Driving a wedge between people only becomes necessary when they're remotely close to begin with.
Someone replies: Also, why would Azula give Zuko this chance in terms of her own self-interest? If Zuko's honor is restored, he will become the heir again and Azula will be second to him. Either Azula really did help Zuko out of entirely unselfish motives, or she has some scheme in mind that will use Zuko as a major piece.
Rawles replies: Exactly. And I'm subscribing to the former theory because I've yet to run into reasoning for the latter that makes any real sense.
If under the unsubstatiated assumption that Azula only cares about her own ambition and chance to ascend to the throne her actions make no sense without employing many other equally unsubstantiated assumptions and convoluted theories, then my instinct is that far more likely than those further unsubstantiated assumptions and convoluted theories being accurate is the original assumption being wrong.
When all is said and done, I'm just an Occam's Razor kind of girl.
Rawles replies to someone else: First, unsubstantiated and convoluted aren't the same thing.
Second, you're losing the thread here.
Occam's Razor refers to the philosophy that when you have multiple unproven theories of relative equality, the least convoluted (i.e. the one that requires the fewest assumptions) is probably the most accurate.
The original assumption is that Azula doesn't care about anything but her own personal ambition. But the fact that she has actually acted in a way that is contrary to this (i.e. doing something for Zuko that has no immediate or obvious benefit to her) is an indication that that original assumption is inaccurate. Thus, the idea that she might actually care about her brother is not unsubstatiated, as she has acted in a way that could conceivably indicate that she does.
However, in attempts to adhere to the original assumption that Azula's main motivator is personal ambition despite the fact that she has acted in a manner that directly contradicts that, you and various other people have come up with extensive and often very obtuse theories about how that particular action really is in her service.
But under the principle of Occam's Razor, those explanations will never be more likely to be accurate than the simplest one: that we were all wrong with the original unproven assumption that all she cares about is personal ambition.
You don't have to subscribe to that particular logical principle, but I do, and that's why I'm making the argument that I am. Which is ultimately all I was saying.
Rawles replies to someone else: SMBH, I said that you were losing the thread because the primary argument isn't that she cares about Zuko which you were arguing against based on her prior behavior. The primary argument is that her main motivation isn't personal ambition.
Or to state it another way, the phenomenon being explored is Azula offering Zuko the chance to team up with her and come back into the fold despite the fact that if he does so he will bump her down in the line of succession.
The two major explanations for this actions are:
1) That she is being dishonest/has a sinister ulterior motive that is in her own self-interest.
and
2) Her major motivation is not personal ambition.
Because there is no concrete evidence from prior in the series to prove or disprove either of these theories they are of equal weight.
However, theory #1 requires much projection and speculation and assumption about things that she could be doing beyond what she immediately seems to be doing. Theory #2 requires only taking what she is empirically doing at face value.
And because, again, these theories have equal weight, I choose to subscribe to the simpler one.
Rawles replies to someone else: Please don't push fallacious generalizations onto me.
I didn't say that all things ever should be taken at face value. I very clearly illustrated that I took something at face value in this particular singular instance because I find alternative arguments convoluted to the point of dubiousness.
Also, I have no idea what most people believed, but it was certainly clear to me that Azula would be a major villian just by virtue of all of the build-up she had.
Someone replies: Don't go getting all defensive, I'm not attacking your opinion and I'm not saying you said that everything should be taken at face value.
Rawles replies: You can attack my opinion all you want to. I have no problem with that. It's an opinion, by voicing it it's presented to be responded to in any way that anyone deems worthy.
However, by pointing out that everything shouldn't be taken at face value, it was implied that I was doing that as opposed to taking one specific thing at face value. If that's not what you meant, fine. But the way you presented your statement made it seem like that was the point you were making.
Someone replies: I'ld just like to point out one thought that crossed my mind-it is possible that if love is impossible for Azula, hate should be equally impossible.
Rawles replies: Indeed, by definition, sociopathy requires the absence of emotional connection or at least the presence of emotional connections that are extremely muted.
If Azula is, indeed, a sociopath, then she neither loves OR hates anyone.
Someone replies: Now that I think about it, people seem to have this black white obsession with villains. Either a villain is completely evil in every single corner of their life an incapable of a single good act, or they are in fact some poor misled puppy trying to make a better world.
Rawles replies: ITA. One of the other reasons that I like the idea of Azula being sincere in CoD is because it just makes her more interesting than if she was completely, entirely unfeeling MWAHAHAHA Evil.
Rawles replies to someone else: It's very nice that you can use dictionary.com.
Now how about you check out the DSM which states re: Antisocial Personality Disorder: "Some argue that a major component of this disorder is the reduced ability to feel empathy for other people. This inability to see the hurts, concerns, and other feelings of people often results in a disregard for these aspects of human interaction."
Or Robert Hare's Psychopathy Checklist: "Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret."
"Lacking feelings for others" = as previously mentioned, the absence of emotional connection or emotional connections being muted.
And even more in-depth discussions of sociopathy go into this lack of ability to feel any particular way about other people being vital in the lack of conscience and regard for societal norms.
Debate #2
diet otaku asks: the question is, did azula want to make that offer because she really wanted zuko by her side, or simply because she didn't want him getting in the way like he did in "the chase"?
Rawles replies: That's not a terribly valid question considering she already had him imprisoned and as such he couldn't have gotten in the way unless she released him in the first place. Of course, this goes back to the longstanding argument about whether Azula was genuine in her desire for Zuko to prove himself.
diet otaku replies: i'm thinking somehow she knew about iroh busting in to save him, and thus he wasn't really imprisoned. after all, once she left he just sort of wandered out on his own, didn't he?
Rawles replies: Clearly she knew about Iroh coming to save him as she immediately appeared to apprehend Iroh. He wandered out on his own because she gave him a choice which involved NOT imprisoning him like she did Iroh so that he could freely enact his choice. If she wanted to keep him captured all she would have had to do was have the Dai Li trap Zuko in a cocoon of crystal as well. It wasn't through any inability to apprehend him on Azula's part that saw Zuko wandering about. It was because she let him.
diet otaku replies: fine then, obviously azula offered zuko everything he ever wanted because she genuinely wants him to have it and she thinks he's a great firebender which is why she didn't imprison him, because she's just the sweetest little sister ever.
Rawles replies: Or she offered him everything he ever wanted because, as she stated, she knows he's not a traitor and she believes in the divine right, which he has and she would like to see him live up to instead of being a screw up his whole life.
Which, you'll note, he did, and she seemed quite pleased with the result.
Everything's not black and white, and no amount of sarcasm is going to make the events have played out any differently. Neither will it make my reading of what actually happened any less logical, if contrary to fandom's perception of Azula's character.
luthien replies: And given the information we've been presented so far, she doesn't appear to have any desire to see Zuko be a success, and in fact, delights in his failure.
Rawles replies: Except we have textual evidence that this is not true because she did something that didn't just have no apparent affect other than to be to his benefit, but makes no sense UNLESS it was just genuinely done mostly for his benefit.
I'm not going by information about what's to come either. I'm going by what happened on the screen. I see no reason to cling to the assumption that Azula hates Zuko's guts and would never do anything for his benefit when she clearly did something for his benefit (accepting that getting back into the fold of the Fire Nation is to his benefit in her view) with no logically perceivable ulterior motive.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone would ever offer me a logical, not ridiculously convoluted, and stretching in a way that would make Reed Richards jealous explanation for Azula's specific actions, I'd reconsider. But no one has ever offered much beyond, "Well, Azula is evil. So she must have evil ulterior motives."
luthien writes: she actually enjoys his suffering. Why then would she then want to see him get what he really wants?
Rawles replies: She's a sadist. She enjoys everyone's suffering. But we see her being proud of Zuko at the end of CoD and reassuring him when he is tormented.
If you think it's inconsistent with her character then take it up with the writers, I'd say.
luthien writes: Perhaps she's planning on using him against their father - pitting the two against each other and taking out whoever's left standing so she can ultimately be Fire Lord.
Rawles replies: Which is an assumption based on the unproven assumption that personal ambition is her major motivating factor. Not to mention that that doesn't make sense considering Azula is like five times the bender Zuko is, as such, it's not like he'd have any hope of besting Ozai if she doesn't. Furthermore, if she just wanted to sacrifice him to Ozai for her own amusement she could do that without actually allowing him to do something useful for once in his life and thus offer even the remotest chance of him gaining any approval from Ozai. Not to mention that turning Zuko against Ozai is a pretty dumb thing to set out to do considering he's completely driven by his need for Ozai's approval and is in the mess he is in because of his utter unwillingness to lift a hand to his father.
luthien writes: Perhaps she wants to use Zuko as a puppet political figure - knowing the Fire Nation nobles might be more accepting of the male heir as leader, she makes sure that happens but then acts as his "advisor."
Rawles replies: This has no support in the text considering that no one has ever once voiced even the slightest objection or even vaguest surprise at three teenaged noble girls running around ordering troops and carrying out sensitive missions for the Fire Lord. There's nothing to indicate that Azula wouldn't be easily accepted as an heir to the throne.
luthien writes: Maybe she wants Zuko back in the Fire Nation so that when he is arrested, there's less chance of his escape since the place is crawling with Fire Nation troops.
Rawles replies: She already had him captured. Dead. To. Rights. Why on earth would she need to deceive him to get him to come back to the Fire Nation when she could just as easily take him back as a prisoner? Which, again, he was before she released him on his own recognizance.
luthien writes: Maybe she just enjoys dangling what Zuko wants most in front of him because she likes to see him squirm.
Rawles replies: Dangling to see him squirm would require actually...snatching back what she was dangling.
luthien writes: Or maybe she does think having him on her side benefits her more than having him as a potential opponent.
Rawles replies: And then we arrive once again at how Azula can smack Zuko around like a little child and didn't really need his help to do anything. She had it all under control with her army of Dai Li and her coup of Ba Sing Se. In fact, the only way she was ever even remotely vulnerable was when she let herself be by sending away to Dai Li and giving Zuko the chance to either assist her or go about his business. And having him back in the fold pushes her DOWN in the line of succesion. How is that to her benefit?
luthien writes: However, I don't think in any way her actions are primarily motivated by her concern for Zuko's well-being. [...] Azula has never shown herself to care about anyone else but herself.
Rawles replies: I didn't say it was primarily motivated by her concern for his well-being. I said she believes in the divine right to rule, thinks that Zuko is NOT a traitor, and has the same blood as she does and as such is the rightful heir to the throne if he proves himself worthy by acting like it. She gave him a chance to act like it. He proved himself worthy.
And again she had never shown herself to care about anyone...until she did this for Zuko.
Ouroboros writes: She's not stupid, she knows Long Feng isn't her friend
Rawles replies: Which would be why she overthrew him? The Dai Li openly defied their master at the moment of truth for her, I don't honestly think Azula is terribly worried about their loyalty to her. Or that it'll even be much of a factor in season three considering we already know we're skipping forward a few weeks and will open in the Fire Nation.
Ouroboros writes: She wanted Zuko on her side because she knows him, can manipulate him at will, and can count on his loyalty to the Fire Nation.
Rawles replies: Which I never denied? Indeed the fact that she knows he's loyal was one of the reasons I stated as to why she gave him the opportunity. I'm not even saying there was no manipulation involved in the exchange because clearly Azula knew exactly how to appeal to Zuko to make him accept her offer over Iroh's pleas for him to choose good. But that does not negate the truth of what the offer was.
What I am arguing against is that Azula's main motivator in this was some manner of labyrinthine plan fueled by personal ambition. Because in terms of Azula's personal ambition, bringing Zuko back into the fold just doesn't make sense. Because once again he was a prisoner. She did not need manipulation to have him under control because she had him under control by force. And that was far more expedient and effective and far less dangerous.
Letting him wander free just on the strength of the idea that he'll be loyal to her is what makes him a loose cannon.
luthien writes: Is she really proud of him at the end of the episode, or is she just trying to assuage his doubt? His statement indicated he was waivering, and she needed to convince him what he did was right so he would stick with her. Again, self-serving.
Rawles replies: Which only works in support of your argument if you make a convincing argument for why him being on her side is self-serving in the first place.
luthien writes: On another note, isn't an assumption by its very nature unproven?
Rawles replies: Actually what I should have said was that it was an unsupported assumption and is, in fact, contradicted by the instance we're discussing.
luthien writes: But we all know how that turned out, so why should I believe her motivations are any different this time around? What has changed to make you believe she isn't as back-stabbing as she was back then?
Rawles replies: Because in The Avatar State it was made clear textually that Azula was lying. At no point was the AUDIENCE under the mistaken impression that Azula actually intended on doing anything other than locking Zuko up. Iroh was also suspcious.
Compare that to Crossroads of Destiny in which there is no indication given at any point that Azula is being anything but honest in her offer to Zuko and the assumption that she is not is based entirely on audience expectation. And note when Iroh objects he doesn't say, "Oh, she's lying, Zuko! Remember before!" Note he just counsels Zuko that the redemption Azula is offering him is not what he should want, but he doesn't contradict the idea that she's actually offering him redemption.
The reason I believe that she isn't misleading Zuko in this specific instance is because there are simply no textual cues indicating that she is.
luthien writes: And she guaranteed things she's not even in the place to guarantee. She can't back up *any* of those promises, which makes them empty. Can she really promise their father's love? No. Can she really promise Ozai will restore Zuko's honor? No.
Rawles replies: She promised him these things based on her understanding of her father, which Zuko apparently believed was reasonably accurate as well. The fact that she cannot technically guarantee what she offers is not proof that she doesn't believe that that is what her offer will lead to. In other words, it's not proof that she's lying.
luthien writes: And she certainly could be dangling this in front of him. Oh she hasn't yanked things back yet, but that isn't to say she couldn't.
Rawles replies: Again, season three opens three weeks later. In the Fire Nation.
If she wanted to dangle what he wanted in front of him and then snatch it back, it seems like she would have done that in the moment. Because, seriously, delayed gratification is not good enough payoff to warrant her letting him roam around free for weeks for no reason.
Ouroboros writes: I think her offer was genuine in that she meant exactly what she said to him, but I don't think that doesn't mean she doesn't have ulterior motives or plans to manipulate him further for her own gain.
Rawles replies: Yes. Again, I am not saying that she it is impossible for her to have ulterior motives. I am saying that those ulterior motives are not in the service of securing the throne for herself because genuinely welcoming Zuko back into the fold does not accomplish that for her. In fact, it does the exact opposite.
SMBH writes: To capture Iroh and Zuko and bring them back to the Fire Nation. I'd say she got it pretty good there. Iroh is captured and Zuko is going back out of his own free will, which makes things simpler for her because she only has to worry about one prisoner, not two. And she took down the Earth King and she killed the Avatar. Pretty good day for her Smiley Was she proud of Zuko at the end? Of course she was. He did exactly as she wanted him to do.
Rawles replies: I and others have already pointed out endless, endless times that it makes no sense for her to manipulate Zuko when he was already her prisoner.
SMBH writes: About "the divine right to rule" -- she certainly deems herself to have that right. Does she think Zuko is worthy of that right? I don't know. She seems to have been putting him down for a long long time. And if what she told him about Azulon telling Ozai to kill Zuko is true, well, she wasn't exactly ready to mourn his death. With Zuko out, she's next. Not saying that that's her only goal in life, but it'd be something that she wouldn't mind.
Rawles replies: The problem being Zuko was already out. She doesn't have to do anything to make herself next in line for the throne because she already was. Which makes all of her actions in CoD nonsensical and pointless if you view them as being in service of her paving her way to the throne.
And she's been putting Zuko down for a long time because he didn't measure up. I don't feel like revisiting my Azula: Ruthless Patriot reading in length, but the point being, she dismisses those she sees as being unworthy. Iroh because he is a "kook" and a traitor. Azulon because his days of effectiveness were behind him. Zuko because he was a screw up. Iroh is already too fargone. Azulon couldn't make himself young again. Zuko, however, could do something right for a change. She gave him the opportunity to and he took it.
luthien writes: Even if his firebending skills aren't up to hers, he still can serve as an annoyance (in that he's relentlessly persistent). And annoyances aren't what she needs at this point. Having Zuko on her side is a benefit, because he's there, he's in sight, she knows what he's up to - and she knows she can control him.
Rawles replies: He's there, in sight, and she knows what he's up to when he's her prisoner too.
luthien writes: Her history is what I'm basing my assumption on - not this particular instance. Who's to say it's not an aberration? So why say I'm wrong?
Rawles replies: I say you're wrong/I disagree because of the lack of textual cues that I already pointed out. There is nothing to indicate that she is lying in that particular instance. So, I don't think she was. It's not like she's never told the truth before. I think Azula either lies or tells the truth when it suits her. In this particular instance I think what suited her was what she believed to be true.
luthien writes: And I don't believe we've ever seen anything stating specifically that Season 3 *begins* in the Fire Nation.
Rawles replies: In the Beckett Pokemon interview Mike says that it starts three weeks after the end of season three begins already in the Fire Nation. Granted, that doesn't expressly state that Azula and co. will be in the Fire Nation, but there's no real reason to think they won't be and honestly this is tangential to the point that that it just makes no sense for her not to keep him as her prisoner. Especially in the interest of idly screwing with his head. It's just a stupid risk.
SMBH writes: Well, I don't view her actions as nonsensical and pointless
Rawles replies: If she's doing it all even remotely in the interest of paving her own way to the throne, yeah, they are.
You don't have to think so, but I certainly do.
Polychrome writes: Zuko was the "deciding vote" in a fight that Azula could easily have *lost*. Think about it... She was barely holding her own when it was just Aang and Katara fighting her.
Rawles replies: Because she sent the Dai Li away in order to offer Zuko his chance.
She did not actually need him until she left herself partially vulnerable in the interest of enticing him to her side.
Polychrome writes: Azula is a woman, and my feeling is that despite Zuko's supposed incompetence at finding the Avatar and such, Zuko's still technically the heir, and if he's not in the Fire Lord's good graces, that might mean that the throne would be passed to another noble, which could be Mai's baby brother for all we know.
Rawles replies: As I stated earlier, there is nothing in the text to support the idea that Azula, as a woman, could not be the heir to the throne. We've never really seen anything of the Fire Nation's gender politics to indicate that she wouldn't be and the fact that she, Ty Lee, and Mai, run around commanding armies and being sent on special missions of the utmost importance and no one ever seems to treat this as if it is even remotely unusual seems to indicate that women in command are not anathema to the Fire Nation.
Polychrome writes: Azula knows that Zuko and Iroh as outcasts are potentially, together and/or with the avatar, very powerful enemies. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, right? If Zuko believes he's welcome back to the Royal Family and has everything he wants, he might be less inclined to betray the fire nation, and Iroh alone and in prison might be unable to put up much of a fight.
Rawles replies: If she imprisons them, takes them back to the Fire Nation, and Ozai executes them both how dangerous they were or how inclined they might be to betray the Fire Nation isn't really terribly relevant is it?
SMBH writes: Well, you may have pointed that out countless times, but it doesn't make it any more correct than other people's interpretations.
Rawles replies: My point wasn't that my interpretation is inherently more valid. My point was that no one has ever explained exactly why it would make logical sense for her to go through the trouble of manipulating Zuko whilst he was already exiled, dishonored, and her prisoner if her ultimate goal is for him to end up such anyway.
Essentially, I was saying: no one has refuted the point that counters this argument yet so why should I keep repeating it at length?
This remains true. I have yet to see a reasonable explanation for why Azula would not just keep Zuko as her prisoner if her motivator is personal ambition. Even if her motivator is just to cause him pain. You don't think it would have caused him pain to be jailed and tormented physically and mentally as she brought him home to his shame?
All in all, I don't know why I keep dragging myself into this argument again and again since I got tired of it a really long time ago. I think Azula was being genuine in her offer. I think she is really welcoming Zuko back into the fold and back in the fold is where he will be in season three. No one has offered what I feel is a reasonable or convincing argument based on the text for why this is not true. As such, I will continue believing it. Just as I am sure you will all continue believing that she was lying/plans to doublecross him immediately/he'll never be back in the fold/whatever else until season three comes around.
Such is the beauty of free will.
luthien writes: You said Azula didn't need Zuko's help, then turned around and used her speech, which included the line "I can't do this without you" as evidence of her sincerity!
Rawles replies: I didn't use her speech as evidence of her sincerity. You pointed out that she cannot guarantee what she promises. I said that she could easily believe that what she promised would be the result even if she could not technically guarantee it. That is not asserting that every single word of what she said is gospel truth. The opposite in fact.
I fully admitted earlier that there was manipulation involved in getting him to choose her over Iroh. My argument is, and is alone, that her intention of bringing him back into the fold of Fire Nation politics is genuine.
luthien writes: And no, I *don't* mean because the writers didn't show us specifically Azula being duplicitous. Not every time she lies does it have to be revealed to the audience beforehand.
Rawles replies: Except it always has been before.
Obviously I think the absence of any indication that she isn't being sincere when it has always been indicated before (along with the fact that the reasoning for her not being sincere doesn't hold up) is enough to indicate that she is, in fact, being sincere. I've never stated that I had empirical proof to offer that she is being sincere, simply that I believe that there is enough in the text to indicate that she is; empirical proof about this matter cannot exist until season three airs, clearly.
Please note: I have already said that I'm tired of arguing about this because no one's mind is going to change. I've stated my case, in this conversation and at great length on numerous occasions before now, and the only reason I am posting on this thread again today at all instead of writing delightfully pointless fanfiction about Will and Elizabeth from Pirates of the Caribbean is because you PMed me and asked me to come back.
Again, you don't have to agree that she's being sincere. I still believe she is. Your disagreement or skepticism or anyone else's doesn't change my opinion. The only things that would change my opinion being: an overwhelmingly convincing argument for why she would bother to lie in this instance or empirical evidence that she was lying about her intention welcoming Zuko back into the fold. Haven't seen the former and season three isn't here until September, so!