I can see how the American Union could hurt the U.S. But really only the Mexican portion. Kinda like when they reunited West and East Germany all the East Germans came into the West looking for handouts and acting like a drain on the economy. So that would suck, but I wouldn't have any real issue with Canada and us tag teaming. They're not the wealthiest or most productive country, but for the most part they seem to have their shit together.
Maybe... but that's the same argument the critics of the EU made - that countries like Portugal, Italy, and Ireland will benefit while France, German and Britain will be brought down. What actually happened was that the poor countries prospered enormously, and the rich countries, well, prospered.
Don't get me wrong. I oppose NAFTA, and I agree that a more open Canadian-US relations can be beneficial for both. I just don't think international economics is a simple as you make it out to be.
Yeah and look what's happening with the EU. The "constitution" was rejected by a number of countries but its still being pushed down their throats. The EU parliament (or whatever its called) is constantly overriding national sovereignty by passing a number of laws and quotas.
Oh please. "Number of countries" as in two: Netherlands and, your favorite, France. "Pushed down their throats" seem extreme when they chose to enter into the EU and they have the choice of withdrawing anytime they want (Greenland did, when it was the EC). Besides, if it's so unpopular, why did 10 new countries just join a few years ago and more wanting in?
I figured that was what was happening.mortalterrorAugust 12 2007, 03:23:51 UTC
I just didn't feel like doing the research. I sort of thought that the same thing probably happened when America tried to ratify the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and the U.S. Constitution. As Wesley Snipes would say, "Some motherfuckers always be trying to ice-skate uphill."
Are you honestly trying to say that the EU has NOT been an end-run to deteriorate national sovereignty?
More are wanting in because of the governments of those countries, not necessarily because of the people themselves. Governments of second rate countries want in so they can get their share of the quotas and socialized hand-outs.
No thanks, I'd rather have the United States of America than the Pan-American Union.
It's going that way whether we want it to or not, Tim. Nothing we can do to stop it. In fifty or seventy-five years, we'll be swallowed up by Mexico. Right now, we at least have enough money and clout to make our own terms.
I never said anything of the sort. Of course it reduces national sovereignty, that's the whole point. Just like you can't give the Federal Gov't more power without taking away some from the States, you can't have a centralized government without taking some from each nation. It's just a matter of establishing a good balance.
I also disagree with your point that it's all the government and not what the people want. I just scanned through public opinion polls for the last decade in Europe and the approval rating for the EU has hovered in the 70~80% range, and the highest percentage of disapproval by citizens of any given country was ~30% (Croatia, 2004). I mean, come on, all the member states are Democracies - they can't do WHATEVER they want. They need to get reelected too.
Well I'm in favor of stronger states' rights and a weaker central government, so the concept of centralizing government on a regional basis absolutely appalls me.
I was reading this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3954327.stm The only two countries that approved it with a popular vote were Luxembourg (56%) and Spain (77%). All the rest approved with parliamentary votes. If parliamentary votes had been held in France and The Netherlands, it would have passed there too. When all the major parties in a country are for it, then what choice does the population really have unless they get a popular vote?
It is the same way here in the USA. The Republicans and the Democrats want a North American Union, but know they would never get their way if they put it out for a popular vote. So they just do these end-runs around national sovereignty. It is one of the sad symptoms of the false choice between Republican and Democrat.
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Don't get me wrong. I oppose NAFTA, and I agree that a more open Canadian-US relations can be beneficial for both. I just don't think international economics is a simple as you make it out to be.
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More are wanting in because of the governments of those countries, not necessarily because of the people themselves. Governments of second rate countries want in so they can get their share of the quotas and socialized hand-outs.
No thanks, I'd rather have the United States of America than the Pan-American Union.
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I also disagree with your point that it's all the government and not what the people want. I just scanned through public opinion polls for the last decade in Europe and the approval rating for the EU has hovered in the 70~80% range, and the highest percentage of disapproval by citizens of any given country was ~30% (Croatia, 2004). I mean, come on, all the member states are Democracies - they can't do WHATEVER they want. They need to get reelected too.
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I was reading this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3954327.stm
The only two countries that approved it with a popular vote were Luxembourg (56%) and Spain (77%). All the rest approved with parliamentary votes. If parliamentary votes had been held in France and The Netherlands, it would have passed there too. When all the major parties in a country are for it, then what choice does the population really have unless they get a popular vote?
It is the same way here in the USA. The Republicans and the Democrats want a North American Union, but know they would never get their way if they put it out for a popular vote. So they just do these end-runs around national sovereignty. It is one of the sad symptoms of the false choice between Republican and Democrat.
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