I am now thinking of a scenario where the Allspark was on Earth before humans even started developing, but was sent off (by God) to keep it from unduly influencing them. It landed on a barren planet, did what it does and created the Cybertronian people, they grew up, got into a war that culminated with it being shot into space... and it kinda followed it's original track back "home" to Earth.
Somewhere in there it's possible the Fallen found out about Earth directly from it, disliked the developing humans it found there and decided it made a good spot to spring his trap for the other Primes (the idea of a trap was comic canon).
Yeah you have to remember all the names the Cybertronians have come up with in English are basically translations. Maybe the original Cybertronian name for the Ark spaceship has just as much religious overtones as the word "Ark" does in English, so it was the best translation.
This whole idea opens up even more thoughts of how much Cybertron has been in contact with Earth, and how much of Cybertronian history has snuck into Earth myth, legend and religion. There's a lot of back and forth going on.
Maybe it is only fanon, but I always had an impression that the whole "Cain and Abel" thing meant the Winchesters were descended from Abel, and the Campbells from Cain. Both lines are powerful bloodlines, but the Apocalypse could only go ahead when the two were crossed, giving rise to brothers who mirror not only their ancestors, but Michael and Lucifer as well.
Mostly I am willing to accept that the "Only an angel can kill an angel" thing is a fallacy, but only as far as archangel True Vessels are concerned. Even a normal vesel like Jimmy Novak wouldn't be able to kill an angel, but Dean could because hey! Michael's Vessel! He has to be strong!
Yes dean, aliens are real, but they don't abduct people and give 'em anal probes (that's faeries), they're the sentient robotic products of the Ark of the Covenant.
Random thought: If surviving strange shit is part and parcel to being a Vessel, maybe the whole near-death experience in Egypt with the Matrix and meeting the Original Primes means Sam Witwicky is a potential Vessel? For who, I don't know, but I am willing to volunteer Gabe for the angel in question (there's something hilarious to my mind about that combination).
Also given the lingering fanon that that incident means Sam is a Prime, I also wonder if that means the Dynasty of Primes is actually a Cybertronian Vessel dynasty? It does fit with my thought on why only Primes could kill the Fallen, but does it mean someone could also possess Optimus? (I volunteer Vector Prime for that role, because if Optimus is going to be a Vessel, I want him a Vessel for a Cybertronian angel, and I like Vector Prime.)
Two things: 1) The very core of earth is metal too. So maybe Earth has its own allspark? 2) I always got the feeling that Cybertron is much older than earth. Maybe it was the other way around? Primus built Cybertron, etc. and thought, well let's try it a second time and went to earth . and took a small part of the original allspark with him and made from it the core of earth.
The Fallen found out - yes, that would be a very good idea. He would not only trap the Primes, but show Primus himself what he thinks about him.
About the matter of the Ark translation, I completely agree. It's has different names in different languages. Maybe even on earth.
Cain und Abel is a nice idea for SPN. I always thought that the Campbell's are simply cursed - but maybe the descendants of Cain were cursed to hunt evil?
And there is no one stronger than Dean. I always thought that his father didn't break in hell was a myth. He broke - but he wasn't a righteous man. (No father that left his children so much alone can be righteous)
Sam Witwicky as a potential vessel - better than him being a Prime. Never understood those fans. Sam would so freak out :D "I'm a vessel for sam alien angel? Are you serious?!" Gabe the messenger - could be that he knew of Cybertron?
Optimus Prime a vessel... I don't know. I always more thought of him as something along the line of a warrior Jesus. ... ... that's an idea. Prime's the vessel for Jesus himself. They're much more sturdier than humans, live longer and bigger. :D (you don't have to take this idea 100% serious ;) )
So the Allspark was just kinda drawn to it's twin, only planetary surface got in it's way so it never quite got to it's twin.
Interestingly enough, the supposed "curse" that was put on Cain was no such thing. It was actually a protection, because after going and killing his brother, Cain would have likely had siblings up the wazzoo out to punish him for it, so God protected him, promising that anyone who hurt him would get punished... what was it, seven times seven?
So maybe Cain felt obligated to live up to that and became the first hunter ever, and his family has been hunters for millenia, until they crossed bloodline with Abel's line and Sam and Dean were faced with an Apocalypse.
I've seen a few good fics that put forward the idea that John knew why Hell wanted him to break, so he fought even harder not to. They learned not to warn Dean once they got him, so Dean didn't know there was going to be more consequences than just him starting to turn into a demon. I also think there may be a case to argue that even if John counted as "righteous", maybe Hell needed Dean in particular because he was Michael's Vessel, and they needed a specific Righteous Man to break in Hell.
Besides, it's apparently a common refrain, demons lie, so Alistair was probably being rather selective about exactly what he was telling Dean. Enough truth to hurt, but not enough to give any hope.
Sam (Witwicky) would have a bigger freakout than both of the Winchesters combined did. Meanwhile, said brothers stand back and are all "Is this kid for real?!"
I like the idea that the angels know what else is out there. I read a fic not long ago (a WIP, but it's close to being finished) that is an SPN/Doctor Who crossover where Cas gets River Song to act as his vessel after his old one got destroyed by the escaping Leviathans. It had a scene where he could talk to the Tardis because it's a Gallifreyan angel.
The point being, maybe other worlds have their own angels watching over them. Angels such as Cas only work on Earth, but the Archangels might be allowed to cross "departments" and talk to the angels of other worlds. So while he lives and tricks on Earth, Gabriel theoretically knows about Cybertron.
... Optimus Prime, vessel of Prima... who just happens to also be the same celestial entity as Jesus. XD
Sorry, that I reply only now, I was a bit busy the last few days.
"planetary surface got in the way": That sounds so absurd and logical - awesome. :D
Seven times seven sounds right. And so while Able's descendants got more and more, Cain's were a small family because they always died too fast protecting the rest of humanity.
I really go with the "demons lie". Alistair was too intelligent, too experienced not to choose the words that hurt Dean the most - whatever the truth may be. And we have learned that breaking in hell doesn't mean you can't enter heaven. Dean did enter.
Oh yeah, the brothers would stand there and just kind of accept it, while Sam would totally freak :D I mean aliens is worse enough. But an intergalactic fight between aliens and angels?!
Oh, that DocWho/SPN ff you have to sent me. ;)
I can immagine Gabriel knowing what's out there. It would explain why he takes most thing a bit differently - and why Lucifer knew who the Fallen is and talked with him.
I can't see Castiel knowing. Poor angel boy was shocked by cell phones - meet aliens would probably freak him just as much as Sam. Oh and Zachariah :D His reaction would be extreme. "God didn't only create mud monkeys, but a whole other species, too? And that species is older than us?!" It would kind of kill his reason for thinking humans inferior ->younger, mortal, less powerful). Cybertronians -> older, can die but it's difficult, and able to travel through the galaxy by not even using a spacce ship.
Oh god, Optimus Prime vessel of Jesus, this is great and sooo crazy :D It would explain why always when Optimus dies he comes back sooner or later. ;)
Now we only need a story now to put all these ideas into. ^^
Icon: You're Icon is great. :D I can Megatron totally seeing doing that. That would be something... War between Autobots/Decepticons? Forget it. Nowadays it's war between humans&angels/Cybertronians on the believe who the real and false god is.
Even for the Allspark, there's only so far it can get through Earth's crust before it gets stuck for a few million years, before humans build a dam around it.
I find it a little ironic, the idea of Cain being the forefather of hunters. Some other fandom canons has Cain the forefather of vampires (well we know that SPN the fore-mother of vampires is Eve). I just feel it's a nice ironic role reversal.
After everything the Winchesters have seen, adding real aliens to their list is probably not that big a thing.
On the other hand, maybe with his job as the so-called "Sheriff of Heaven" he found out a bit more about the other "departments" for other planets, or at least that while he was busy helping Sam and Dean prevent the Apocalypse, there were beings from one of those other planets on Earth.
I recall the date on the paper when Dean was September 2008 so the latter part of season 4 going into season 5 would be 2009, so some time while they were busy running around trying to stop the apocalypse the Autobots were trying to put a stop to the Fallen's Sun Harvester plot... and oh, that timing could also mean Lucifer and the Fallen could have merrily discussed their various plans.
That icon is actually Ironhide. It came from a fic (I have no idea where to find it though), where he got asked the question ("Do you accept Jesus as your lord and saviour?") and he came out with that reply ("NO. Do you accept Primus as yours?") during a conversation with human politicians.
Somehow I can totally see a running argument between an Autobot and a human over the religion thing while Cas is standing off to the side, puzzled and doing his typical head tilt (and Dean's already wandered off, swearing about stupid religious debates), and meanwhile Gabe (who is totally not dead for reasons I'll leave up to fic writers) starts laughing his head off and when everyone suddenly looks at him he makes some glib quip about how it's all the same guy.
Yeah, it's kind of ironic... but then this whole idea is kind of ironic and crazy. ;)
Probably not. I have to admit I don't like the idea with the Leviathans too much.
Thanks!
No saying what he had found out and what not... With heaven in chaos there was information leaked in all departments, as later proven by the weapons and Leviathans. Why not this information, too? Let's say the archangels knew about Cybertonians and the Ark and all - and protected the Allspark by throwing a veil over it, so it was hidden by all supernatural and simply called it "another heavenly weapon". And with the apocalypse the wrong kind of people started searching for the weapon, but didn't found it. Until that faithful day in mission city were Sam activates the allspark (and finally that would make sense, too - it reacted to a vessel). Cue in: Suddenly not only are there aliens and humans fighting in mission city, no. Demons and angels join also - humans freak out and the Cybertronians do what is natural: If you're facing a foreign superior forces, they join their own forces (who knows that this foreign race does with the allspark!).
I love Lucifer and Fallen discussing everything. They would hate each other, but feel so similar, too...
That's a great dialogue and so true. :D Just because they're aliens doesn't mean they don't have a god.
Gabriel never died. ;) My favourite reason is, so far, that the real Loki saved him.
*laughs* Oh yeah, that takes religious discussion to a whole new level. Especially if other gods (of SPN) or religions (those terrorists in the movie?) join in, too. Gab would laugh and laugh and laugh. This would be the greatest joke of all. And Crowley would just stand there and try to calculate the worth of a spark - more or less than a soul?
I haven't been too fond of the Leviathans either, but mostly because I came to the SPN fandom basically a ready-made Cas!girl and I begrudge what he's been through because of them, and also Bobby being shot.
The thing is, the whole first movie happens before the angels are officially walking the Earth again. Oh, I can see them adding an extra layer of protection on the Allspark, but I have this idea that it's already depleted in power so besides writing Enochian sigils into the structure of Hoover Dam while it was being constructed, they may have just left it alone and even when the Mision City incident happened, did not think it too much of a problem, believing the humans and Autobots could handle it (if things had gone Megatron's way they may have had to intervene).
But as I said, the events of RotF would fall practically right in the middle of the Apocalypse events.
On Lucifer and the Fallen, I'm not sure their goals would mesh at all. I still haven't watched "The End", but from what I know, Lucifer never actually wanted to destroy the Earth, he just wanted to get rid of humans. The Fallen's plans however would destroy the whole planet, and I really can't see Luci all that happy about that, so the conversation between those two might not end very nicely.
I could see Luci sending demons to try and get a hold of the Matrix, but if the events are running concurrent to each other, the Fallen might end up dead and Luci back in the Cage before any results on that front, and the Matrix is safely in Optimus's care.
It's only a year and a half later when everyone is hunting Heavenly weapons that it becomes an issue again.
It's probably obvious that I think the best crossover point is 6th season SPN.
Aside from the question of whether the Christian God is more valid than Primus, there's the piles of issues about pagan gods actually existing as well. True, it seems they aren't nearly as high-ranked as even the angels and the Christian God is at the top of the heap, but just in the circumstance of a religious debate it'd be hilarious, especially if it's Gabe venturing that information (as well as his own role as a pagan god, on top of his archangel status).
I always thought sparks were basically souls anyway, just maybe a slightly different format to human ones, since they're meant to go into robotic bodies. That would mean they have practically the same value, though if different planets have different sections of Heaven, then maybe Hell is also compartmentalised by planet as well. The Cybertronian Pit may be somewhere Crowley does not have command, and has it's own demons.
I am however at a loss as to define exactly where Unicron fits into this set-up, unless, for this crossover at least, "Unicron" just happens to be the name applied to Lucifer in Cybertronian religious texts.
I was fan pf SPN from the second season on, so Castiel was just a very welcomed addition. :D My favourite is Dean.
I don't like the Leviathans. For me the story ended with the end of season 5. <.<
You know it would be great if the whole Hover Dam was full of sigils and kind of glowing.
I see. But in SPN and Transformers the timeline can be moved a bit, it doesn't have to be fixed. That said, RotF at the same time as season 5... nice. :) It would twist everything.
*laugh* Can you imagine it? Lucifer trying to destroy the Fallen and Castiel and the Winchester standing there: "So, the devil is trying to save the earth from the devil of an alien race... right?" "Looks like it." "Now I've seen everything." That would really be a crazy alliance. Prime working together with the devil? I have to laugh at the idea alone!
I think season 5 has its own lovely possibilities, too. But we can stretch the whole thing across three seasons. 4 to 6. I mean we have three movies...
Oh yes, I wonder what the pagan gods would say to another all powerful entity - of an alien planet no less! I always thought that the pagan gods were once much more powerful than the angels, but with no believers they just diminished... Hilarious is the right word. Can you imagine then all looking to Gabriel as the only one who can even begin to compare the gods and Gods?
Oh, that's a nice idea. Instead of conquering purgatory, why not another hell? It's own demons... mmh, do you know Shattered Glass? What if it is no alternate universe, but hell - and the "nice" Decepticons are in reality the captured sparks?
If we have the Fallen as a Lucifer equivalent Unicron is really a bit... redundant. Unicron could be simply another god of another planet. If humans have pagan gods, why not Transformers, too?
Just cutting in to make a comment that no one else seems to have mentioned (but feel free to correct me if they have, I sorta skimmed.)
I always took "only an angel can kill an angel" as referring to the fact that only another angel has an angel killing blade. We were introduced to that concept shortly after the quote (same episode even) and Dean used the blade Cas dropped to stab Zachariah after all.
My apologies for the interruption. I'll just slip back into lurkerville now.
Re: Killing angelsskylar_matthewsApril 29 2012, 02:14:10 UTC
You totally have a point too and I'm not trying to force anything on anyone. I don't even care if my bit gets used or not, I just like sharing thoughts that haven't come up yet. Ideally I help people figure out something they never understood, but just offering another angle to observe from is good too.
(Whose to say just anyone can wield an angel blade anyway? I read a fic where Dean died to help Cas out with some issue up in Heaven and when he nearly stabbed Balthazar with Cas's blade all the other angel could do was ask how he could even touch the thing. (Because in Heaven it was a manifestation of an angel's will or something.) Just more thoughts on the matter....)
Thanks too, about the icon. It's not my design though so I don't get the credit. I got it from someone using the name Cas on a site that died around the time I found it or something because there was little posting.
Re: Killing angelsmimi_sardiniaApril 29 2012, 02:25:12 UTC
That's pretty much my thoughts on plotbunnies too. If I write one up that has a lot of detail, I don't really expect anyone to use everything I posted, but you never know when someone will find one detail out of the whole pile that inspires them.
I've seen a few fics along the line that have that angels have to channel some of their Grace through the blade for it to work. Implications there being that even if a normal human got their hands on one, it's about as useful as any other knife. I think some of those fics were ones where for some reason Dean is more than just an average human, and is, one way or another, gaining angelic attributes.
Re: Killing angelssilberstreifApril 29 2012, 09:19:40 UTC
Great to read your opinion. The more the better. ^^
Throwing in my two cents, too. ;)
I thought that the comment was about the angel blades, too when I first saw it... but then the question is, what is an angel's blade? The idea that it's the manifestation of an angel's will is good.
I really like the idea that Dean is gettin a few non-human attributes, because - let's face it - his body and soul is through so much that a few side effects would be expected.
Re: Killing angelsskylar_matthewsApril 29 2012, 17:29:14 UTC
Welcome to the conversation. (Believe me, even if you meant it to be one comment this discussion has a way of pulling you in.)
I admit that needing an extra element to use an angel blade does fit well enough into canon and gives the people who can use them a special status so to speak, but I still prefer to think that anyone can wield one. Also, just as another point in this discussion, Bobby brings out two or three of them at some point (late 6?) when they're heading off to stop/kill an angel. To me that implies that they can be used by anyone. (Although, because I don't recall the exact episode I might be remembering a fanfic instead and I can't even check 'cause my step brother has my DVDs to get into the series himself. Yay for new fans.)
Somewhere in there it's possible the Fallen found out about Earth directly from it, disliked the developing humans it found there and decided it made a good spot to spring his trap for the other Primes (the idea of a trap was comic canon).
Yeah you have to remember all the names the Cybertronians have come up with in English are basically translations. Maybe the original Cybertronian name for the Ark spaceship has just as much religious overtones as the word "Ark" does in English, so it was the best translation.
This whole idea opens up even more thoughts of how much Cybertron has been in contact with Earth, and how much of Cybertronian history has snuck into Earth myth, legend and religion. There's a lot of back and forth going on.
Maybe it is only fanon, but I always had an impression that the whole "Cain and Abel" thing meant the Winchesters were descended from Abel, and the Campbells from Cain. Both lines are powerful bloodlines, but the Apocalypse could only go ahead when the two were crossed, giving rise to brothers who mirror not only their ancestors, but Michael and Lucifer as well.
Mostly I am willing to accept that the "Only an angel can kill an angel" thing is a fallacy, but only as far as archangel True Vessels are concerned. Even a normal vesel like Jimmy Novak wouldn't be able to kill an angel, but Dean could because hey! Michael's Vessel! He has to be strong!
Yes dean, aliens are real, but they don't abduct people and give 'em anal probes (that's faeries), they're the sentient robotic products of the Ark of the Covenant.
Random thought: If surviving strange shit is part and parcel to being a Vessel, maybe the whole near-death experience in Egypt with the Matrix and meeting the Original Primes means Sam Witwicky is a potential Vessel? For who, I don't know, but I am willing to volunteer Gabe for the angel in question (there's something hilarious to my mind about that combination).
Also given the lingering fanon that that incident means Sam is a Prime, I also wonder if that means the Dynasty of Primes is actually a Cybertronian Vessel dynasty? It does fit with my thought on why only Primes could kill the Fallen, but does it mean someone could also possess Optimus? (I volunteer Vector Prime for that role, because if Optimus is going to be a Vessel, I want him a Vessel for a Cybertronian angel, and I like Vector Prime.)
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1) The very core of earth is metal too. So maybe Earth has its own allspark?
2) I always got the feeling that Cybertron is much older than earth.
Maybe it was the other way around? Primus built Cybertron, etc. and thought, well let's try it a second time and went to earth . and took a small part of the original allspark with him and made from it the core of earth.
The Fallen found out - yes, that would be a very good idea. He would not only trap the Primes, but show Primus himself what he thinks about him.
About the matter of the Ark translation, I completely agree. It's has different names in different languages. Maybe even on earth.
Cain und Abel is a nice idea for SPN. I always thought that the Campbell's are simply cursed - but maybe the descendants of Cain were cursed to hunt evil?
And there is no one stronger than Dean. I always thought that his father didn't break in hell was a myth. He broke - but he wasn't a righteous man. (No father that left his children so much alone can be righteous)
Sam Witwicky as a potential vessel - better than him being a Prime. Never understood those fans. Sam would so freak out :D "I'm a vessel for sam alien angel? Are you serious?!"
Gabe the messenger - could be that he knew of Cybertron?
Optimus Prime a vessel... I don't know. I always more thought of him as something along the line of a warrior Jesus. ...
... that's an idea. Prime's the vessel for Jesus himself. They're much more sturdier than humans, live longer and bigger. :D (you don't have to take this idea 100% serious ;) )
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Interestingly enough, the supposed "curse" that was put on Cain was no such thing. It was actually a protection, because after going and killing his brother, Cain would have likely had siblings up the wazzoo out to punish him for it, so God protected him, promising that anyone who hurt him would get punished... what was it, seven times seven?
So maybe Cain felt obligated to live up to that and became the first hunter ever, and his family has been hunters for millenia, until they crossed bloodline with Abel's line and Sam and Dean were faced with an Apocalypse.
I've seen a few good fics that put forward the idea that John knew why Hell wanted him to break, so he fought even harder not to. They learned not to warn Dean once they got him, so Dean didn't know there was going to be more consequences than just him starting to turn into a demon.
I also think there may be a case to argue that even if John counted as "righteous", maybe Hell needed Dean in particular because he was Michael's Vessel, and they needed a specific Righteous Man to break in Hell.
Besides, it's apparently a common refrain, demons lie, so Alistair was probably being rather selective about exactly what he was telling Dean. Enough truth to hurt, but not enough to give any hope.
Sam (Witwicky) would have a bigger freakout than both of the Winchesters combined did. Meanwhile, said brothers stand back and are all "Is this kid for real?!"
I like the idea that the angels know what else is out there.
I read a fic not long ago (a WIP, but it's close to being finished) that is an SPN/Doctor Who crossover where Cas gets River Song to act as his vessel after his old one got destroyed by the escaping Leviathans. It had a scene where he could talk to the Tardis because it's a Gallifreyan angel.
The point being, maybe other worlds have their own angels watching over them. Angels such as Cas only work on Earth, but the Archangels might be allowed to cross "departments" and talk to the angels of other worlds. So while he lives and tricks on Earth, Gabriel theoretically knows about Cybertron.
... Optimus Prime, vessel of Prima... who just happens to also be the same celestial entity as Jesus. XD
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"planetary surface got in the way": That sounds so absurd and logical - awesome. :D
Seven times seven sounds right. And so while Able's descendants got more and more, Cain's were a small family because they always died too fast protecting the rest of humanity.
I really go with the "demons lie". Alistair was too intelligent, too experienced not to choose the words that hurt Dean the most - whatever the truth may be.
And we have learned that breaking in hell doesn't mean you can't enter heaven. Dean did enter.
Oh yeah, the brothers would stand there and just kind of accept it, while Sam would totally freak :D I mean aliens is worse enough. But an intergalactic fight between aliens and angels?!
Oh, that DocWho/SPN ff you have to sent me. ;)
I can immagine Gabriel knowing what's out there. It would explain why he takes most thing a bit differently - and why Lucifer knew who the Fallen is and talked with him.
I can't see Castiel knowing. Poor angel boy was shocked by cell phones - meet aliens would probably freak him just as much as Sam. Oh and Zachariah :D His reaction would be extreme. "God didn't only create mud monkeys, but a whole other species, too? And that species is older than us?!" It would kind of kill his reason for thinking humans inferior ->younger, mortal, less powerful). Cybertronians -> older, can die but it's difficult, and able to travel through the galaxy by not even using a spacce ship.
Oh god, Optimus Prime vessel of Jesus, this is great and sooo crazy :D It would explain why always when Optimus dies he comes back sooner or later. ;)
Now we only need a story now to put all these ideas into. ^^
Icon: You're Icon is great. :D I can Megatron totally seeing doing that.
That would be something... War between Autobots/Decepticons? Forget it. Nowadays it's war between humans&angels/Cybertronians on the believe who the real and false god is.
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I find it a little ironic, the idea of Cain being the forefather of hunters. Some other fandom canons has Cain the forefather of vampires (well we know that SPN the fore-mother of vampires is Eve). I just feel it's a nice ironic role reversal.
After everything the Winchesters have seen, adding real aliens to their list is probably not that big a thing.
The Water.
On the other hand, maybe with his job as the so-called "Sheriff of Heaven" he found out a bit more about the other "departments" for other planets, or at least that while he was busy helping Sam and Dean prevent the Apocalypse, there were beings from one of those other planets on Earth.
I recall the date on the paper when Dean was September 2008 so the latter part of season 4 going into season 5 would be 2009, so some time while they were busy running around trying to stop the apocalypse the Autobots were trying to put a stop to the Fallen's Sun Harvester plot... and oh, that timing could also mean Lucifer and the Fallen could have merrily discussed their various plans.
That icon is actually Ironhide. It came from a fic (I have no idea where to find it though), where he got asked the question ("Do you accept Jesus as your lord and saviour?") and he came out with that reply ("NO. Do you accept Primus as yours?") during a conversation with human politicians.
Somehow I can totally see a running argument between an Autobot and a human over the religion thing while Cas is standing off to the side, puzzled and doing his typical head tilt (and Dean's already wandered off, swearing about stupid religious debates), and meanwhile Gabe (who is totally not dead for reasons I'll leave up to fic writers) starts laughing his head off and when everyone suddenly looks at him he makes some glib quip about how it's all the same guy.
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Probably not. I have to admit I don't like the idea with the Leviathans too much.
Thanks!
No saying what he had found out and what not... With heaven in chaos there was information leaked in all departments, as later proven by the weapons and Leviathans. Why not this information, too?
Let's say the archangels knew about Cybertonians and the Ark and all - and protected the Allspark by throwing a veil over it, so it was hidden by all supernatural and simply called it "another heavenly weapon".
And with the apocalypse the wrong kind of people started searching for the weapon, but didn't found it. Until that faithful day in mission city were Sam activates the allspark (and finally that would make sense, too - it reacted to a vessel).
Cue in: Suddenly not only are there aliens and humans fighting in mission city, no. Demons and angels join also - humans freak out and the Cybertronians do what is natural: If you're facing a foreign superior forces, they join their own forces (who knows that this foreign race does with the allspark!).
I love Lucifer and Fallen discussing everything. They would hate each other, but feel so similar, too...
That's a great dialogue and so true. :D Just because they're aliens doesn't mean they don't have a god.
Gabriel never died. ;) My favourite reason is, so far, that the real Loki saved him.
*laughs* Oh yeah, that takes religious discussion to a whole new level. Especially if other gods (of SPN) or religions (those terrorists in the movie?) join in, too.
Gab would laugh and laugh and laugh. This would be the greatest joke of all. And Crowley would just stand there and try to calculate the worth of a spark - more or less than a soul?
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The thing is, the whole first movie happens before the angels are officially walking the Earth again. Oh, I can see them adding an extra layer of protection on the Allspark, but I have this idea that it's already depleted in power so besides writing Enochian sigils into the structure of Hoover Dam while it was being constructed, they may have just left it alone and even when the Mision City incident happened, did not think it too much of a problem, believing the humans and Autobots could handle it (if things had gone Megatron's way they may have had to intervene).
But as I said, the events of RotF would fall practically right in the middle of the Apocalypse events.
On Lucifer and the Fallen, I'm not sure their goals would mesh at all. I still haven't watched "The End", but from what I know, Lucifer never actually wanted to destroy the Earth, he just wanted to get rid of humans. The Fallen's plans however would destroy the whole planet, and I really can't see Luci all that happy about that, so the conversation between those two might not end very nicely.
I could see Luci sending demons to try and get a hold of the Matrix, but if the events are running concurrent to each other, the Fallen might end up dead and Luci back in the Cage before any results on that front, and the Matrix is safely in Optimus's care.
It's only a year and a half later when everyone is hunting Heavenly weapons that it becomes an issue again.
It's probably obvious that I think the best crossover point is 6th season SPN.
Aside from the question of whether the Christian God is more valid than Primus, there's the piles of issues about pagan gods actually existing as well. True, it seems they aren't nearly as high-ranked as even the angels and the Christian God is at the top of the heap, but just in the circumstance of a religious debate it'd be hilarious, especially if it's Gabe venturing that information (as well as his own role as a pagan god, on top of his archangel status).
I always thought sparks were basically souls anyway, just maybe a slightly different format to human ones, since they're meant to go into robotic bodies. That would mean they have practically the same value, though if different planets have different sections of Heaven, then maybe Hell is also compartmentalised by planet as well. The Cybertronian Pit may be somewhere Crowley does not have command, and has it's own demons.
I am however at a loss as to define exactly where Unicron fits into this set-up, unless, for this crossover at least, "Unicron" just happens to be the name applied to Lucifer in Cybertronian religious texts.
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I don't like the Leviathans. For me the story ended with the end of season 5. <.<
You know it would be great if the whole Hover Dam was full of sigils and kind of glowing.
I see. But in SPN and Transformers the timeline can be moved a bit, it doesn't have to be fixed. That said, RotF at the same time as season 5... nice. :) It would twist everything.
*laugh* Can you imagine it? Lucifer trying to destroy the Fallen and Castiel and the Winchester standing there: "So, the devil is trying to save the earth from the devil of an alien race... right?" "Looks like it." "Now I've seen everything."
That would really be a crazy alliance. Prime working together with the devil? I have to laugh at the idea alone!
I think season 5 has its own lovely possibilities, too. But we can stretch the whole thing across three seasons. 4 to 6. I mean we have three movies...
Oh yes, I wonder what the pagan gods would say to another all powerful entity - of an alien planet no less! I always thought that the pagan gods were once much more powerful than the angels, but with no believers they just diminished...
Hilarious is the right word. Can you imagine then all looking to Gabriel as the only one who can even begin to compare the gods and Gods?
Oh, that's a nice idea. Instead of conquering purgatory, why not another hell? It's own demons... mmh, do you know Shattered Glass? What if it is no alternate universe, but hell - and the "nice" Decepticons are in reality the captured sparks?
If we have the Fallen as a Lucifer equivalent Unicron is really a bit... redundant.
Unicron could be simply another god of another planet. If humans have pagan gods, why not Transformers, too?
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I always took "only an angel can kill an angel" as referring to the fact that only another angel has an angel killing blade. We were introduced to that concept shortly after the quote (same episode even) and Dean used the blade Cas dropped to stab Zachariah after all.
My apologies for the interruption. I'll just slip back into lurkerville now.
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Of course, the whole point is that it's up to whoever adopts the bunny which details we've debated here they include.
P.S. Great icon.
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(Whose to say just anyone can wield an angel blade anyway? I read a fic where Dean died to help Cas out with some issue up in Heaven and when he nearly stabbed Balthazar with Cas's blade all the other angel could do was ask how he could even touch the thing. (Because in Heaven it was a manifestation of an angel's will or something.) Just more thoughts on the matter....)
Thanks too, about the icon. It's not my design though so I don't get the credit. I got it from someone using the name Cas on a site that died around the time I found it or something because there was little posting.
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I've seen a few fics along the line that have that angels have to channel some of their Grace through the blade for it to work. Implications there being that even if a normal human got their hands on one, it's about as useful as any other knife. I think some of those fics were ones where for some reason Dean is more than just an average human, and is, one way or another, gaining angelic attributes.
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Throwing in my two cents, too. ;)
I thought that the comment was about the angel blades, too when I first saw it... but then the question is, what is an angel's blade? The idea that it's the manifestation of an angel's will is good.
I really like the idea that Dean is gettin a few non-human attributes, because - let's face it - his body and soul is through so much that a few side effects would be expected.
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I admit that needing an extra element to use an angel blade does fit well enough into canon and gives the people who can use them a special status so to speak, but I still prefer to think that anyone can wield one. Also, just as another point in this discussion, Bobby brings out two or three of them at some point (late 6?) when they're heading off to stop/kill an angel. To me that implies that they can be used by anyone. (Although, because I don't recall the exact episode I might be remembering a fanfic instead and I can't even check 'cause my step brother has my DVDs to get into the series himself. Yay for new fans.)
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