Harry’s Unpopularity: A Conspiracy Theory

Feb 16, 2011 14:20


I’m as much alone
as a schoolgirl crazy about geometry

Forūgh Farrokhzād, “I Feel Sorry for the Garden”
“While the magical container is still intact, the bit of soul inside it can flit in and out of someone if they get too close to the object. I don’t mean holding it for too long…. I mean close emotionally…. You’re in trouble if you get too ( Read more... )

harry potter meta, dumbledore

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Testing the Harrycrux terri_testing February 21 2011, 04:48:48 UTC
See my blanket reply, below; obviously this theory didn't quite fly.

To you specifically:

Ooh, I like your scenario. The supposedly kindly mentor ensuring that the child left in his care be only MILDLY abused and isolated, just enough to make him appreciate the WW, but not enough to make him unmanageable.... With a Dumbledore self-assured that the soul-fragment in Harry couldn't flit about, so he needn't attempt a stronger binding on it, or worry about its impact on others.

As pure fiction, that is lovely. I may borrow it. And I'll credit you if I do.

A delicate Dumbledore, appreciative of nuance, doing only the minimum damage that he feels he must to implement his Greater Good....

Yet here I am, intruding. Quoting Marge Piercy at you, "The Homely Wars":

"I lack a light touch.
I step on my own words,
a garden rake in the weeds.
I sweat and heave when I should slip away,
I am earnest into sermons when I should shrug,
I ram on."

I'm making something more of canon than Jo allows. Stepping on the rake and hitting myself in the forehead, no doubt.

I come back to factoids. The "facts" of this particular fictional universe.

That the Harrycrux (if understood as such, as Dumbledore did) must never be loved, or Riddle might be let loose to possess the lover.

It is "fact" in this Verse that anyone "fond" or "emotionally dependent on" a Horcrux (and why the hell would normal people react that way to supposedly inanimate objects?) are susceptible to possession by the Horcrux's soul.

Twinkles had Harry available for testing for that one lost day of canon. During that time, he managed to test, to his absolute satisfaction, that the soul-fragment in the Harrycrux, in absolute contradistinction to every other Horcrux ever made in history, could not "flit out" and possess others? When non-Horcruxified Tom Riddle had had that power?

A lot of your objection seems to be aesthetic--that the story, and Harry, work better, if we let Harry's unpopularity be squarely earned.

Without, as you say, positing conspiracy theories.

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Re: Testing the Harrycrux lynn_waterfall February 21 2011, 04:58:31 UTC
Twinkles had Harry available for testing for that one lost day of canon. During that time, he managed to test, to his absolute satisfaction, that the soul-fragment in the Harrycrux, in absolute contradistinction to every other Horcrux ever made in history, could not "flit out" and possess others? When non-Horcruxified Tom Riddle had had that power?

Sure, why not. Dose a lab rat with the appropriate affection-guaranteeing potion or spell, cast Petrificus Totalus on it, put it next to the baby. Observe. Use Legilimency.

24 hours sounds like enough to me, particularly if you don't particularly care about the people you're putting the baby with... and have someone to keep an eye on the place, or will shortly.

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Re: Testing the Harrycrux terri_testing February 25 2011, 05:49:15 UTC
I like this!

Problem is, I see this testing as more characteristic of SEVERUS, when he's forced to find out that Harry is a Horcrux.

I can see Severus methodically (inwardly flinching in horror) setting out to test which (if any, or all) characteristics of a Horcrux the Harrycrux manifests.... (And if I write Severus doing this in chapter 18, I'll credit you, you betcha, lynn!)

Although it's canon that Albus is a published researcher in the WW (the 12 uses of Dragon blood, etc.), I just can't quite see Albus as plodding methodically through all the steps of verifying a hypothesis and eliminating other possibilities. His m.o. is more being the dotty, inspired one. Aka Xeno....

If the WW has attained the standard of rigor of the Muggle world 150 years ago, he should be submitting his ideas to testing, but... I'm moderately acquainted with nineteenth, twentieth, and twenty-first standards of proof in both maths and experimental science, and Albus' claims (as published by JRR) meet none of them.

Coming up with a wild flight of hypothetical fancy, yes, and palming the proof off on the WW's equivalent of a grad student....

To translate this to our immediate concern:

I should have thought that most of the lost twenty-four hours were spent experimenting with different spells which Albus had hoped might have removed Tom's soul-fragment from the baby....

I plan to give Severus at least several months at that endeavor, before he gives up in despair. Of course, on the one hand Albus is vainer than he(so Albus would give up sooner: if I haven't spotted the loophole within an hour, there must not be one...); on the other, Severus truly cares about saving Harry, which Albus never did.

So the unconscious baby dumped in Albus's lap is a partial Horcrux. Why would Albus care to expend his valuable brains on solving that puzzle beyond the most obvious?

(Um--is my dislike of Albus showing just a bit?)

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Re: Testing the Harrycrux lynn_waterfall February 25 2011, 09:50:35 UTC
Glad you like it. :)

My idea didn't seem like such a hard thing to think of... but then I realized that I'm from a culture where lab animals are a fact of (some branches of) science. The WW might not be, even though they certainly feel free to use animals not only as potions ingredients, but as the subject of transfigurations and so on. Still, the animals used in classes... it's as though they just "happen" to be alive, or something. The animals are never expected to *do* anything; they're just a different class of objects. Creepy, really.

But that could well mean that the WW isn't very used to thinking of animals as capable of testing magic. Potions, maybe, like Trevor... but even that particular case is still like animals being the subjects of transfiguration. It isn't like testing variants of, say, a Wit-Sharpening Potion, by giving it to a rat and seeing if it learns a maze faster depending on the potion's formulation.

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Re: Testing the Harrycrux terri_testing February 25 2011, 15:01:32 UTC
Another problem--"we" know (in 2011) that Voldie was willing and able to possess rats--would DD expect that in 1981, or Severus in 1991? And "we" also know that he did so when nothing better was available--it was better than being vapor but worse than having a human body. So would the soul-fragment be attracted by an infatuated rat, and in such a short period?

Animal testing might not work when souls are involved, PETA's probable objections aside (you want to do WHAT?).

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Re: Testing the Harrycrux oryx_leucoryx February 25 2011, 16:37:12 UTC
Well, what about snakes? Severus can produce them with Serpensortia and vanish them if they get out of hand.

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Re: Testing the Harrycrux annoni_no February 21 2011, 07:57:54 UTC
I'd be flattered if you did use my bit of fanon! ^__^

As for the rest... well, setting aesthetics aside for the moment (though when crafting any work of art I don't think they can be disregarded entirely) let's try and see what other options canon gives us?

Are we, at any time, given evidence that a Horcrux had previously been created out of a living creature? Just on the face of it it seems like an incredibly stupid thing to do. One of the fundamental properties of life is that it dies. Except maybe cancers. (Which thought will now likely be in my nightmares...) At any rate, one aspect of Horcruxifing Nagini, instead of another Founder's artifact, that might have mollified Voldemort could have been the thought that he was once again breaking previous boundaries of magic that no one else had touched.

The question of how to make Nagini immortal might of been one that he felt he had time to consider later (he did have 5 other Horcruxes as far as he knew). Or he might have already decided what to do with her and was still working on the method, or he had few qualms about using a small subset of his Horcruxes as tools (if we believe Albus about the diary) and found Nagini too useful to hide away just yet.

(Personally, my theory is that he intended to transfigure her eventually into some form that could hold the usual array of enchantments that protect a Horcrux. He hadn't yet for one of the reasons above- he needed to make the transfiguration "safe" for the Horcrux, or Nagini was still too useful to him. He didn't immediately whisk her away from Hogwarts when he realized his other Horcruxes were in danger because he thought 1) he could protect her with that sphere, and 2)he didn't want to call any unnecessary attention to her. This last works particularly well if it *was* unheard of to use living creatures - he wouldn't want anyone wondering if she was anything more than a prized familiar.

I also think said transfiguration is what he would to *Harry* if he got wind he was Horcrux, rather than killing him outright...)

Dumbledore at some point does remark on how unwise it is to entrust your soul to another living being. He might have been referencing the situation with Harry specifically rather than some historical event.

There's also that fact that Horcruxes are considered to be so unnatural, at least in part, because they *are* a living soul forced into an inanimate object. The soul naturally wants to remain with the living body or else cross over to the other side of the Veil. Maybe for a Horcrux contained in a living body that effect would be lessened, and it would be less inclined to try and possess another being when it was already effectively "possessing" the one containing them in some ways.

The fact that the Horcrux was never truly completed might also have some bearing in how willing it was to leave Harry's body.

There's also the question of what effect Lily's protection had at on the soul.

There are probably some other factors I've missed that would be relevant here, but what it seems to come down to is that canon gives us enough information to doubt that the normal effects and limitations known of Horcruxes apply to the Harry!crux, but not enough to say which *are* in effect.

From my perspective then, it's easy to see Albus being convinced after some initial tests that the plethora of unusual circumstances surrounding the creation and nature of this Horcrux imbued it with unique properties, or somehow neutered its threat. It's not even important that Albus be *right* about his conclusions, just that Albus be *convinced* he's right.

Lynn has a good suggestion for what type of tests he might have run.

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Theories on Horcruxes terri_testing February 25 2011, 15:22:41 UTC
Like the way your mind works.

Cancers, shudder, yes.

Interesting thought on Tom's motives in Horcruxifying Nagini--and interesting theory about her (and Harry's, had he known) fate--I'd tended to assume as much myself regarding Harry, but I hadn't extended the thought to Nagini.

Although--there's a possible catch with Nagini. There are magical animals that are effectively "immortal"--that is, they don't die unless they are killed (phoenixes for sure, probably the basilisk--it sure wasn't showing signs of age). If Nagini were a magical snake with no expected mortal lifespan, protecting her from harm might be all that was needed.

You make good points about why the Harrycrux might behave differently--I think the argument that "feels" best to me is the living soul/inanimate object vs. soul in living body one.

That still leaves open how Dumbles could be so sure, after 24 hours with Harry, that it was safe to expose others to him....

But-very good point that it's not necessary that Albus BE right if he's "convinced" he's right. And further, he can "be" correct without what I'd consider adequate reasons to support him.

I mean, Bellatrix was right about Severus being disloyal to the Dark Lord, wasn't she now?

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Aesthetics annoni_no February 21 2011, 08:47:23 UTC
I think my concerns about the aesthetics hinge on what sort of story you're trying to tell. This was one of Rowling's biggest problems: she couldn't figure out what her story *was* exactly. Thus we veer wildly from slapstick comedy to drama to soap opera, and plot lines that work well in one genre clash horribly with the expectations of the others, leading to the schizophrenic mess of plot, characterization, and morality we see by the time DH has concluded.

My critique was based on the assumption that you are essentially retelling HP as an AU Drama, discarding the cartoon/soap aspects for a more cohesive whole. In which case, Voldemort would still be the main Villain, with Sev recast as the Hero, and Dumbledore revealed as a Well-Intentioned Extremist much earlier in the series.

What concerned me about your conspiracy theory is that it moves DD pretty thoroughly from the Well-Intentioned Extremist role to Villain, leaving Voldemort as likely no more than a bit player (not that he wasn't in the books, but...)

If that's the story you want to tell, with DD as primary antagonist instead of Voldemort, I think it can be done well, but you need to look at how the story is being structured and what the implications of these shifts are. All good stories have conflict at their heart, and the more a writer can draw out that inherent tension, and make their characters truly *fight* to get their victory, the better the story.

Which actually touches on something else I've been concerned about but that hasn't seemed serious enough to warrant a comment yet.

Sev feels like he's progressing too fast, too easily.

True, he's mostly been picking softer targets for espionage efforts (the muggle woman, Trelawny, Slughorn) but he's been taking out the Horcruxes in short order, with relatively little difficulty dealing with Riddle's defenses. Also true, everything has progressed perfectly logically, which is I why didn't feel I should comment before. I'm still hoping to *see* things become much more difficult for Sev as the story picks up pace, though.

If you're going to downplay Sev's difficulties dealing with Riddle's magic (which should be at least present, at least with the younger, saner Riddle's work) then I think Sev's difficulties balancing (and carrying out) his espionage with his other duties should be played up a bit more than they have been so far.

You do seem to have been hinting at this though with the aftermath of Harry's sorting and Dumbledore's rising suspicions, so I've got my fingers crossed for some serious mind games in the near future =D

Bringing it back to Harry's unpopularity for the moment: whatever you decide to do, I feel like Harry's difficulties should at least be assumed to stem from his own behavior, and treated as such, until strong evidence is provided to the contrary. It adds more conflict to the story, and it's interesting to have a lead character with such a serious flaw, *acknowledged* as a flaw. (In other words: Marty Stus are boring.)

I hope this has clarified where I'm coming from a bit, but I would like to add that your story has been beautifully crafted so far - I'm just trying to consider it from the view of the complete story arc, since the individual interactions seem well in hand.

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Re: Aesthetics danajsparks February 21 2011, 15:39:31 UTC
Thus we veer wildly from slapstick comedy to drama to soap opera, and plot lines that work well in one genre clash horribly with the expectations of the others, leading to the schizophrenic mess of plot, characterization, and morality we see by the time DH has concluded.

This might be the best summary of what's wrong with the books that I've seen so far. Behaviors that make the characters seem hilarious in a cartoon or comedy make them seem completely psychopathic in a drama or tragedy.

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Re: Aesthetics oryx_leucoryx February 21 2011, 18:03:44 UTC
Sev feels like he's progressing too fast, too easily.

I think he will hit a brick wall soon - in part because at least 2 Horcruces are out of his reach for now (IMO he'll find the diary in the middle of Y2 unless Lucius chooses a very different way of dealing with Arthur's impending raids and the cup later than that) but his biggest obstacle is going to be the Harrycrux. I think this one should take him years to solve because it is a very unique situation magically. If he manages it before Bertha Jorkins goes to visit relatives in Albania the story will be over then. If not, then I have all sorts of ideas for AU Y4.

The magic itself is canon - If Amycus Carrow can teach Vincent a spell powerful enough to destroy a Horcrux Severus would know it too, and would have better control of it. (Apparently the book the Blacks owned did not list the ways to destroy a Horcrux - Regulus didn't seem to have an idea.)

One thing that makes this story different from most 'Severus adopts Harry' stories is that Severus is working *against* Albus' wishes and has to hide his actions - both in relation to Harry himself and on the Horcrux front - from him. This too should give him interesting obstacles.

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Re: Aesthetics annoni_no February 21 2011, 18:26:30 UTC
*sigh* I know that bloody deus ex machina Fiendfyre is canon - that's why didn't feel that I had any grounds on which to raise objections. I honestly blame Jo far more than Terri for that, it would be a much bigger hole if Sev *didn't* use it than to say that he did. (Though I think if it were my story I would have said that it was an "heirloom" spell developed by the Carrows back when they were still competent. The incantation was then kept a carefully guarded secret by the family's scions, and known to the rest of the world only as a spell of unparalleled ferocity and destruction. At least until the latest generation of idiots felt they *needed* something to show off with - hence the teaching of such a ridiculously powerful spell to schoolchildren. Just make Sev work for it is all I'm saying.)

I do trust that things will start getting harder from here out, but there have been enough occasions where I expected more of a climax and was let down (though always with such perfect logic it was hard to argue how the scene could go otherwise) that I felt like dropping a comment.

As for AU ideas... oh yeah, those are always fun to hash out. ~__^

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Re: Aesthetics oryx_leucoryx February 21 2011, 18:44:15 UTC
Though I think if it were my story I would have said that it was an "heirloom" spell developed by the Carrows back when they were still competent. The incantation was then kept a carefully guarded secret by the family's scions, and known to the rest of the world only as a spell of unparalleled ferocity and destruction.

Doesn't Hermione recognize the spell? It must have been mentioned in one of the three books she stole.

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Re: Aesthetics annoni_no February 21 2011, 19:34:26 UTC
She could have recognized it from the effects. She also mentions that she would never have dared to use it, but I don't think that necessarily means the incantation was available to her - just that she knew enough of the properties of the spell that she considered it too risky to use under any circumstances.

Although if it's known to be capable of destroying Horcruxes one wonders why Voldie let it be taught in any form. I really, *really* like the idea that the Carrows were trying to show off and intimidate the students by teaching that spell to their most loyal enforcers, without any thought to the wider ramifications, or even whether their boss would approve (we don't when Crabbe learned that spell, right? It could have been shortly before the battle, so Voldie wouldn't have had a chance to learn what the ickle-students were learning behind his back).

Of course now someone is going to pull up a piece of canon that I've managed to overlook and blow this theory completely out of the water....

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Re: Aesthetics oryx_leucoryx February 24 2011, 01:19:36 UTC
Although if it's known to be capable of destroying Horcruxes one wonders why Voldie let it be taught in any form.

Apparently Voldie didn't think even Twinkles would figure out his Horcrux locations until he received direct evidence that one of them was breached.

I don't think the Carrows knew the spell could destroy a Horcrux because I don't think the Carrows knew what a Horcrux was. The knowledge has been suppressed for a while by both Twinkles and Voldie. Nowadays only members of old families whose heads were not DEs have any chance to find the information in their family's private collection. (I bet the book Regulus read was confiscated by Dumbles when the Order started using 12GP.)

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Re: Aesthetics annoni_no February 24 2011, 05:12:18 UTC
-"I don't think the Carrows knew the spell could destroy a Horcrux because I don't think the Carrows knew what a Horcrux was. The knowledge has been suppressed for a while by both Twinkles and Voldie. "

But even if they weren't aware that it was capable of destroying a Horcrux, wouldn't it be more in keeping with V.'s prior hording of information to try and suppress any magic that might be a threat to his source of immortality?

True, he thought that his hiding places were impenetrable, but his hoovering up any information related to Horcruxes seems to indicate a particular paranoia where they're concerned. Also, we only see this (rather surprisingly) blase attitude after he's lost a few mental screws over the years. (Young!Tom was competent. He was too fond of Byzantine schemes by half even then but he still had the skill to pull them off. Why couldn't we keep Young!Tom?)

(Of course, now I'm developing a whole back story in my head about how the Carrows were once revered as pillars of justice and moral rectitude. They were *the* defenders of the WW, particularly for their aptitude in fighting truly dangerous, evil wizards, with Fiendfyre as their signature spell. At some point this probably included taking out a Horcrux user or two, which is the reference Hermione found.

Over the years however they got caught up in the Blood Purity trap, leaving Amycus and Alecto as the pitiful dregs of a once great family line. The siblings were painfully aware of their inadequacy compared to their illustrious ancestors, and the only thing they had left of value was the incantation to their family's signature spell, which had remained un-duplicated over the years partially because everyone assumed it was much more complex than it really was. (Which is part of the spell's danger, being able to call up so much power with so little effort.) Voldemort actually only allowed such incompetent morons to join to gain easier access to that particular spell and whatever else remained of value in the family library. That, and it never hurts to have a little spare cannon fodder around.)

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