The Corruption of the House System

Nov 04, 2009 18:05

A funny thing happened on the way to Harry’s sorting. The reputations of the houses got terminally messed with, and even those of us who eventually prided ourselves on objecting to the distortion never fingered either the culprit or the timing of the crime.

That a )

harry potter meta, dumbledore, house system, slytherin, hogwarts

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oryx_leucoryx November 5 2009, 07:03:16 UTC
It is possible that there was a two stage process: confuse the issue of Dumbledore's House to appear neutral at first, and at a later point apply magic to completely stamp out the information and spread rumors about him possibly being a Gryffindor.

On the other hand, he became Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot, Supreme Mugwump of the International Confederation of Wizards, and the general of a vigilante army, not to mention the political power of being headmaster. (The fact that he didn't *also* become Minister is nothing; as you pointed out, being part of the Ministry would constrain him.)

The problem is we do not know how much power the titles of Chief Warlock and supreme mugwump conferred upon him. While the wizengamot appoints (and possibly fires) the Minister, we see Fudge acting with little hindrance until it became perceived that he messed up big time. And I doubt Dumbledore acknowledged to himself how much power there was in the position of headmaster. So I can see him believing that by refusing to become Minister (from before 1945, long before he started thinking of himself as the leader of the anti-Tom effort) he was avoiding ambition for power.

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lynn_waterfall November 5 2009, 08:29:51 UTC
True. Although, tongue only slightly in cheek, can we be sure how much power the Minister has? What can and can't the Minister do?

More importantly, though, Dumbledore has a lot of political influence, even though we don't know how much power a Chief Warlock and/or supreme mugwump have. I would think that that would require some active cultivation on Dumbledore's part.

Just being headmaster wouldn't do it, surely. Maybe defeating Grindelwald would be enough even without cultivating his political influence, but I dunno. The WW has a strong case of "what have you done for us lately" -- look at Harry's position in OotP, particularly compared to the beginning of PoA. The WW is already on the next Dark Lord; it isn't going to be enough that Dumbledore settled the last one half a century ago.

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Power vs. perception terri_testing November 5 2009, 14:56:34 UTC
Actually, one of Swythyv's points is that it didn't matter how much power Dumbledore did or didn't have.

IN HIS OWN MIND, repeatedly declining the position of Minister of Magic proved that he'd learned his lesson that "I was not to be trusted with power." He told Harry so. "Power was my weakness and my temptation.... I was safer at Hogwarts."

Collecting every other high office floating around, whatever their actual duties, powers, and responsibilites, and expecting the actual Minister to do what one says, doesn't actually sound to me like someone who's renounced power. It sounds like someone who's in denial about renouncing power!

See, I turned down the post of Minister--aren't I humble? I've learned I'm not to be trusted; I'm not ambitious, no sir. Now, Fudge, this is what you do first--

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Re: Power vs. perception oryx_leucoryx November 5 2009, 20:41:42 UTC
See, I turned down the post of Minister--aren't I humble? I've learned I'm not to be trusted; I'm not ambitious, no sir. Now, Fudge, this is what you do first--

Definitely. It is more common to have delusions of power, but Dumbledore has delusions of humility.

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Re: Power vs. perception lynn_waterfall November 5 2009, 21:38:36 UTC
IN HIS OWN MIND, repeatedly declining the position of Minister of Magic proved that he'd learned his lesson that "I was not to be trusted with power." He told Harry so.

Maybe. Although I will point out that that's either 1) what he told Harry, not necessarily what he believed, or 2) what Harry hallucinated that he told him. Either way, I'm not counting on it being accurate.

Swythyv's theory works, but...

Thought experiment: can we make Swythyv's argument, but replace ambition with Ravenclaw values, and still make it work?

Rather than being convinced that his ambition for power led him astray with Grindelwald, Dumbledore would believe that it was his ignoring messy reality for his fascination with ideas. Curiosity about the Hallows, too.

I was gifted, I was brilliant.
Grindelwald. You cannot imagine how his ideas caught me, Harry,
And at the heart of our schemes, the Deathly Hallows! How they fascinated him, how they fascinated both of us!
Two months of insanity, of cruel dreams,
And then... you know what happened. Reality returned in the form of my rough, unlettered, and infinitely more admirable brother.

Subsequently, Dumbledore obscured which house he had belonged to, so that none of his (many) academic achievements could be used to glorify that house. He became a researcher, but he devoted a lot of his time to politics and to (in his mind) making the world a better place. He created a school environment that doesn't encourage intellectual curiosity: Hermione is apparently considered the best student in her year, and she mostly takes in facts and reproduces results. He encourages unquestioning faith (in himself) over reason: his followers obey him without questioning, without even asking for much background knowledge.

I don't think that this explanation works very well, but I don't think it works that much worse than the original. YMMV. But the way I see it, IF he was a Slytherin, then he might have reacted the way Swythyv suggested. But IF he was a Ravenclaw, then he might have reacted in the above way to the situation. The fact that he was in the situation to begin with doesn't require him to be in *either* house.

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Re: Power vs. perception terri_testing November 6 2009, 06:46:13 UTC
My own solution to the problem was that the Hat wanted to put Albus in Ravenclaw, but Albus requested Slytherin and the hat consented. It was a reasonable fit, after all.

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Re: Power vs. perception terri_testing November 6 2009, 06:47:24 UTC
Er, I didn't mention: your explanation is certainly worthy of the house to which you assign Albus in this scenario.

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Re: Power vs. perception oryx_leucoryx November 24 2009, 21:59:28 UTC
You know, Lynn, if you are right then the big surprise is that Dumbledore let the quizzing method for entering the Ravenclaw common room remain in place and not have it replaced with a password system like the other Houses.

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Re: Power vs. perception lynn_waterfall November 26 2009, 08:21:19 UTC
On the theory that quizzing students like that would encourage their intellectual development?

Presumably, in canon it works just as well as a password system, although we don't hear any details.

In practice, though, I'd expect it to lead to a lot of students stuck outside the dorm, particularly first and second years. Stuck there uselessly, wasting time, until someone else comes along with the answer.

Sure, the Ravenclaw(s) in question could go research the question in the library. Or they could just go do something else, assuming that they didn't *need* to get in just then, because it was curfew, or because they forgot a textbook.

I don't really think that it would *help* the Ravenclaw students enough to make up for the drawbacks.

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oryx_leucoryx November 5 2009, 20:39:49 UTC
The Minister has the power to arrest Hagrid on suspicion unbacked by evidence, to appoint a teacher when none are available and to sign educational decrees that change the way Hogwarts is run. And to send Aurors to follow Dumbledore around, to authorize the dementor's kiss. Just examples we see.

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