On chip races
andybloch posted a comment in my post of a few days ago, where I complained about the colour-up/chip race procedure during the Johnny Chan tournament at the River Rock casino here in Vancouver. Readers will recall I was annoyed that they waited until everyone came back from break before running the chip race, resulting in a long 20-minute delay. Andy responds as follows:
They actually did that part right. Doing color-ups and races during breaks may be exactly what caused the 2 million dollar error at the WSOP last year. Doing them at the start of a break is almost the same thing, since most people are going to want to hurry off on the break. (I've complained about it countless times, but most of the less experienced TDs don't realize the likelihood of errors.) Even if you trust the honesty of the tournament staff, it's easy for mistakes to be made. Years ago Jack McClelland had a rule that at least two people had to be back at the table before a chip race could be done.
The only people coloring up chips should be the dealer. Floor people should not be doing color ups, and if they do handle chips at all it should only be through the dealer, with the chips being signed in and out or with lammers, like they would at any cash table in the casino.
Preferably, once the low denomination chips start to pile up, each dealer should be given a fixed amount of color-up chips and an empty rack or two, and they should color up the antes a little at a time. When they fill up a rack or two, they can exchange it with the floor or a chip runner for a new stack of chips and empty racks. This way, you can't make a big mistake, and no real time is wasted. A dealer could try to cheat a little at a time, but it's difficult if the dealer colors up only at the start of the hand because he won't know who is going to win the pot.
(Btw, I'm very amused that I get to use to quote Bloch.)
I think Andy makes an interesting point here. Would the 2M chip error have been made last year if the chip race was done after a break? Personally, I think it's quite probable. I'm pretty amazed in any case that both the dealer and the responsible floorman managed to make that mistake. I also think players tend to trust dealers and floorpeople to do correct math a little too often. How often do you see a big all-in (especially multiway) where the guy who loses the pot is just told by the dealer how much he owes, and he doesn't even bother verify it himself? Probably anywhere from 40-70% of the time. I don't realistically expect players to care about what happens to stacks other than their own, even if they should.
I do agree -- at least in principle -- with the idea that only the dealer should handle (physically) the colour-up. I think after one player has bought up and racked his chips, the dealer should count off the racks+stacks and the floor should verify it. The problem is, who handles the big denomination chips? I probably trust them in the hands of the floor more than the dealers (more accountability).
Any other thoughts on this issue?
They actually did that part right. Doing color-ups and races during breaks may be exactly what caused the 2 million dollar error at the WSOP last year. Doing them at the start of a break is almost the same thing, since most people are going to want to hurry off on the break. (I've complained about it countless times, but most of the less experienced TDs don't realize the likelihood of errors.) Even if you trust the honesty of the tournament staff, it's easy for mistakes to be made. Years ago Jack McClelland had a rule that at least two people had to be back at the table before a chip race could be done.
The only people coloring up chips should be the dealer. Floor people should not be doing color ups, and if they do handle chips at all it should only be through the dealer, with the chips being signed in and out or with lammers, like they would at any cash table in the casino.
Preferably, once the low denomination chips start to pile up, each dealer should be given a fixed amount of color-up chips and an empty rack or two, and they should color up the antes a little at a time. When they fill up a rack or two, they can exchange it with the floor or a chip runner for a new stack of chips and empty racks. This way, you can't make a big mistake, and no real time is wasted. A dealer could try to cheat a little at a time, but it's difficult if the dealer colors up only at the start of the hand because he won't know who is going to win the pot.
(Btw, I'm very amused that I get to use to quote Bloch.)
I think Andy makes an interesting point here. Would the 2M chip error have been made last year if the chip race was done after a break? Personally, I think it's quite probable. I'm pretty amazed in any case that both the dealer and the responsible floorman managed to make that mistake. I also think players tend to trust dealers and floorpeople to do correct math a little too often. How often do you see a big all-in (especially multiway) where the guy who loses the pot is just told by the dealer how much he owes, and he doesn't even bother verify it himself? Probably anywhere from 40-70% of the time. I don't realistically expect players to care about what happens to stacks other than their own, even if they should.
I do agree -- at least in principle -- with the idea that only the dealer should handle (physically) the colour-up. I think after one player has bought up and racked his chips, the dealer should count off the racks+stacks and the floor should verify it. The problem is, who handles the big denomination chips? I probably trust them in the hands of the floor more than the dealers (more accountability).
Any other thoughts on this issue?