Comments on my previous post

[telyni]

This started out as a response to what darekana wrote in a comment on my previous post, but it was getting really long for a comment, so I decided to just post it as a separate entry.

Comments

I tried to keep this short, but...

[aerorei]

Well, I don't think that being limited in our capacity to understand a situation is the same as being limited in our capacity to understand God's ways of doing things in that situation, but I may be trying to make too fine a distinction. Regardless, aside from the fact that the quote's not in the Bible, I only opposed it because the idea of a higher power mysteriously causing living things to appear through a drawn-out and illogical process like evolution is contrary to what I believe, but that's just my opinion. I guess if you like the idea of a higher power that's just "playing around" with creating to see what he can get when he puts proteins together, it works, but that'd be an awfully poor god to put your faith in. Why settle for a substandard god? I like this verse: "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well." (Psalms 139:14)

So if I properly understand you, you're implying that another way that evolution could have occurred besides natural selection is a higher power guiding the process. Which I already said doesn't make sense to me, but ok. I'm perfectly happy labeling my evidence as opposing natural selection if that's what it does, but I've also read things (not just the Bible, but scientific studies) that oppose the idea that living things evolved at all. Let me get back to you on the evidence though. I have my article presentation tomorrow that I need to finish preparing tonight, but definitely tomorrow night or by the weekend I'll give you some specific examples, and I'll look at your article too and review my "irreducibly complex" example.

Re: I tried to keep this short, but...

[darekana]

> I guess if you like the idea of a higher power that's just "playing
> around" with creating to see what he can get

Well, that's assuming that God's just "playing around", but on what grounds do you base that assumption? Moreover, why would an evolutionary course be "substandard"? Personally, I'd consider a God who created the universe and everything in it through internally consistent methods (essentially with nothing more than some basic axioms and a nudge in the right direction) as more amazing than one that just "poofed" everything into existence. But that's just a matter of opinion, I suppose.

I think the real crux of our disagreement lies in your first statement:
> Well, I don't think that being limited in our capacity to understand a
> situation is the same as being limited in our capacity to understand God's
> ways of doing things in that situation

I believe that, fundamentally, we can claim to know very little about God. We can infer some basic things judging from the universe (e.g. God likes variety; God doesn't like waste; and God generally likes order, but some chaos and randomness is OK now and again - see Quantum Physics ^_^), but to try to "guess" at God's plans or designs is simply a waste of time. If you're curious, I could go on but I'll refrain from boring everyone right now ^_^. Anyway, I suppose this is a fairly non-Christian take on matters (it really doesn't allow for things like the Bible...), and thus our disagreement. But at least I understand where you're coming from now, and hopefully vice-versa.

> Let me get back to you on the evidence though

That's cool, I'm just curious now. I've never really looked at evolutionary studies from either side of the argument much, so it ought to be interesting.

Re: I tried to keep this short, but...

[aerorei]

"I believe that, fundamentally, we can claim to know very little about God."
Yeah, that's a big point we disagree on too, since as you said, your view doesn't allow for things like the Bible. From my point of view, we really can claim to know quite a bit about God, and part of that is from the Bible, and part is from personal experience. But I can see why you think what you do, not having either personal experience or faith.

Re: I tried to keep this short, but...

[darekana]

Well, I think we all have personal experience with God. We're all living amongst God's creations, right? ^_^ But you're right that I don't have faith - at least not in the Bible or traditional Christian teachings. That's what ultimately caused me to leave Roman Catholicism (which is what I was born and raised as). Without faith, it's hard to really follow Christianity.

Re: I tried to keep this short, but...

[aerorei]

It's true that we're living in God's creation, but some people don't even admit that. They deny God's very existence, and by extension, any experience with God. That's sort of what I was trying to say in the original post, that people see the evidence of God's existence and still reject it. And by personal experience, I mean more than just an understanding that God exists, I mean personal contact with His power. It's hard to explain what that means though in an age where God doesn't talk directly to people any more, but instead contacts people through the Spirit.

I think without faith it's hard to do much of anything. I mean, you have faith in other people, or yourself, or the rules of the universe even, right? How is that so different from faith in God when you admit that God exists?

I was going to comment about Catholicism, but I can go on about it for quite a while, so I'll just make a separate post.

Re: I tried to keep this short, but...

[darekana]

> I think without faith it's hard to do much of anything. I mean, you have
> faith in other people, or yourself, or the rules of the universe even, right?
> How is that so different from faith in God when you admit that God exists?

I'm speaking of "faith" in the Christian dogma sense. I certainly have faith in my friends, faith in myself (sometimes ^_~), and yes, even faith that when I let go of an object it will fall to the ground at a rate of 9.82 m/s^2. But I don't have faith in the idea that a man named Jesus was born of a virgin and died for our sins ~2000 years ago, or that God flooded the world and only those people and animals aboard Noah's arc survived, or of most things found in the Bible. And even if you take it less literally, I don't have faith in a lot of what I see (a lot of) Christianity promoting in its beliefs. That's what I mean by a lack of faith on my part.

> I was going to comment about Catholicism, but I can go on about it for
> quite a while, so I'll just make a separate post.

Oh, so could I ^_^