I want my MTV; or Money for Fanfic

[telesilla]

So in some discussions that have been happening on my flist and in other places, the idea has been put forward that money in exchange for fanfic wouldn’t necessarily be a bad, evil, immoral, wrong thing.

Some of the people I was discussing this with were unaware of the fact that Rockfic, for example, exists. There's an archive that charges a

Comments

[angiepen]

I've always sort of eyerolled at the "OMGNOMUNNY!!!!" folks. I figure they're just too young to remember back when we all paid for fanzines. Heck, my first fanfic purchase was a Battlestar Galactica Apollo/Boomer story a lady at a convention was selling -- three pieces of paper and a staple for fifty cents.

And while the assumption was always that the zine publishers needed the money for printing costs, I always figured the prices were at least somewhat inflated with a bit of profit on a per-zine level. First, I don't buy that every zine came from the printer with a nice, round pricetag on it, but all the zines I ever saw for sale at cons were ten dollars or twelve dollars or twenty dollars or whatever. And it makes sense that they would inflate the prices a bit; just because they printed 200 copies doesn't mean they're going to necessarily sell them all, but they still have to pay the printer up front. It'd only be smart to make their break-even point somewhere below the full 200, or whatever their print run was. I don't consider that unreasonable, even for a zine that did sell out every time.

Second, old, out-of-print zines always went for a lot more; someone was making a profit on those classic, ragged Trek zines with the fifty and hundred dollar pricetags, although I'll grant I don't know how often they sold.

Third, most cons I went to back in the day had a fanzine dealer in the Dealer's Room, someone who had a stock of zines from different publishers in different fandoms. They had to buy all those zines, store them somewhere between conventions, buy a dealer's table (which ran about fifty to a hundred dollars per table back in the eighties, IIRC, and didn't always include a convention membership) plus a membership for any helpers who'd spell them to hit the bathroom or get lunch. And since every convention I ever worked for required that everyone selling stuff in the Dealer's Room have a business license, the ones who lasted more than a year or three had to make enough of a profit to convince the IRS that they were a business and not just a hobbyist masquerading.

I never knew a zine dealer who made a living at it, but yeah, they did make a profit. And I never heard anyone grouch about it.

If it were legal to sell fanfic and people started doing it, not with a yearly archive charge but on a per-story or per-anthology basis, there'd almost have to be some way of filtering out the good stuff. Either some editors would crop up to serve the same purpose as the book and magazine editors in the pro publishing world, or reviewers would have an even more prominent role than they do now (although I'll grant that in the LOTRiPS corner of fanficdom they're hardly visible at all) because people would want some clue as to whether Jane Fan's story is worth the money before they entered their credit card number.

And if there were no editors and anyone could put their stuff up for sale, whee! that could be bad for baby writers foolish enough to try charging right from the get-go unless they were wonderfully talented; I know that if I paid even just a couple of bucks for a story that I ended up not liking, I'd never buy one of that writer's stories ever again, unless someone whose opinion I trusted worked hard to convince me she'd improved and this other story by her is really great. Which is how I operate now when I buy books, but I shy away from self-published stuff unless I've heard good things about it. Money makes people pickier and with no editor to guard the gate, it'd make sense for people to be even more cautious than they are with professionally published writers.

I have no problem paying money for stories by writers I already know and like, though. I've bought Elaine's stuff from Torquere and plan to buy Jassy's stuff when it becomes available. I'd be happy to pay money for bound copies of their fanfic, too; I'd kill for a nice, bound copy of Elaine's "Perchance" stories, for example. That was one of the nice things about the Dead Tree Era of fanfiction -- you didn't have to worry about losing your favorite stories if your HD crashed or a site got deleted or whatever. :P

Angie

[angiepen]

[nodnod] The resale market's always been volatile; a lot of stuff you can't give away but there's always been the rare classics that go for piles of money. Heck, when I was hanging out in RomEx (the online home of the RWA, back on GEnie) one fairly wanky topic that cycled through once or twice a year was whether or not used bookstores should exist. :P There's a small but vocal subset of pro writers who don't think it's fair that people can resell their books over and over and make money when the writers aren't getting any of it. [sigh]

I'm sure there's always be a similarly small but vocal subset of fans selling their fic who'd grouch about the same or similar things. Still not a reason not to do it, though, assuming we could get over the primary hurdle of doing it legally.

Angie

[the_reverand]

Just paving the way to OMG FIC PIRACY!

I would buy fic if I felt it was worth it or wanted to support the author, just as I occasionally commission artists that I love and want to support. I don't see a difference, really. However I did answer that the fandom reaction would be "omg, bad wrong, all kinds of trouble", mostly because it is and it will, though I mean more as it concerns fandom and its participants. I think that if it was more widely acceptable and common, people would begin to feel entitled to compensation, which isn't what fandom is about. Writing entitles one to compensation, of course (well, so long as people want to read it, I mean), but in something like fandom, when you begin to make it lucrative... I dunno. Where's the love?

There are folk like you and and darkrose who are going to write regardless, but then there will be people out to make a buck. And, of course, it's possible (even likely) that motivation might not dictate quality, but I can still imagine snarky people demanding compensation for something people don't even want to read, just as some folks bithc about not getting enough comments, as if we owe them for even making the effort.

People trying to sell me something. Fandom commercials. Will I get fandom courtesy calls? Fandom Spam? This fic make you penis largest!

I'm being silly.

I would pay for it, but I don't want it to be sold to me! That's what I mean.

[angiepen]

Since you did reply to me, though.... :)

I clicked the "omg, bad wrong, all kinds of trouble" option too. Not because that's what I think, but because I think that's what most of current fandom thinks. I think the hysteria over the money issue is a bit overblown but it's definitely there.

And I think the same issues which drive the profic economy and the fanfic economy right now would still be in force, but blended to fit the new situation. For one thing, I'll read good fanfic by anyone, whether or not I like the writer, but I'd think twice about giving money to someone I disliked personally. So that fan writer who was whining and snarking because not enough people were buying her story? I wouldn't buy it either.

So far as the love goes, there's plenty of love for pro writers already. I'll admit it's been a while since I've hung out regularly in a pro writer's topic/board/blog/whatever but I doubt it's changed much. The ones who actually hang out and talk to people get plenty of love and the ones who just post "Coming Soon -- My Book" announcements get less. If you want to interact with the fans online, though, you can, whether or not you're making money from your writing.

And I don't know that there'd be a sharp demarcation line between people who post free stories and people who post for pay. It depends how it'd shake out, of course, but I think a lot of people would do both. Figure, there are already published writers who are posting stories online for free -- that was the whole point of Pixel-Stained Technopeasant Day. If it makes sense for them to do so then it'll continue to make sense for fan writers to do so. I think having at least a few really good stories posted in the open would be good advertising; I'd be much more likely to pay for stories by a writer I'd never heard of if I could read a few free samples first.

There's also the issue of tiny niche stories. A tiny fandom or a less popular kink or genre is going to have much less of a market. They already get only a few comments at best; they might not be able to make a go of asking for money. I occasionally write some less popular stories, so even if I were selling my fun-n-smutty Viggorli stuff, I'd still post my weird caged-actors type stories for free. :)

Regarding spam and other obnoxious marketing modes, I'd like to think online fans are too smart to stoop that low. :P I don't buy from companies that spam my e-mail and that'd go for writers as well. I'll bet a lot of people would feel the same way you do about not wanting stuff "sold" to you, and writers who don't market in an obnoxiously agressive manner will sell more easily to that group.

The bottom line, I guess, is that if the legal issue went away, I think the rest of it would work out. Sure, we can think of all sorts of obnoxious possibilities, but I think most folks would be smart enough to avoid the worst pitfalls.

[the_reverand]

You're right, of course, and I was really just being a bit silly and working on a worst case scenario (and some reason to put "penis biggest" into my comment). But I still think it would be one more reason to wank. Though what's one more, I guess, when so many already seem so ready to argue.

Somewhat related, I recently purchased one of those read online short stories from Amazon. It was terrible. I've read farfarfar better fanfiction or even original fic for free. But here was this poorly edited, plotless piece of nonsense and I'd just paid for it. Standards! That will be part of the problem as well.

What about donations? Like a lot of online comics. Donations sound better and should be perfectly legal, no?

[angiepen]

Exactly -- the whole standards thing would become an issue. Heck, the way people sneer and mock now whenever some baby writer posts their first story (and I have a whole 'nother rant about the environment we have in fanfic fandom which makes baby writers think they should post their first story) I'm sure it'd get even louder if folks were paying money for stuff.

But like I mentioned somewhere up there, that's what reviewers are for. My only concern is that it might be difficult to translate the mindset of the majority of fanfic fans away from the OMGHOWDAREUUUU!! attitude toward civil concrit, which is workable if still annoying when everything's free, into a more accepting attitude which would be vital in a for-cash environment.

Another variable, though, is just how much would be charged. If I were selling only electronic copies of my stories then I could charge, say, a quarter per. Maybe fifty cents for a really long one and a dime for a really short one. As a reader I'd be willing to risk quite a few dimes on new writers, especially if they were good at writing summaries. (Which is a skill a lot of writers would have to work on, seriously. [wince]) A newbie writer might charge a nickel and a BNF (in the positive sense of an excellent writer whose stories are very popular) might charge a buck, and we're still not into the realm of huge expenditures for most people.

I haven't bought any e-fiction from Amazon yet so I don't have anything to compare your experience with. Was it a writer whose work you'd read before, or just something with an interesting description? What does Amazon charge?

About donations, I don't know. The online comics I know of that take donations are original creations. Given that fanfic as a whole is a legal grey area, I think having a site with fanfic available and a "Like my stuff? Donate!" button would be even greyer. [wry smile] I don't want to even guess at whether or not that'd be any more legal than just putting a price on each story. [ponder]

Angie

[sidewinder]

Exactly -- the whole standards thing would become an issue. Heck, the way people sneer and mock now whenever some baby writer posts their first story (and I have a whole 'nother rant about the environment we have in fanfic fandom which makes baby writers think they should post their first story) I'm sure it'd get even louder if folks were paying money for stuff.

That may be a fandom to fandom thing, though. I've found the bandfiction community to be incredibly welcoming to new writers...maybe we have fewer BNFs? I don't know.

Another variable, though, is just how much would be charged.

Again just a little sidenote--the RockFic Press books actually come out pretty comparable, if actually often a few dollars cheaper, than most fanzines bought and sold today. People are already paying for media fanfiction based on a multitude of variables (fandom, authors, reputation of the publisher, etc). It's not like it's a new concept at work, only the idea that it may be in certain cases legal to do so, and if there's any (likely quite marginal) profit involved.

About donations, I don't know. The online comics I know of that take donations are original creations. Given that fanfic as a whole is a legal grey area, I think having a site with fanfic available and a "Like my stuff? Donate!" button would be even greyer.

Fandomination.net used to run off of donations if I remember correctly...or at least tried to...most of the time I seem to recall it was just a couple folks out of the hundreds using the site who bothered to contribute anything, which is the problem with a donation model.

[screwthedaisies]

Fandomination.net used to run off of donations if I remember correctly...or at least tried to

As does Adult Fan Fiction, in concert with ad sales. I haven't seen a donation plea in a little while, but I'd seen enough of them by the time we needed to make a server move that I crossed 'donations' off the list of potential funding methods almost right off the bat.

The subscription system has the added bonus that increased revenue from new subscribers funds any server upgrades that the increased load would make necessary; conversely, if suddenly three-quarters of our subscribers dropped out on us, our server load would be reduced along with the income--but we'd then downgrade to a less expensive option.... Everything comes out in the wash, so to speak.

[almostnever]

The more I read about Rockfic, the better and more clever it seems. I admire the thought you've put into the enterprise.

[screwthedaisies]

Thank you!

[the_reverand]

The thing I bought from Amazon was cause by boredom at work and an interesting story description. I'm pretty sure no one looked at it for editing before he posted it for sale. I can't remember what I paid but it was less than a dollar.

[sidewinder]

I think the hysteria over the money issue is a bit overblown but it's definitely there.

I agree, and I'll bring up (as I'm often prone to doing) the strange paradox that it's long been acceptable to make huge profits off of fanart - much of what is in clear violation of copyrights owned by the original photographers for example, and often much more clearly illegal - but people scream for blood over the idea of fanfic for profit, even in the case of RPF where there's plenty of legal ground to see it as okay.

Just as a passing tangent here, mind you :)

And I don't know that there'd be a sharp demarcation line between people who post free stories and people who post for pay. It depends how it'd shake out, of course, but I think a lot of people would do both.

Exactly. All of the stories I've published through RF Press are still available on line either on the $2/year archive or in my own lj for free (if, yes, behind friends-lock but I don't keep out anyone who actually wants to read the stuff, it's just to avoid other hassles.) I think the same is safe to say for most of the RockFic authors who have published at this point. It's not so much to replace the for-free market but to find ways to expand, maybe reach some new audiences...and also just to have nicely bound, pretty copies of favorite stories up on a bookshelf instead of just on the computer.

[angiepen]

That's an excellent point about fan art; I'd never thought about it before. I've bought art at conventions depicting actors and/or proprietary characters and never thought about the legality. Clearly the convention never did either. [wry smile] I've never bought anything which included photography, nor is it really common in SF con art shows; that'd be a whole 'nother level of complexity, I would think.

I'd definitely be interested in having bound copies of my favorite fan stories. [nod] I have some recent collections of fanfic people on LJ have put together; they sold for pretty close to cost plus shipping to avoid the whole profit evilness; I think one of them said that anything above costs would go to some charity, which is fine, although I don't imagine there was much. The strong anti-elitist meme running through fandom ensured that a noticeable number of the stories in these books are of, shall we say, less than stellar quality, but I'm happy with them any way just because they're bound. They're real, I can hold them and read them on the couch or in the bathroom or on a plane, and they won't vanish if LJ does. That's enough IMO to make up for a few stinkers in the mix.

Angie

[sidewinder]

That's an excellent point about fan art; I'd never thought about it before. I've bought art at conventions depicting actors and/or proprietary characters and never thought about the legality. Clearly the convention never did either. [wry smile]

Many of the larger conventions--such as DragonCon, for example--will not allow any fanart for this reason, or any images of celebrities or trademarked logos or items (a Star Trek communicator, for example) unless the artist can show proof of ownership of the copyright or trademark. The legality can be hazy in some cases, but even using a specific photo reference to do a drawing of someone can get into the issue of copyright of that initial photograph. And then there's the issue of an original painting or drawing perhaps being okay, but making a 100+ edition print run of it?

And let's not even get into the issue of photomanipulations...

Now I say this as someone who does fanart herself, but only for certain very few markets these days or for my own enjoyment.

[angiepen]

I'm going to BayCon toward the end of this month and I'll definitely be paying attention in the Art Show. I haven't been terribly interested in actual fan art, as in pictures of TV and movie characters and such, in recent years but it'll be interesting to see what's there.

Angie