Alpha Beta Omega: of Winchesters and alphabet soup

[technosage]

Installment 2 of Sunday Supernatural meta. *g*

Comments

[bluesister]

I'm convinced. Someone wrote about this a couple of weeks ago and once I stopped to think about it this seemed so clear. Obviously, I need to start reading romances (I had no idea this was a thing in them).

This other writer--Beanside or Nilchance, maybe--pointed out that this is a matter of interpersonal dynamics, not hierarchy. Or at least, not good/better/best.

You know those personality tests workplaces give to help you understand yourself and others? They never did much for me but this topic is actually useful! Maybe I'm just demonstrating where I fit into group dynamics but being a Beta sounds like the best gig to me.

One of the things I enjoyed about Wiseguy, the series, was how they showed that being an enforcer, blindly following orders, could be quite seductive. Maybe it only is for some personalities but I could see the appeal of making no moral decisions, just investing one person with all the complications that go with power and then acting.

Very interesting!

[technosage]

I don't think I could take the stress of never making moral decisions. I'd be freaking out that the other person was wrong and I was doing something that I couldn't agree with if I actually thought about it, and... *g* I'm terrible at taking orders, and will often interpret them creatively to let me do exactly what I want

[eboniorchid]

You and I totally got into this massive multi-comment long discussion of this stuff back in the early days after meeting each other, but it was really awesome to read it laid out like this. I found myself saying "YES, EXACTLY!" at the screen a lot while reading this.

Thanks for sharing this awesome meta!

[technosage]

I remember that! :)

I'm glad it pinged for you, babe!

[zelda_zee]

Oh man, I love this. It coalesces all these ideas I've had about the Winchester family dynamic and actually makes sense of things I've pondered in a disorganized way, and gives me a new tool for interpretation. I hadn't thought of Sam, Dean & John in relation to pack dynamics before. It really helps focus things.

You know, I was just rewatching S1 and I kind of think Sam first asserted himself in Phantom Traveller. He was the one who insisted on getting on that plane and Dean totally bent to his will there.

I'm gonna pimp this to my flist, because it's just too interesting to miss. Thanks!

[unperfectwolf]

Oh oh, can I comment here? You made my mind go all sparkly-pretty with your comment "I was just rewatching S1 and I kind of think Sam first asserted himself in Phantom Traveller. He was the one who insisted on getting on that plane and Dean totally bent to his will there." I got into this fandom way way way late and ended up watching all of season one in about four days (always after dark, too. *shiver*) and I tell you, it shows up really quick, these kinds of trends. My thoughts on that basically went like this: Sam wasn't starting to assert himself. He broke away from his pack and went into a phase where he was a lone wolf, then he finds himself a mate, AND a pack. Did you see his and Jess' reaction to their friend in the bar? Yeah, sure, you can take it as two kids who really didn't a) want more alcohol or b) want their friend to have any either (or both), but the way they barked it out, together, made me think of two people use to giving orders (or just directing a group of people, keeping order, that kind of stuff), together some

[zelda_zee]

You are right. What I meant to say is that Sam first seemed to unequivocally assert himself against Dean in Phantom Traveller. I agree that his actions in striking out on his own and setting up housekeeping with Jess were the actions of an alpha, I was just thinking that in relation to Dean specifically it seems like insisting they get on that plane in the face of Dean's disagreement was the first blatant evidence of that in their relationship that I remember seeing. And when Dean balked Sam said he'd go alone (which also seems like an alpha move), and so of course Dean had to go with him.

I admit that initially I fell into the trap of thinking Dean was the alpha, b/c of his personality, and Sam's, and the fact that Sam's younger - all that stuff. Then I started reading Wincest and ended up trying to figure out why I liked it best when Sam tops and ended up reassessing the way I saw their relationship b/c of that. Just another case of porn prompting Deep Thoughts!

I came on board at the end of S1 - a latecomer as well.

[technosage]

I came on in the hiatus and mainlined the entire first season in like five days over the summer. :)

While I totally agree with Sam!top and do, myself, base it off of the perceived interpersonal dynamics, I do want to point out that it doesn't always work that way with humans even though it would with wolves. Going back to my previous meta on top and bottom, I just want to inject a note of caution about insisting Sam must be the relationship top because of him being Alpha. *g*

[miss_begonia]

Yes, and more yes. I was inclined to agree from the get-go, but the way you break it down here - in way more articulate form than I've ever been able to - is exactly the way I've seen Dean, pretty much from the beginning. I think the reason Dean gets labeled as the Alpha is because Dean likes to IMPERSONATE the Alpha, because in Dean's mind, Beta is basically equal to "bitch," and that ruffles his feathers but good. But the truth is that Dean has pretty much always had the Beta role - the one that requires absolute loyalty, support and almost unconditional devotion

[technosage]

I'm supposed to be writing, but I wanted to jump on something. I meant to mention the thing where Sam says Dean is more like John in BUaBS.

First, I really think that's a demon-lie. The demon's trying to get to Dean. And Dean doesn't think he's like his dad. He doesn't think he's as good as his dad or as Sam. The demon then goes on to say that he's no use to Sam and Dad and they'd have been better off without him

[technosage]

I think the reason Dean gets labeled as the Alpha is because Dean likes to IMPERSONATE the Alpha, because in Dean's mind, Beta is basically equal to "bitch," and that ruffles his feathers but good.

♥ I agree with this with one caveat. Beta=/=bitch. Dean just thinks it does. Dean falls prey to the exact misunderstanding that I'm trying to bust here, and I think the fact that Dean has it, is why we see so much objection to Beta!Dean in fandom.

Sam says "you really are sort of butch. people probably think you're overcompensating." Ding ding ding, give the boy a prize. He is overcompensating. With that, and with the infamous "no chick flick moments." Dude, Dean is the primary generator of chick-flick moments. It's just he's insecure about his masculinity or something since he was Sam's mommy and now he mocks Sam every time Sam opens up. (But he loves ever second of it. *g*)

I think the fact that Sam is more of an alpha type and Dean is more beta is what ultimately makes them well-suited to each other - and you can interpret that in a

[miss_begonia]

Beta=/=bitch. Dean just thinks it does.EXACTLY. That's what I meant. Like, if you told Dean that he was basically Sam's mommy he'd be all, "WTF?" but in actuality mothers are often the strongest members of a family, and they're who often holds a family together. This isn't a hard and fast rule or anything, but I actually think that Dean is stronger than even he thinks he is

[nekare]

He'll leave any woman, any job, any anything to be with Sam, to take care of him, to nurture him, and yes, to protect him

Ah, so very true. Quite interesting, the entire thing. :)

[technosage]

Thank you. Or, well, really, thank Kripke for making them that way. *g*