It's being targeted as "mummy porn" out here and that actually annoys me more. Not all fanfiction is about porn, thank you!
I know, right? Yeah, there's definitely a lot of porn in fanfiction out there, but there's definitely more out there than that. Honestly, I think the only reason the media cares about the popularity of this book is because it brings to light that *gasp* porn isn't just for men. Even if it's poorly-written nonsense like 50 Shades of Grey.
Twilight bothers me for many reasons (first person narrative, vampires, the way S. Meyer portrays werewolves, etc.), but I can respect it for what it is. From what I know, it's a popcorn read: something quick and relatively engaging that's kind of hard to get away from once you get into it, like a fic with an interesting enough premise/plot to keep you reading until the end though the writing is probably mediocre at best. It's also the vibe I get from the Hunger Games trilogy, though I think the author of that series (whose name escapes me at the moment) was trying to make a point with those books, unlike Meyer who was essentially writing down an extension of an erotic dream she had.
When it comes to writing quality, however, both of those series can fall back on the YA excuse for shoddy writing. 50 Shades cannot. There's too much explicit sex for it to be anything less than 'adult fiction.' I haven't read a novel with first person POV that has yet to reach the depths of terrible that what little I've read of 50 Shades has. I expect (professionally) published works to reach a certain standard of quality, especially when they are geared at an audience with a (supposedly) high level of reading comprehension, and this book does not meet those standards by a long shot. Whoever edited it wasn't doing their job well at all. I've skimmed through better X-rated romance novels while book shopping with my mother, and I don't see what's so special about this book.
I suppose it frustrates me because I've read some really high quality writing in fic throughout the years that deserves praise a million times more than E.L. James's drivel. Blah, sorry for the extra mini rant.
Probably in terms of the media caring about it. It got onto one of our main current affairs show (prime-spot, etc) because of the target of "mommy porn". I think it's trying to open this whole young mom/reading in a park type of acceptance that I can't quite grasp, but can't help be annoyed at. The majority of my favourite fics are generally gen, or a slow romance, with a massive amount of world building. And there are plenty of fics that is much better porn than 50 Shades.
Yeah, I don't like the Twlight book much at all (bad writing really is a no-go for me, and I couldn't connect to Bella), but I like what the movies have done with it. They've worked well with what they've had (although I haven't seen the fourth one), and perhaps it's the draw to the minor character actors & actresses, as well as the cinematography and action scenes that makes me like it. I'm not well-versed on my werewolves & vampires etc, to be able to compare it to anything else - my fantasy field tended to be more magic/knight related.
I understand about that fic! I'm currently read a 500,000 SGA fic where the character is a Gary Stu, woobie, unrealistic characterisation of others, as well as unrealism (brain surgery does not take 3 hours and they'll be "fine" after 2 days, ffs. Or have them talking an hour after surgery) and almost boring in ways, but there's something to it that I've enjoyed reading it as I go to bed each night. I'm finding the Kindle works amazingly well for fics that are tropey as hell, but due to decent technical writing, you'll read over a few weeks.
I started the Hunger Games book while waiting for a bus and there's definitely something there with teh vibe -- although I think it's more of a _strong_ author voice that strikes with me. I need to read more, haven't read the full triology or seen the movie - but it feels that the FPN there works quite well. Or atleast, she's got a very strong voice that wouldn't have pulled off well in Third PN.
Argh, agreed. Professionally published works with an agent should be at a higher standard. It's actualyl something that had me throwing HP 6 & 7 books across the room a considerable amount of times - her writing by then was significantly lower in standard compared to others, and more to the point: her editors' didn't do their job properly. And lol, yes, some Harlequinn books aren't actually too bad in their writing!
I agree -- most fanfic writing that gets praised is good, and any work that is good on technical writing and interesting characterisation will get my attention - no matter what the fandom. There has been so many fics that deserve praise a lot more than 50 Shades of Grey and frankly, a few of them that deserve better than the original fiction. Unfortunately the media attention with 50 Shades makes it seem worse - or that every fanfiction writer is aspiring to sell as original fic.
Rant all you like! I very rarely get to talk about books and fanfiction so thanks for letting me rant on your journal! :)
I think I'm pretty much the same in terms of how I like to read relationships in fic. If romance is a heavy theme, I like it to be slow-burning and at least somewhat tragic. Gen is best, though, especially if there's some action thrown in at some point. Most of my favorite stories are gen or have romance in the background, but there is plenty of decent sex to be found out there. The porn in 50 Shades is depressingly bad.
Haha, I've fallen for a few long badfics before (oh, Harry Potter fandom, how easily you lure me into these), but I actually got that analogy from my best friend. She read the Twilight series when the two of us were in high school, right before/during the time when the books first started getting popular. She recommended Twilight to me once because I was bemoaning having nothing new to read, and she gave me the badfic description when I pointed out how poorly it was written. I've never been big on vampires, though, and I'm stupidly picky about my werewolves, which is why Meyers's version of them bugs me so much. I'm usually more of a high fantasy reader (magic, elves, dragons, etc.), so this generally isn't a problem for me.
I've heard some good and bad things about the first-person POV in Hunger Games, and even though I have a strong aversion to that particular format, I think that once school is out I'm going to give those books another try. I had the chance to see the movie not too long ago, and I really liked the bits of world-building I've gotten from that and secondhand from discussions about the books I've stumbled across online. I haven't had time to get much pleasure reading (or much of anything else for fun) done in the past couple of months, and I think that if I had the time to sit down and actually let myself get absorbed in the books, I'd like them. I know I'm going to do that with Game of Thrones at some point this summer. I had to set it aside earlier this year due to a plodding writing style and lack of time on my part.
I've still yet to make it through HP 6 and 7, but the downward pattern of editing in Rowling's books was clear even in the fourth book (which, oddly enough, happens to be my favourite of the series). There was so much filler in there that never would have flown had the series not been as popular as it was at the time, and after that it almost seemed as if editors were scared to correct her work outside of some grammar and Americanizing for the US release of the books in fear of backlash or something. What's been getting to me more and more are punctuation errors in these books of rising popularity that no one bothered to fix. seriously, there is no reason for all of the ellipses in the little passage of 50 Shades in the YouTube clip in the body of this post, and even though I'm not the best person to talk to in terms of comma usage, people seriously need to become reacquainted with it and its cousin the apostrophe to figure out where they go.
...every fanfiction writer is aspiring to sell as original fic.
Frankly, I think this is probably what worries me the most about this trend. I personally have no intention of selling fic as original work, but I know of others who would be more than happy to do so. I'm kind of wondering if Stephanie Meyer (or at least her people) will put any sort of moratorium on fanworks in order to keep lawsuits from cropping up. That would certainly make things interesting. We'll see, I guess.
*face palm*. So, almost TWO months later, I realised you replied to me. Sorry about that!
Oh the porn in 50 Shades of Grey is awful :( If people wanted to read that, FFA has been fantastic in giving other het BDSM links and argh, any erotica book is likely to be better than 50 Shades of Grey. She's awful, doesn't hold any tone well, and seems to be incredibly inexperienced writing in an area that while experience doesn't mean everything, the desire does. Much more than Twilight & it's worrying "girl gives up life for male/teenage love" thing, she's promoting a form of BDSM that seems very irresponsible, and I wish could be held to-account for, considering the culture icon that book has become. Plus, I can't get over the whole "originally was a fanfic" & seemingly, her bad attitude towards readers thing.
Your best friend had the perfect analogy! Stupid thing is, I don't actually mind Twilight as the films - the cinematography & cast make it bearable if I ignore the implications and the bad parts of the story :) (Have you seen the gifset with Edward and Buffy before?) I suspect it's probably how people can watch Glee & love it, without delving deeper in it, which I admit, I've was doing for a while there so I can enjoy the damn show.
You and I have very similiar tastes: I love gen, with a bit of action and some romance, and case fic & teamfic or long AU's/dystopias/apocalypses with a good amount of world building being my most favourite. SGA is fantastic for that type of ground (although for some reason, I find SG1 boring), which is why I kept with the 500,000 fic that I actually liked towards the end, and kept with the Harry Potter Sacrifices Arc where the worldbulding in that was absolutely amazing. Although that one took me awhile to establish appropriate word limits again. After 3 million words, I was finding that I could whip through 200,000 words in a few hours!
(Avengers & other Marvel movie verse is a fantastic mix of team fic right now, so I'm loving it. Which brings me to my point: what's the Xmen fandom like? I was never much into superheroes or comics, but I'm comfortably getting excited about the fandom, especially after Glee, and looking to extend as I really love action.)
For fantasy, I've always been mainly magic-related, and/or knight related. Never was a vampire & werewolves girl, and funny enough, not elves, although I did like a few dragon stories when I was younger. More I think about it, I'm definitely more mage & knighthood related for fantasy. Tamora Pierce was one of my most favourite childhood authors.
The Hunger Games is definitely quite good, and shows an interesting political & socio-economic world that I'd love to see explored in fanfic. I cheated and read Wikipedia about books 2 & 3, and am tossing up about reading it or not. I suspect for book 2 & 3, I'll get it on the ereader rather than a physical book, as it feels like a boook that you need to read from here to there, rather than all it once, which I tend to do with a physical book. I agree with you about Games of Thrones also, I definitely want to read it as well. It seems to have an excellent world-building aspect of it, and a good balance of characters too.
I can think about 4 different fics that I preferred to the ending of HP 6 & 7 in terms of writing quality - although I forget some of the names now. It's been interesting to explore AO3 & other rec lists to see so many fics that I loved, and want to reread, and I think that's definitely the impact of an excellent fanfic that is better than the book- a fic that 4-5 years later, a reader wants to reread. Which speaking of, I need to read your Games People Play, now that it's finished :) Sorry, I don't tend to read WIPs, but I've been looking forward to reading inyron's You Can't Choose and your Games People Play for AGES.
I agree about the editors, it seems that now, or perhaps in cost cutting measures, they miss the grammar & punctuation because people would be more inspired to read it due to culture, and ignore such things. Even if the writing is good - really bad punctuation and tricky writing will still detract away from the book.
I agree about that worrying trend. For authors who want to make a bit of money off fanfic they've been able to adjust, and it's a good worldbuilding fic, fantastic! Link me & I'll be happy to read if you've adapted if the worldbuilding can stand on it's own. As well as erotica or romance books in ways, some are pretty fantastic too when you feel like something less complex. (Hence highschool, college & coffee-shop/bakershop AU's being my weakness.) But it's not at trend for everyone, ya know?
What worries me is that trend seems runs through fanfic writing critique where the fic MUST be the most perfect fic ever & be at publishing level, when the one-off written off the cuff fics & mood pieces that's well written is just as good as a long, complex fic that could be adapted for original fic. Good technical work is definitely amazing, but authors write fanfic to fill in canon & to write for themselves and reviews. Their voice, premise and a good story ia forgiving to issues that may prevent an original work being good - hence my problem with some critiques. It detracts writers who are just writing for themselves & reviews as a hobby, and for newer writings who are cutting their teeth on things. I've only written 3 small pieces, and all of them have been anon for that reason - which could potentially be why comment fic (plus, the ongoing reviews, which would definitely help!) has become a big trend.
I wouldn't be surprised if a monatorium happens. There's certainly enough authors to be annoyed about it - and I can understand their point when you're extending their fanfic, their world & such into original fic. Anne Rice & the hate of fanfic, on the other hand...
Argh, sorry for the novel!
ETA: Sorry, reading the WHOLE thread in context, I realise I've repeated myself a lot. Sorry about that, I was responding to your comment and didn't realise that I already had said it
I know, right? Yeah, there's definitely a lot of porn in fanfiction out there, but there's definitely more out there than that. Honestly, I think the only reason the media cares about the popularity of this book is because it brings to light that *gasp* porn isn't just for men. Even if it's poorly-written nonsense like 50 Shades of Grey.
Twilight bothers me for many reasons (first person narrative, vampires, the way S. Meyer portrays werewolves, etc.), but I can respect it for what it is. From what I know, it's a popcorn read: something quick and relatively engaging that's kind of hard to get away from once you get into it, like a fic with an interesting enough premise/plot to keep you reading until the end though the writing is probably mediocre at best. It's also the vibe I get from the Hunger Games trilogy, though I think the author of that series (whose name escapes me at the moment) was trying to make a point with those books, unlike Meyer who was essentially writing down an extension of an erotic dream she had.
When it comes to writing quality, however, both of those series can fall back on the YA excuse for shoddy writing. 50 Shades cannot. There's too much explicit sex for it to be anything less than 'adult fiction.' I haven't read a novel with first person POV that has yet to reach the depths of terrible that what little I've read of 50 Shades has. I expect (professionally) published works to reach a certain standard of quality, especially when they are geared at an audience with a (supposedly) high level of reading comprehension, and this book does not meet those standards by a long shot. Whoever edited it wasn't doing their job well at all. I've skimmed through better X-rated romance novels while book shopping with my mother, and I don't see what's so special about this book.
I suppose it frustrates me because I've read some really high quality writing in fic throughout the years that deserves praise a million times more than E.L. James's drivel. Blah, sorry for the extra mini rant.
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Yeah, I don't like the Twlight book much at all (bad writing really is a no-go for me, and I couldn't connect to Bella), but I like what the movies have done with it. They've worked well with what they've had (although I haven't seen the fourth one), and perhaps it's the draw to the minor character actors & actresses, as well as the cinematography and action scenes that makes me like it. I'm not well-versed on my werewolves & vampires etc, to be able to compare it to anything else - my fantasy field tended to be more magic/knight related.
I understand about that fic! I'm currently read a 500,000 SGA fic where the character is a Gary Stu, woobie, unrealistic characterisation of others, as well as unrealism (brain surgery does not take 3 hours and they'll be "fine" after 2 days, ffs. Or have them talking an hour after surgery) and almost boring in ways, but there's something to it that I've enjoyed reading it as I go to bed each night. I'm finding the Kindle works amazingly well for fics that are tropey as hell, but due to decent technical writing, you'll read over a few weeks.
I started the Hunger Games book while waiting for a bus and there's definitely something there with teh vibe -- although I think it's more of a _strong_ author voice that strikes with me. I need to read more, haven't read the full triology or seen the movie - but it feels that the FPN there works quite well. Or atleast, she's got a very strong voice that wouldn't have pulled off well in Third PN.
Argh, agreed. Professionally published works with an agent should be at a higher standard. It's actualyl something that had me throwing HP 6 & 7 books across the room a considerable amount of times - her writing by then was significantly lower in standard compared to others, and more to the point: her editors' didn't do their job properly. And lol, yes, some Harlequinn books aren't actually too bad in their writing!
I agree -- most fanfic writing that gets praised is good, and any work that is good on technical writing and interesting characterisation will get my attention - no matter what the fandom. There has been so many fics that deserve praise a lot more than 50 Shades of Grey and frankly, a few of them that deserve better than the original fiction. Unfortunately the media attention with 50 Shades makes it seem worse - or that every fanfiction writer is aspiring to sell as original fic.
Rant all you like! I very rarely get to talk about books and fanfiction so thanks for letting me rant on your journal! :)
Reply
Haha, I've fallen for a few long badfics before (oh, Harry Potter fandom, how easily you lure me into these), but I actually got that analogy from my best friend. She read the Twilight series when the two of us were in high school, right before/during the time when the books first started getting popular. She recommended Twilight to me once because I was bemoaning having nothing new to read, and she gave me the badfic description when I pointed out how poorly it was written. I've never been big on vampires, though, and I'm stupidly picky about my werewolves, which is why Meyers's version of them bugs me so much. I'm usually more of a high fantasy reader (magic, elves, dragons, etc.), so this generally isn't a problem for me.
I've heard some good and bad things about the first-person POV in Hunger Games, and even though I have a strong aversion to that particular format, I think that once school is out I'm going to give those books another try. I had the chance to see the movie not too long ago, and I really liked the bits of world-building I've gotten from that and secondhand from discussions about the books I've stumbled across online. I haven't had time to get much pleasure reading (or much of anything else for fun) done in the past couple of months, and I think that if I had the time to sit down and actually let myself get absorbed in the books, I'd like them. I know I'm going to do that with Game of Thrones at some point this summer. I had to set it aside earlier this year due to a plodding writing style and lack of time on my part.
I've still yet to make it through HP 6 and 7, but the downward pattern of editing in Rowling's books was clear even in the fourth book (which, oddly enough, happens to be my favourite of the series). There was so much filler in there that never would have flown had the series not been as popular as it was at the time, and after that it almost seemed as if editors were scared to correct her work outside of some grammar and Americanizing for the US release of the books in fear of backlash or something. What's been getting to me more and more are punctuation errors in these books of rising popularity that no one bothered to fix. seriously, there is no reason for all of the ellipses in the little passage of 50 Shades in the YouTube clip in the body of this post, and even though I'm not the best person to talk to in terms of comma usage, people seriously need to become reacquainted with it and its cousin the apostrophe to figure out where they go.
...every fanfiction writer is aspiring to sell as original fic.
Frankly, I think this is probably what worries me the most about this trend. I personally have no intention of selling fic as original work, but I know of others who would be more than happy to do so. I'm kind of wondering if Stephanie Meyer (or at least her people) will put any sort of moratorium on fanworks in order to keep lawsuits from cropping up. That would certainly make things interesting. We'll see, I guess.
Reply
Oh the porn in 50 Shades of Grey is awful :( If people wanted to read that, FFA has been fantastic in giving other het BDSM links and argh, any erotica book is likely to be better than 50 Shades of Grey. She's awful, doesn't hold any tone well, and seems to be incredibly inexperienced writing in an area that while experience doesn't mean everything, the desire does. Much more than Twilight & it's worrying "girl gives up life for male/teenage love" thing, she's promoting a form of BDSM that seems very irresponsible, and I wish could be held to-account for, considering the culture icon that book has become. Plus, I can't get over the whole "originally was a fanfic" & seemingly, her bad attitude towards readers thing.
Your best friend had the perfect analogy! Stupid thing is, I don't actually mind Twilight as the films - the cinematography & cast make it bearable if I ignore the implications and the bad parts of the story :) (Have you seen the gifset with Edward and Buffy before?) I suspect it's probably how people can watch Glee & love it, without delving deeper in it, which I admit, I've was doing for a while there so I can enjoy the damn show.
You and I have very similiar tastes: I love gen, with a bit of action and some romance, and case fic & teamfic or long AU's/dystopias/apocalypses with a good amount of world building being my most favourite. SGA is fantastic for that type of ground (although for some reason, I find SG1 boring), which is why I kept with the 500,000 fic that I actually liked towards the end, and kept with the Harry Potter Sacrifices Arc where the worldbulding in that was absolutely amazing. Although that one took me awhile to establish appropriate word limits again. After 3 million words, I was finding that I could whip through 200,000 words in a few hours!
(Avengers & other Marvel movie verse is a fantastic mix of team fic right now, so I'm loving it. Which brings me to my point: what's the Xmen fandom like? I was never much into superheroes or comics, but I'm comfortably getting excited about the fandom, especially after Glee, and looking to extend as I really love action.)
For fantasy, I've always been mainly magic-related, and/or knight related. Never was a vampire & werewolves girl, and funny enough, not elves, although I did like a few dragon stories when I was younger. More I think about it, I'm definitely more mage & knighthood related for fantasy. Tamora Pierce was one of my most favourite childhood authors.
The Hunger Games is definitely quite good, and shows an interesting political & socio-economic world that I'd love to see explored in fanfic. I cheated and read Wikipedia about books 2 & 3, and am tossing up about reading it or not. I suspect for book 2 & 3, I'll get it on the ereader rather than a physical book, as it feels like a boook that you need to read from here to there, rather than all it once, which I tend to do with a physical book. I agree with you about Games of Thrones also, I definitely want to read it as well. It seems to have an excellent world-building aspect of it, and a good balance of characters too.
I can think about 4 different fics that I preferred to the ending of HP 6 & 7 in terms of writing quality - although I forget some of the names now. It's been interesting to explore AO3 & other rec lists to see so many fics that I loved, and want to reread, and I think that's definitely the impact of an excellent fanfic that is better than the book- a fic that 4-5 years later, a reader wants to reread. Which speaking of, I need to read your Games People Play, now that it's finished :) Sorry, I don't tend to read WIPs, but I've been looking forward to reading inyron's You Can't Choose and your Games People Play for AGES.
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I agree about that worrying trend. For authors who want to make a bit of money off fanfic they've been able to adjust, and it's a good worldbuilding fic, fantastic! Link me & I'll be happy to read if you've adapted if the worldbuilding can stand on it's own. As well as erotica or romance books in ways, some are pretty fantastic too when you feel like something less complex. (Hence highschool, college & coffee-shop/bakershop AU's being my weakness.) But it's not at trend for everyone, ya know?
What worries me is that trend seems runs through fanfic writing critique where the fic MUST be the most perfect fic ever & be at publishing level, when the one-off written off the cuff fics & mood pieces that's well written is just as good as a long, complex fic that could be adapted for original fic. Good technical work is definitely amazing, but authors write fanfic to fill in canon & to write for themselves and reviews. Their voice, premise and a good story ia forgiving to issues that may prevent an original work being good - hence my problem with some critiques. It detracts writers who are just writing for themselves & reviews as a hobby, and for newer writings who are cutting their teeth on things. I've only written 3 small pieces, and all of them have been anon for that reason - which could potentially be why comment fic (plus, the ongoing reviews, which would definitely help!) has become a big trend.
I wouldn't be surprised if a monatorium happens. There's certainly enough authors to be annoyed about it - and I can understand their point when you're extending their fanfic, their world & such into original fic. Anne Rice & the hate of fanfic, on the other hand...
Argh, sorry for the novel!
ETA: Sorry, reading the WHOLE thread in context, I realise I've repeated myself a lot. Sorry about that, I was responding to your comment and didn't realise that I already had said it
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