I think we have a culture at the moment where it's right to be fearful of certain things, being careful about not walking down certain streets or whatever should be a basic survival thing. If you're not careful, you will increase your chances of being attacked, and that's probably not a sensible thing. You wouldn't walk in the middle of a battlefield and expect not to get shot because guns are bad and people shouldn't fire them?
I dunno I'm the type of bloke that believes in standing on the outside of the path when walking with children, so that if a car comes off the road I'm more likely to get hit first. I'd also teach a child not to walk near the edge of the pavement. Yes, cars should stay on the road, and people shouldn't ever get drunk or pass out and come off onto the pavement... but it can and does happen and I'd seek to minimise that risk.
And yes, it doesn't make it 'safe' as if nothing will happen, in my example there, a car could still come out of a driveway. You shouldn't stop looking out for yourself just because things should be better than they are though.
I'm the type of bloke that believes in standing on the outside of the path when walking with children, so that if a car comes off the road I'm more likely to get hit first. I'd also teach a child not to walk near the edge of the pavement. Yes, cars should stay on the road, and people shouldn't ever get drunk or pass out and come off onto the pavement... but it can and does happen and I'd seek to minimise that risk.
Difference being, while you'll get blamed if you're drunk and fall off the pavement, you'll not get blamed for having been on the pavement if a car comes of the road. Whereas with rape, if while doing something perfectly legal and inherently non-dangerous (wearing a short skirt, flirting, drinking) you get raped, you could still be blamed.
There's nothing wrong with walking on the pavement, and I'm not going to stop walking on the pavement for fear of a car hitting me. Better to advocate safer driving, no?
Yes, but would you walk on the edge of the pavement of a busy road when it's known that accidents happen in that area?
Unravelling my original point here, the meme suggests women shouldn't take care of themselves or shouldn't be advised to. I think personally think that's a bit of a blazé outlook.
To be honest I don't think broadcasting like this on LJ really helps at all, except for people who are pretty much like minded on the core issues by default (there's a reason people add each other as friends) winding up splitting hairs and semantics.
I'll stay as I was I think, unaffected by this meme, and I'll continue to look out for people, stay careful. I'll fight for the better world by my actions, and by not tolerating the problems. You might not be able to see the implications I did, I guess we have different understandings of sexism and equality.
It's sexist to assume all men are rapists! Instead, we should advise women to wear longer skirts, because God knows those crucial inches are the difference between a man being a rapist and a nice guy.
The meme is sayin 'some men rape. how women behave will not affect whether they are raped' The contrary point appears to be 'a women acting incorrectly can make a perfectly normal man into a rapist'
I think point two is much more denigratory towards men, frankly.
The meme doesn't say "some men", it actually goes on to inform you to tell your sons, and pretty much says to tell every other male you may know. The implication being that they need telling. Whatever the point being made, two 'wrongs' do not make a right here.
By extension, would it therefore be right to say "Do not bomb us when we are walking down the street", etc etc, and finish with "Tell every muslim you know." ? Because *some* muslims might potentially be thinking of bombing British people?
That is where I have a problem with the sexism in the meme. If it did actually say "some men", if it was more specific about the point it was trying to make instead of just piling on emotion and creating a bandwagon for people to LJ about, then I think I'd actually be in full support of it. The actual point about being against these sortof attitudes in society, I do agree with.
I've been arguing this elsewhere, and really, it's probably pointless. I'd never advise women 'wear longer skirts' or not-flirt-ever or whatever. I'd simply advise them, the same as I'd advise blokes, to exercise caution. Not everyone can be trusted, that unfortunately is the truth about society as a whole. I would say it might not be sensible to wear a short skirt out without a coat this time of year though, the amount of casualities we have on NYE and Christmas time due to hypothermia and stuff because people really don't think about what they're wearing sometimes is really very silly!! But again, like most of the semantics and metaphores being debated here, that's probably a separate issue?
Basically, that part of the meme says: don't tell women they shouldn't get raped, tell men they shouldn't rape. Yes, it generalizes, but all women are potential victims of rape, and - please read this with due care and attention - all men are potential rapists. In the sense that if you are walking home at night and walking about ten feet behind a woman you don't know, from her perspective, you could be a rapist. If you're alone on the top deck of a bus with a women, for her, you could be a rapist. So in a sense, every man is a potential rapist for the majority of women. And that's horrible! If all the men who believed rape was wrong did go about saying 'rape is horrible, it's a violation, I want everyone to know this' if they did say it to their sons and godsons and friends, then maybe it would sink in. Because it's easy to say 'my sons would not rape'. How many people have said that, compared to those who have said 'well actually, I did think he was a rapist type'. 80,000 women a year are raped. Turn that around, 80,000 men rape a year. (Yes, some men commit more than one rape. They're loose figures.) Odds are, you do know, somewhere, casually, someone who has raped. You almost certainly know someone who's been raped.
I'd say avoiding hypothermia is a separate issue, yeah. ;)
You've missed the point that both me and LGD have made all the way through this post.
Neither of us would say it's OK to be raped, or that the woman is at fault, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take measures to put yourself at less risk.
Looking both ways before you cross the road won't STOP you getting hit by a car, but it will REDUCE the chance of it.
A few seconds thought about the fact that the world isn't a safe place (men AND women) will put you at much less risk of rape, assault, mugging, abuse etc. You can't stop it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't bother trying to.
tankgirlinblack, don't wear your corset in public. It's clearly a sexy outfit and men will think you want attention. I've seen you quite drunk, that puts you in danger. Stop it. You'll be safer if you don't walk home alone, I know you've been hassled before so you know it's dangerous.
Yup, I've helped there, and I bet it wasn't patronising at all!
You wouldn't be patronising if I thought you were saying it out of genuine concern for my safety.
And for the record...................
*I usually wear stuff under a corset if I'm out in town and not going directly to somewhere. I WOULDN'T wear it to a club where I didn't know the attitudes of the clientele and staff. I wouldn't wear what I've worn to Carnival Of Souls at Ret or any other general goth/alt night, and I wouldn't wear the kind of thing I'd wear there in a non-alt venue. I did it once(twice if you include Wendyhouse), I got chavs groping me, and treating me like piece of meat. Other girls didn't seem bothered by it, so I suppose the guys think it's OK. In case you never noticed I allways have a big top or coat that I'm wearing when I arrive and leave clubs, especially if I'm wearing OTT stuff
*Yes I do get drunk, when I'm out with friends, and I never get so drunk I couldn't say "no", shout for help, punch or bite someone if I got into trouble. My friends look out for me, just like I hope they know I look out for them.
*I did sometimes walk home alone(through very well lit and busy places, always walking facing oncoming traffic, and in shoes I could run/kick like fuck in if needs be), foolish I know, and after getting a bottle thrown at me I stopped. If I haven't got enough money for a taxi home now, I don't go out.
Aside from avoiding groping in clubs (which hey, has happened to me in the past, and people have been appropriately dealt with -slapped/told off), I make very similar adjustments myself.
It'd be stupid of me to walk through Braunstone 'gothed up' at half 2 in the morning. If wearing a long coat avoids stares/hassle/abuse and making sure I've got taxi-fare means I get back home ok, I'll do that.
In an ideal world I could walk around with multicoloured hair, neon clothing, make-up and NOT get abuse. It's not an ideal world, though, is it? No amount of asserting "my rights" as an individual will prevent me getting my head kicked in by some moron in some alley for "looking like a poofter" or whatever.
To be honest, I don't find it horrifying. I find it realistic. 100 years ago things weren't as good as they are now, in terms of freedom of choice (for everyone, not just women, gay-men, rise of teenagers/subcultures, etc etc), and I'd expect with the right efforts and work in another 100 years time things will hopefully have improved again too. I think I'm being realistic for *now*, and I guess if I really don't like it right here and now I can always move somewhere else.
I'll stand against and not propogate the bad aspects of this society, but I'm not going to run along with a target on my back either when I can sensibly do otherwise.If I get beaten up badly enough one day, I won't be around to vote in better law enforcement, donate money to charitable causes that support victims of child abuse, etc etc, or even, maybe, propagate LJ memes to change the world!
I fail to see how I'm massively curtailing my freedoms there. I'm keeping myself safe(not specifically from rape BTW).
I wouldn't expect a man to walk home alone at night either. Ironically I have male friends who, having gone out of their way to walk me safely home, have been beaten up on the way back to their house. I'd rather EVERONE got a licensed taxi home after a late night out.
The main issue that affects my social life is having to spend £5 on a taxi home, but as I stated, that had nothing to do with fear of rape, and everything to do with chavs chucking glass bottles out of a fast moving car at "fukiing goffiks".
The degree to which a strong, confident woman has to curtail her life
It's got nothing to do with my gender. I'd give the same advice to men. I wouldn't not do something I want to, but I'd always make sure I was ok, same reason that I lock my front door when I go out, or do you think we should all leave our front doors open because people shouldn't steal, and it's their fault for being theives?
I dunno I'm the type of bloke that believes in standing on the outside of the path when walking with children, so that if a car comes off the road I'm more likely to get hit first. I'd also teach a child not to walk near the edge of the pavement. Yes, cars should stay on the road, and people shouldn't ever get drunk or pass out and come off onto the pavement... but it can and does happen and I'd seek to minimise that risk.
And yes, it doesn't make it 'safe' as if nothing will happen, in my example there, a car could still come out of a driveway. You shouldn't stop looking out for yourself just because things should be better than they are though.
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Thank you!!
Exactly my point.
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Whereas with rape, if while doing something perfectly legal and inherently non-dangerous (wearing a short skirt, flirting, drinking) you get raped, you could still be blamed.
There's nothing wrong with walking on the pavement, and I'm not going to stop walking on the pavement for fear of a car hitting me. Better to advocate safer driving, no?
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Unravelling my original point here, the meme suggests women shouldn't take care of themselves or shouldn't be advised to. I think personally think that's a bit of a blazé outlook.
To be honest I don't think broadcasting like this on LJ really helps at all, except for people who are pretty much like minded on the core issues by default (there's a reason people add each other as friends) winding up splitting hairs and semantics.
I'll stay as I was I think, unaffected by this meme, and I'll continue to look out for people, stay careful. I'll fight for the better world by my actions, and by not tolerating the problems. You might not be able to see the implications I did, I guess we have different understandings of sexism and equality.
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Instead, we should advise women to wear longer skirts, because God knows those crucial inches are the difference between a man being a rapist and a nice guy.
The meme is sayin 'some men rape. how women behave will not affect whether they are raped'
The contrary point appears to be 'a women acting incorrectly can make a perfectly normal man into a rapist'
I think point two is much more denigratory towards men, frankly.
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By extension, would it therefore be right to say "Do not bomb us when we are walking down the street", etc etc, and finish with "Tell every muslim you know." ? Because *some* muslims might potentially be thinking of bombing British people?
That is where I have a problem with the sexism in the meme. If it did actually say "some men", if it was more specific about the point it was trying to make instead of just piling on emotion and creating a bandwagon for people to LJ about, then I think I'd actually be in full support of it. The actual point about being against these sortof attitudes in society, I do agree with.
I've been arguing this elsewhere, and really, it's probably pointless. I'd never advise women 'wear longer skirts' or not-flirt-ever or whatever. I'd simply advise them, the same as I'd advise blokes, to exercise caution. Not everyone can be trusted, that unfortunately is the truth about society as a whole.
I would say it might not be sensible to wear a short skirt out without a coat this time of year though, the amount of casualities we have on NYE and Christmas time due to hypothermia and stuff because people really don't think about what they're wearing sometimes is really very silly!! But again, like most of the semantics and metaphores being debated here, that's probably a separate issue?
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Yes, it generalizes, but all women are potential victims of rape, and - please read this with due care and attention - all men are potential rapists. In the sense that if you are walking home at night and walking about ten feet behind a woman you don't know, from her perspective, you could be a rapist. If you're alone on the top deck of a bus with a women, for her, you could be a rapist.
So in a sense, every man is a potential rapist for the majority of women.
And that's horrible! If all the men who believed rape was wrong did go about saying 'rape is horrible, it's a violation, I want everyone to know this' if they did say it to their sons and godsons and friends, then maybe it would sink in.
Because it's easy to say 'my sons would not rape'. How many people have said that, compared to those who have said 'well actually, I did think he was a rapist type'. 80,000 women a year are raped. Turn that around, 80,000 men rape a year. (Yes, some men commit more than one rape. They're loose figures.) Odds are, you do know, somewhere, casually, someone who has raped. You almost certainly know someone who's been raped.
I'd say avoiding hypothermia is a separate issue, yeah. ;)
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Neither of us would say it's OK to be raped, or that the woman is at fault, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take measures to put yourself at less risk.
Looking both ways before you cross the road won't STOP you getting hit by a car, but it will REDUCE the chance of it.
A few seconds thought about the fact that the world isn't a safe place (men AND women) will put you at much less risk of rape, assault, mugging, abuse etc. You can't stop it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't bother trying to.
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I've seen you quite drunk, that puts you in danger. Stop it.
You'll be safer if you don't walk home alone, I know you've been hassled before so you know it's dangerous.
Yup, I've helped there, and I bet it wasn't patronising at all!
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And for the record...................
*I usually wear stuff under a corset if I'm out in town and not going directly to somewhere. I WOULDN'T wear it to a club where I didn't know the attitudes of the clientele and staff.
I wouldn't wear what I've worn to Carnival Of Souls at Ret or any other general goth/alt night, and I wouldn't wear the kind of thing I'd wear there in a non-alt venue. I did it once(twice if you include Wendyhouse), I got chavs groping me, and treating me like piece of meat. Other girls didn't seem bothered by it, so I suppose the guys think it's OK.
In case you never noticed I allways have a big top or coat that I'm wearing when I arrive and leave clubs, especially if I'm wearing OTT stuff
*Yes I do get drunk, when I'm out with friends, and I never get so drunk I couldn't say "no", shout for help, punch or bite someone if I got into trouble. My friends look out for me, just like I hope they know I look out for them.
*I did sometimes walk home alone(through very well lit and busy places, always walking facing oncoming traffic, and in shoes I could run/kick like fuck in if needs be), foolish I know, and after getting a bottle thrown at me I stopped. If I haven't got enough money for a taxi home now, I don't go out.
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It'd be stupid of me to walk through Braunstone 'gothed up' at half 2 in the morning. If wearing a long coat avoids stares/hassle/abuse and making sure I've got taxi-fare means I get back home ok, I'll do that.
In an ideal world I could walk around with multicoloured hair, neon clothing, make-up and NOT get abuse. It's not an ideal world, though, is it? No amount of asserting "my rights" as an individual will prevent me getting my head kicked in by some moron in some alley for "looking like a poofter" or whatever.
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I'll stand against and not propogate the bad aspects of this society, but I'm not going to run along with a target on my back either when I can sensibly do otherwise.If I get beaten up badly enough one day, I won't be around to vote in better law enforcement, donate money to charitable causes that support victims of child abuse, etc etc, or even, maybe, propagate LJ memes to change the world!
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I wouldn't expect a man to walk home alone at night either. Ironically I have male friends who, having gone out of their way to walk me safely home, have been beaten up on the way back to their house. I'd rather EVERONE got a licensed taxi home after a late night out.
The main issue that affects my social life is having to spend £5 on a taxi home, but as I stated, that had nothing to do with fear of rape, and everything to do with chavs chucking glass bottles out of a fast moving car at "fukiing goffiks".
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It's got nothing to do with my gender.
I'd give the same advice to men.
I wouldn't not do something I want to, but I'd always make sure I was ok, same reason that I lock my front door when I go out, or do you think we should all leave our front doors open because people shouldn't steal, and it's their fault for being theives?
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