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On that lost post - I forgot to mention, I will set comments to auto-screen, so only i can see them - if you have a guess, but are unsure of spelling or something, you can message me there and i can answer without giving too much away to others.
Oh, and DON'T USE MY JOURNAL AS A PLACE TO TAKE FIGHTS FROM COMMUNITIES.
Oh, and DON'T USE MY JOURNAL AS A PLACE TO TAKE FIGHTS FROM COMMUNITIES.
2) You failed to understand the basic logic problem in the contradiction between human morality and will, if created by god, and hell. If you honestly feel that someone should be tortured eternally for being unable to believe in something that is unproven, then you are a sick sociopath.
3) After claiming that you "aren't like those other hateful christians who look down on everyone", you had the sick gall to say "Those that don't seek any sort of god have either found a god (themselves) or are walking around as people half-dead for lack of hope. "
I do not take to religious folks having the arrogance to look down upon us atheists as "half dead for lack of hope" while claiming how they're really so kind and loving and 'not like those mean christian types'.
It is both sick and arrogant to assume that anyone who doesn't buy into your fairy tale is lesser, is 'half dead for lack of hope'. How dare you fucking judge us, after sitting there trying to claim that you're not like the Christians who look to oppress?
Your hypocrisy saddens me. But what saddens me more is that it does not shock or surprise me. I knew that you could not, deep down, have the decency you claimed to.
Much as you have a hollow claim to truth and morality, you have a hollow claim to decency and equality.
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Sorry to have troubled you; never imagined my words could be misunderstood so greatly.
I want so much to try to explain further, but I'm afraid only more misunderstanding can arise from anything I say, given that your perception of me is colored both by your previous experiences with those who share beliefs similar to my own as well as things that I've said that maybe were not so wise to say.
I am really, really, and truly sorry that I offended you. I wish I could tell you (and you believe me) that I don't look down on you, that I respect you for your keen intelligence and your active interest in society.
Fare thee well; I really want the best for you, whatever best you choose, in this life or the next.
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You know I can't believe that. You said clearly that all who aren't filled with spiritual searching are either self-absorbed hedonists or 'half-dead' inside. That's looking down on people. That's assuming that non-spiritual people cannot be either unhappy shells or anything-goes amoral aesthetics. You consider them lesser. How is that not 'looking down' on them?
that I respect you for your keen intelligence and your active interest in society.
And I thank you. But I also wish both that you used the intelligence you really had instead of falling back on faith and never questioning... and that you realized an active interest in society. Remember, sometimes it's just as important to vote against the greater evil as it is to vote for the lesser. In a two-dog race, a vote not cast is a vote thrown away, but it also counts to help the winner when you could hinder him.
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I believe that people are born searching for something. Some for truth, some for happiness, some for justice, some for understanding. None of these things that people search for is inherently worse than any other, and the list I made is by no means exhaustive.
When I say that those without God have done one of two things, the two things might be better understood as 'found something in place of God' or 'never found anything.'
Those who believe that their search for whatever their whole being cries out for is over, they have found some sort of god--something to live for, something that defines them. Many of these things are really good things. My biggest mistake in that statment was assuming that whoever had not found God had made themselves into a god. This isn't true, and I'm sorry for my lapse in logic; I had forgotten of other cultures, who have indeed found other gods to worship.
Those who have not found what their soul is crying out for are indeed hopeless. They seek fulfillment in things that they already know will not sustain them. Drugs, sex, money, fame... the list is potentially endless.
It is my personal belief that only God is the solution to what people seek, for all the things we seek for are found in Him. Another tragic mistake of mine, to make such a statement thinking that it would be taken in light of what I've already said I believe. While I don't think one can reasonably argue that people seek for things, and that those who find them are content and those who don't find them are not, I take no issue with someone telling me I'm wrong about what exactly or who exactly fulfills this need.
I do hope that cleared things up a bit.
I also wish both that you used the intelligence you really had instead of falling back on faith and never questioning... and that you realized an active interest in society.
Wishes granted. =) You have spurred me towards more questioning, reminiscent of my first year or two of faith in Christ. I've indeed slacked off quite a bit on taking verses that I find confusing or contradictory to who I know God to be and not resting until I've reconciled them with the rest of Scripture. While faith is very personal and it hurts no one for me to believe that God exists (though some might call me silly), Christians as a group have done quite a bit of damage and I must not blindly follow them, or even their God. Childlike faith, for sure, but not blind faith. I believe that if there is a God, that God must naturally be higher than us in order to create us, and therefore I can't expect to necessarily understand Him completely; however, it is indeed a suspension of logic and reason to accept anything He says without question. Even people in the Bible questioned God, and their questions were not silenced until He revealed Himself to them. You have reminded me of something I'd forgotten after four years of resting my butt in a comfy church pew: that true revelation does not come unless we question God relentlessly. Could explain why my faith has grown a tad bit weaker over the years.
And next time we have a chance to vote, I will vote. Promise.
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What people are searching for is not (if they find it) what becomes their god. It is the drive that would naturally spur them on to finding god if they so chose to work along that line. I wasn't sure if I explained that well enough, and I didn't want to assume I'd be understood.
"God" would be what we look to for self-definition and world-definition. Many people look to themselves for define themselves and the world around them. Others look to other gods.
Okay, maybe now I can get some sleep. I have to be at work in five hours. =P
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Your belief does not make it proven so.
Some for truth, some for happiness, some for justice, some for understanding. None of these things that people search for is inherently worse than any other, and the list I made is by no means exhaustive.
But if what someone is born searching is, say, Logic, and that prevents them from being able to believe in your god, they get to be tortured in hell forever. Nice. Real pal, your god.
When I say that those without God have done one of two things, the two things might be better understood as 'found something in place of God' or 'never found anything.'
That is a better way to put it. But it still assumes that humans need a god, your god, period. And that assumption is stupid.
Those who believe that their search for whatever their whole being cries out for is over, they have found some sort of god--something to live for, something that defines them. Many of these things are really good things.
but, still, eternal torture... no matter how kind, caring, nice, helpful, charitable you are... unless you give some bully character an ego stroke, you get burned in hell forever. Isn't that nice? It's not about how good you are, it's only about whether or not you get on your knees and suck it for god. Cuz he's an ego whore.
My biggest mistake in that statment was assuming that whoever had not found God had made themselves into a god.
That was certainly one of the mistakes. It's the same sort of smug language that the new Pope used to decry 'secularism' as 'moral relativism'. He's an asshole.
This isn't true, and I'm sorry for my lapse in logic; I had forgotten of other cultures, who have indeed found other gods to worship.
Or, rather, had them before your god was even popular in the world. Didn't you ever wonder why other cultures had no record of your god until Europeans or Jews from the middle east took their religion there? Did you come up with some excuse like "oh, they buried all knowledge, they used to worship Yahweh too, but then Satan blinded them and made up their other gods..."? Or did you realize that your religion only ever came from one place on earth, and your god never spoke to the other lands?
Those who have not found what their soul is crying out for are indeed hopeless. They seek fulfillment in things that they already know will not sustain them. Drugs, sex, money, fame... the list is potentially endless.
Apart from the fact that souls are not proven to exist, your point is not invalid.
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Your personal belief is not proof; unfortunately, your fellow beleivers are so convinced of their ways, that they have in the past slaughtered untold numbers of people who disagreed with them and refused to let Christianity be made law. They will likely do that again one day.
You know, before we started the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, people in power yelled and screamed alot about 'sharia', and how it was bad. Sharia is the Muslim religious law, which makes all public life in a Muslim country forced under Muslim religious law, even those who aren't Muslim. Drink wine? It's against Islam. Get stoned to death by a mob. Steal something? Sure, it's against property law, but more importantly, sharia. Get your hands cut off by a sword. Let your daughter out in public without a veil? She'll be murdered for her sin.
And your Christian fellows want this in America, with THEIR religion. They say our nation is supposed to be Christian ruled, that we were founded for their religion, and all this shit. Well, the men who founded America may have been Europeans from Christian backgrounds, but not all of them were religious. They were all white, though, should we "go back to the traditional ways" and say only white men can vote?
Another tragic mistake of mine, to make such a statement thinking that it would be taken in light of what I've already said I believe.
Understood.
While I don't think one can reasonably argue that people seek for things, and that those who find them are content and those who don't find them are not, I
On the contrary. One can indeed argue that, without needing to be religious to do so. One can note intent of human goals and desires from philosophical, cultural, and psychological standpoints.
take no issue with someone telling me I'm wrong about what exactly or who exactly fulfills this need.
You say you take no issue of it, but you do maintain that everyone else is wrong because your god is the only truth, no?
I do hope that cleared things up a bit.
A *bit*, yes. Thank you for the discussion.
Wishes granted. =) You have spurred me towards more questioning,
Then Halleluiah, you're unbanned. That's the WHOLE POINT OF THE GROUP. To realize that FAITH must be QUESTIONED. I'm proud of you.
reminiscent of my first year or two of faith in Christ. I've indeed slacked off quite a bit on taking verses that I find confusing or contradictory to who I know God to be and not resting until I've reconciled them with the rest of Scripture. While faith is very personal and it hurts no one for me to believe that God exists (though some might call me silly),
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Mm-hmm. This I know. I've said numerous times that I don't have proof, only the completely unscientific evidence of my testimony.
Hmmm... I've always known that faith must be questioned. Before stumbling upon this community, however, I'd let myself get comfortable in my beliefs and forgot the importance of questioning. And if I ever gave the impression that I was 100% sure about any of this, I'm really sorry. I'm willing to bet my life and whatever comes after it that this God I've learned about is the only God there is. I am not willing to bet anyone else's life or even happiness on this belief of mine. If it makes a person very unhappy for me to tell them about my God, I will stop, because I realize that however deeply I believe, I could still in the end be wrong. If the god of someone else is really the one true God, I take the same stand as you: I would rather go to hell than worship this other god. It would not surprise me terribly to discover that I have some mild kind of pyschosis (this kind of thing runs in my family) that is to blame for my 'hearing' God and feeling His presence. But I can't risk trusting this; if indeed this God I love and live for is the true God, I don't think I could stand myself if I knew that I kept Him from anybody. While I do not support forcing anything on anybody, I am compelled to tell anybody and everybody about my God, on the off chance that He is real and that hell does exist.
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It hurts no one for you to believe, that's correct.
Until your faith is applied to others unfairly. If you begin to assume that your faith must be applied to everyone as it is to you, THEN it begins to hurt others, by the actions that come out of it. Think about extremist religious politicians who think that their religion should be made law. Think about extremist religious terrorists who think that their religion gives them the right to kill 'infidels'. Think about the religious American voter who thinks that their Biblical view of right and wrong means that they should vote to make sure gay people can't get domestic partnerships. Think about the pharmacist who refuses to fill a prescription for the "Day After Pill" to a rape victim because he believes abortion is murder.
See? It doesn't hurt anyone if you believe in God - as long as you keep it to yourself.
Unfortunately, you and I know that Christianity doesn't work that way. It wants everyone else to be forced to join; if they don't, of course, it's OK to think of them as lesser beings, as heathen scum. It's OK to imagine them being tortured for disagreeing - it's OK to mentally write them off and treat them like shit.
That's religion.
Christians as a group have done quite a bit of damage and I must not blindly follow them, or even their God. Childlike faith, for sure, but not blind faith.
Why faith and not proof? Childlike faith is an odd thing, too. Even as a child I knew that Santa Claus was illogical, and soon stopped having faith in him.
I believe that if there is a God, that God must naturally be higher than us in order to create us, and therefore I can't expect to necessarily understand Him completely; however, it is indeed a suspension of logic and reason to accept anything He says without question.
Amen. A-fucking-Men. You have at last understood the reasoning behing the group ProveYourGod.
Even people in the Bible questioned God, and their questions were not silenced until He revealed Himself to them. You have reminded me of something I'd forgotten after four years of resting my butt in a comfy church pew: that true revelation does not come unless we question God relentlessly. Could explain why my faith has grown a tad bit weaker over the years.
Could explain why many people question God and find that after enough questions, god stops needing to be there. Do you really think none of us atheists came from religious families?
And next time we have a chance to vote, I will vote. Promise.
When I started reading this thread, I doubted you on that. Now, I think you mean it.
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Here's what modern American Christians are up to:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/04/19/national/w111447D80.DTL
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aJGrWeqv.cFQ&refer=us
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/15/politics/15judges.html?hp&ex=1113624000&en=0b42a55582cd9ab5&ei=5094&partner=homepage
For that matter, the pope:
http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus
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