Words like bullets

[abomvubuso]

A lot of ink has been spilled over the Israeli-Turkish scandal in the wake of the Israeli raid on the flotilla. One thing keeps getting repeated: "Nothing will be the same any more". That was repeated by the Turkish PM Erdogan himself, as well. I think his words summarise the situation in the Middle East very properly. And things are of course much

Comments

[tcpip]

Don't you think that would cause even more problems?

Then again... USS Liberty. I suppose if you can get away with that you can get away with anything.

[tcpip]

A blockade that is a breach of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention and the 1977 amendment on the basis of the suffering it is causing harm to civilians and is collective punishment?

A blockade which the United Nations in Gaza, John Ging, has publicly called on the international community to defy?

That's a blockade that's worthy of breaching.

[tcpip]

OK, I get where you're coming from. Mind you, such proclamations are usually presented at the most extreme cases with plenty of leeway from the ambit claim below.

And it'll never look good enforcing blockades in international waters. Just look at Australia's implementation of refugee policies eight or so years ago..

[meus_ovatio]

When sanctions are passed by the UN, sanctions which have historically proven to "punish the general populace", are they subject to the same challenge? Or are sanctions allowed because they officially allow for "humanitarian aid"? If the UN can slide by claiming the allowance of humanitarian aid, no matter how insufficient in fact, can the UN start trying to challenge Israel on this point?

[tcpip]

My previous comments still stand; the wrongness of the act is because it is collective punishment and injurious to civilians. This would go for sanctions imposed by Israel, or - as I assume you are referring to - Iraq, which were also subject to legitimate criticism.

[meus_ovatio]

Why does international law get so much more respect than regular, normal, state law? I mean, we make a cause out of fighting laws. The "it's illegal argument" doesn't really ring with me.

[tcpip]

I am more arguing that it is wrong because it harms civilians and is based on collective punishment, not that because it is illegal. I don't follow a moral justification law qua law.

This said, international law does have a criteria above national law simply because it requires sovereign actors to come to an agreement, which is always more challenging than a single assertion. And we can note that Israel is a signatory to the Geneva convention.

[meus_ovatio]

So does this make blockades illegal, in principle? Or just this blockade? Mind you, I don't really support the blockade or have a strong position on it either way. I'm just wondering if this is one of those arguments that "prove too much".

[tcpip]

I don't think it is an issue of a blockade per se, but rather what is blockaded and the effects on the general population. After all, every country's customs is a type of blockade. Fruit is "blockaded" at some state borders in Australia.

[htpcl]

So a state blocks access to its own territory. What does international law say about that, and when do we stop caring about international law? When it suits our interests? I'm not saying it's a just blockade, but it does exist, so what do we do about it?

[tcpip]

De jure it's not their territory. Nobody, not even Israel (afiak) makes that claim. Of course de facto it's a different matter; many supporters of the one-state solution argue that the occupied territories are akin to the bantustans of the old South African regime.

What does one do about it? Well, the person who originated the idea, Michael Shaik, I suspect would say "send more boats"!

[woopflying]

Gaza blockade: Iran offers escort to next aid convoy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy

[tcpip]

Yes, I just read that on the abc.net.au

Should be interesting what happens next.