China Captured U.S. Underwater Drone

[debunkgpolitics]

Originally posted by debunkgpolitics at China Captured U.S. Underwater Drone
The Economist (issue 12/24/2016-1/6/2017, page 53

Comments

[dreamville_bg]

Question. So what's a US drone doing so far away from US shores, and under China's nose? Are there any Chinese drones in the Pacific, say, a few hundred km away from California? How would the US public react if there were any?

I know. Those are more than one question, and I'm probably just playing devil's advocate. But if we answer these, perhaps we'd at least partially know why the Chinese behaved the way they did.

[mikeyxw]

A few hundred km would be no issue at all. Within 12 nautical miles, my guess is that it'd be the same reaction as when China's navy passed within 12 nautical miles of Alaska when Pres. Obama was visiting the state, which was a bit of a shrug.

As long as the drone wasn't exploring for oil or doing any fishing, it was likely not violating any laws.

[dreamville_bg]

"Likely"?

Do you have laws against trespassing in the US? Do you just "shrug off" violations of those laws?

[mikeyxw]

We certainly do, and if China had illegally entered our waters, I expect there would be some consequences.

However, innocent passage is allowed even within the 12 mile limit that defines territorial waters and freedom on navigation is allowed outside of it. The beef China has with the freedom of navigation operations in the South China Sea is that the US calls them freedom of navigation and China thinks of them as innocent passage.

[policraticus]

International waters are international, he said tautologically.

I can't speak directly to any "drones," but the Chinese fishing fleet circumnavigates the globe and often acts in ways that we find reprehensible just outside the territorial waters of the US. My guess is that the US and Canadian fishing industry would much prefer fleets of Chinese drones to thier factory ships sweeping the seas clean.

[dreamville_bg]

And where does the US fleet of spy drones rank in that spectrum of preferences?

[policraticus]

Before the fish eradicating Chinese fleet? I thought I made that pretty clear.

FWIW, to be a spy drone, the sub in question would have to be in another country's territorial waters. In international waters, there is no expectation of privacy. In that case "spying" just becomes a loaded word for "looking."

[dreamville_bg]

I'm specifically asking you about the fleet of flying spy drones.

[policraticus]

i thought we were talking only swimming drones.

::shrugs::

We have satellites. Flying through space. We have manned reconnaissance planes that can side-eye pretty much everywhere near the coast from 100 miles offshore. The Chinese snagged one of those at the beginning of G W Bush's administration after one of their interceptors bumped into it and forced it to land in Chinese territory. Given these tools, and other remote sensing technology in our arsenal, I think that as a strategic issue, drones are pretty inconsequential.

As a tactical tool, I think they are awesome, because they give US forces a better understanding of the enemy's deployment in real time. But we really weren't talking about that.

If you are backhand asking me about the use of drone weapon systems, like the Predator, or Reaper, I'd say they are a net benefit. Like any weapon system, they are only as good as the people directing them.

[dreamville_bg]

I'm talking about all spy technology.

[policraticus]

I don't really know what I'm supposed to be addressing? The morality of spying? The meaning of spying? The difference between various spy technology?

Spying is really mostly about understanding the enemy, or just the other. Countries have an interest in knowing about other countries and understanding their motivations and capabilities. To this end they are going to use whatever technology or strategy they can to learn as much as they can, short of provoking hostilities. That includes spying. It seems like such a commonplace thing. You think the US doesn't know that countries like Russia or China spy on them?

[johnny9fingers]

Indeed.
We spy on our enemies, we spy on our friends, and we spy on ourselves. We have to keep those dodgy blighters busy doing something, and given their natures and talents, spying is probably the least damaging aspect of what they are geared up to do.

I am going to have to leave shedloads of porn in my web-browser though. I may as well tell the guardians who guard us (I too love tautology) what I think of some of their actions, even if only obliquely.

[policraticus]

We spy on our enemies, we spy on our friends, and we spy on ourselves.

Why not just say, We try to understand the world and the people in it? I'm not sure what is so dodgy about that.

The only thing leaving shedloads of porn will tell our custodes, obliquely or otherwise, is that you are exactly like everyone else. Porn is the best way to blend in. It is the camouflage of the internets.