Persecuting headgear
What's a burqa, and does it have a place in our place? That's the question that a number of European societies have been pondering about for some time. In Germany for example, some province ministers of the interior have decided to ban the controversial headgear as part of the measures to counter Islamic radicalization. Other countries already have
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Image reposted from yes_justice's from this politicartoons post here: http://politicartoons.livejournal.com/4932161.html
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Would there be consequences for the the woman on the left if she decides to bathe without that suit?
If you, or whoever originally came up with this picture, can find the answers to the above two questions on their own, then they'd know where the problem some people are having with this issue, is coming from.
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The woman... maybe yes and maybe no.
I highly suspect that some French Muslim women are being forced to cover up... but the idea that they all are seems mistaken. Whenever I've gone looking for women who wear these kinds of clothes and have talked about it in front of a camera, I tend to leave feeling assured that, yes, some women do choose these style of fashion (of course, the ones who aren't choosing it are unlikely to be easily found to talk about it).
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I can understand why burqas and the niqaab are perceived as extreme... but is it that extreme to cover your hair?
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But... more to the point... this 'Muslim women are too oppressed to make their own choices' attitude just doesn't cohere with what I hear when I listen to Muslim women talk about their choices.
It's been quite a few years since I last made an active effort to seek out videos of Muslim women talking about why they wear various forms of covering, but I think that's an important thing for anyone talking on this debate to do; listen to the people whose lives we are talking about (see also: sex workers)
It's definitely not the case that I agreed with everything I found; it's not at all a surprise to find that many of these women have religiously conservative views (especially regarding 'modesty' and sexual expression) that clash with my own liberalism and secularism.... but even in those cases it would seem deeply patronising to pretend that these women only disagree with my values because they're oppressed, which is a conceit that would not seem likely to be taken seriously when talking to similarly illiberal non-Muslims.
And then there are the occasions where they say something that I understand and sympathise with. For example, one thing that I have seen across multiple videos is that idea that hijab (and other coverings) help escape cultural body and beauty standards and help evade sexual objectification for women... and I can see that... just as wearing a bikini might feel liberating for someone raised in a religiously conservative society, wearing a burkini might just feel liberating for someone who is sick of being judged by their appearance.
For others, hijab is exactly what some French politicians think it is; a public statement of Muslim identity... a 'marker of difference'. As scary as this is for some French politicians, that seems fine to me; I am okay with people being open about their differences. The freedom to be different is a vital and defining part of a liberal society.
Here are two that I just found and watched after googling 'why I wear hijab':
TED Talk - Why I Wear Hijab
A Feminist's Choice to Wear the Hijab
Again, it's not about whether I agree with every individual thing they've said... it's about recognising that my opinions on what any woman wears has less weight than that woman's opinion on what she wears. To dismiss their views in favour of my own would be extremely patronising and paternalistic. These women are not brainwashed automatons; they're women who are just as capable of thinking rationally about their life choices in the same way that everyone is.
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And I don't know why you keep focusing on covering the hair, whereas we've got a much bigger issue on our hands, namely covering the entire face. Why do you keep skipping that part?
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This thread started from an image of a burkini, which does not cover the face.
The burkini has been banned on several beaches in France.
This is in the British news as of today:
"I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.” A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying." French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
Attempts to restrict the clothing options of Muslim women have often been justified by reference to the way that the face is covered by both Niqaab and Burqa, but hostility to Muslim dress extends far beyond that... to both the burkini and hijab (neither of which cover the face).
French politicians are often fairly open about this... this isn't about a security problem (a woman visiting the beach in a burkini is not a security threat)... this is about French culture being hostile to 'public expressions of religion'.
"Using language similar to the bans imposed in a string of other resorts on the French Riviera, the city barred clothing that “overtly manifests adherence to a religion at a time when France and places of worship are the target of terrorist attacks”." Nice becomes latest French city to impose burkini ban
It horrifies me especially because I am a secularist... I believe that the state should restrict itself to making laws on purely secular grounds... but French secularists have taken this to mean that the state should impose a secular public identity on it's citizens, which is not what I have ever taken 'separation of Church and State' to mean.
Similar calls for bans have taken place in the UK but not (so far) gained enough support to make it into law. With rising anti-Islam sentiment, this may change.
This is a video of a British MP, who proposed a Burkha ban back in 2010, talking to women in Niqaab about their choice of clothing: Burka ban' MP meets veiled women in Whitechapel
In this case, we are talking about women who wear more than just hijab and cover their face as well as their hair, but even there it is hard to believe that the government would be doing them any favours by banning their choice of clothes.
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This post also addressed the niqab and burqa, which both do.
a woman visiting the beach in a burkini is not a security threat
Oh really?? Tell this to the victims of dozens of Boko Haram attacks, which have exclusively used previously captured women, fully covered, to blow themselves up in the middle of crowds.
We're going in circles at this point. You keep repeating the same arguments over and over, only in a different form each time. So far you've exclusively spoken about what's NOT right with the laws banning certain types of clothing. You've said little to nothing on the possible better solutions to the problem. What, in fact, is your suggestion? You've already said several times that you recognize it as a serious problem - so what's the better approach if banning stuff really sucks this much? Come on, let's be constructive, right?
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I've talked about them too... but I've also talked about the burkini, which is appropriate for the reasons I said (you asked me to explain).
"a woman visiting the beach in a burkini is not a security threat
Oh really?? Tell this to the victims of dozens of Boko Haram attacks, which have exclusively used previously captured women, fully covered, to blow themselves up in the middle of crowds."
I don't think that article is quite the knock-down that you presented it as.
There's a photo of a woman in a hijab hiding a bomb under a jacket. The hijab is doing nothing to hide the bomb and jackets haven't been banned in France.
The text doesn't seem to be along similar lines... If you think that there's a relevant section of the text that I've missed, can you please quote it?
There is no mention of burkinis on the entire page, which is surely unsurprising as beach wear is probably not going to be a terrorist's first choice of clothing to hide bombs under (yeah, the burkini is baggier than any standard swimwear... but a baggy coat is surely the way to go?)
"You've said little to nothing on the possible better solutions to the problem. What, in fact, is your suggestion?"
Rejecting a proposed solution for not working is usually easier than proposing an alternative working solution and that is definitely the case here.... although that doesn't mean that the non-working solution should be adopted.
I have however made some comment on the separate topic of what can be done to prevent abuse in family units... I pointed out three very general areas for action in this comment.
It also occurred to me that laws governing these issues already exist, and I found a document detailing how the UK government currently (attempts to) address these kinds of issues, which I posted a link to over here
Obviously, I reject the idea of creating laws that tell women what they can and can't wear... but if anyone has any suggestions that I've not thought of then I'd be interested to hear about them....
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It's an interesting reminder that there are non-religious reasons to want to cover your skin at the beach, which is presumably what is driving non-muslim sales of the burkini and the reason why non-Muslims such as Nigella Lawson have been pictured wearing it.
Double-standards are always worth calling out... but it's important to remind ourselves that the problem is the double-standard itself. For example, double-standards regarding virginity and promiscuity should be called out... but that doesn't mean that we should shame women for choosing virginity or promiscuity. The choices are both fine; it's the pressure to make one choice or the other that is the problem.
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No, that's not what I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of an Arab guy spending time on the beach with his Arab wife and their Arab children, all the children and the man swimming in the sea topless, while Mrs Pious is dressed up like a tent. That's what I'm thinking of.
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Pffhahaha! Sorry, I know it's wrong, but I couldn't help it.....
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