Values? What values?

[ddstory]

Since we're about political populism this month, let's talk about values a little bit. This term which is most often used in the plural, and is being so overused in recent times for all sorts of occasions and purposes: from political debates to the regular Sunday sermon, from TV talk-shows to newspaper headlines. Some prefer to put some adjectives

Comments

[policraticus]

So what are these Western values that everyone keeps blabbering about?

Rule of Law (This is the bedrock. In my opinion. If you have a stable judicial system that can be trusted to act predictably and with consistency you are more than half way to being "Western." )
Individualism
Limited Government (A corollary to #'s 1 and 2)
Free Markets/Enterprise (This is the engine. In my opinion.)
Religious Tolerance/Secularism
Intellectual Freedom/Free Inquiry
Science/Technology/Industry
Affluence/Leisure
Military Power/.Aggression

There are probably more, but if you are talking about the values that define, in the broadest terms, what has become "The West" I think my list is at least a start. They are, for lack of a better term, Enlightenment Values. The application of each has been uneven over history, of course, and each has developed or matured over time at different rates, and some have ever been more honored in the breach, but if you want a snap shot of what sort of knits together and distinguishes "The West" from other global cultures I think this comes close. Not that any of these are unique or confined to "The West," but the more of them you embrace as a culture the more "Western" your culture looks from the outside, (cf. South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong).

[luzribeiro]

Limited Government

How limited? Like in the US, or like in the UK, or like in France? Or like in Sweden? Or maybe like in Singapore?

Military Power/.Aggression

Like in Russia?

Ps. You omitted "political correctness", "moral high horse" and "hypocrisy".

[policraticus]

How limited?

It's a sliding scale. They all are. The more limited, the better, in my opinion, but the essence is that government is not totalitarian, it allows civil life to exist outside the scope of the state. There are places in civil life where the state has no cause or let.

Like in Russia?

Sure. I never said these were universal goods, or values that could not be turned to foolish or evil ends. Of course, I also said none of these were confined to the "West," so since Russia is failing currently to live up to any number of the other values I've mentioned, perhaps they are falling outside the parameters of the discussion.

"political correctness", "moral high horse" and "hypocrisy".

I admitted there are probably more. Although I think you could put those down to "Affluence" combining with "Toleration" and "Intellectual Freedom." Hypocrisy is a value found only in places where there are homo sapiens.

[luzribeiro]

The more limited, the better, in my opinion

Most of Europe would beg to differ. As would Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and so on and so forth.

[policraticus]

That's why they make chocolate and vanilla. As I said, it is a sliding scale and it is also a "Western value" that people should be able organize society according to their own best judgment. Nevertheless, Australia, New Zealand and Canada all have limited governments, even if they are less limited than I might propose. Of course, in my opinion the US government would be better were it more limited, as well.

[luzribeiro]

Isn't every society organized exactly the way it has meant for itself to be organized? It has been said here several times that every society gets exactly the rulers that it deserves. Including totalitarian and autocratic societies.

What I'm trying to achieve with these questions is to discern something that distinguishes "Westernness" from the "non-Westernness". At least in your mind.

[policraticus]

Yes. And ones that organize themselves according to these principles, among others, will more likely be "Western" in our modern sense, than not. Remember, Fascism, Monarchy, Communism... these were all "Western" ways to organize society. But in our modern sense, they did not embrace all what I've said distinguish "Western Values." They are, as it were, dead branches on the tree of civilization.

If you look at the US, Canada, Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, to varying degrees they all have societies that exhibit those "values" each in their own way and with their own emphasis. This isn't physics or chemistry. You aren't going to get hard and fast rules or laws here.

[ddstory]

Yes, but why "values"?

[policraticus]

I don't know. Because the word means, "principles or standards of behavior; one’s judgment of what is important in life?"

[ddstory]

Then why not "principles" or "standards"? "Way of life"? Why choose a term that bears materialist connotations (as in something whose value could be measured in money)?

[policraticus]

I don't think "values" in this context has a materialist connotation. This may just be a native English speaker's insight, but when I say, "he was raised with good values" it is not the same as "this washing machine is a good value." I think this is a question of the English language being slippery.

[Edit: You can use "principles" but that tends to connote a set of ideas that are more rigid. So, some parts of your "values" are "principles," but other things can also be included in "values", but be more negotiable. You can also use "standards" but that tends to seem prescriptive, "my principles lead me to maintain certain "standards", for example. "Way of Life" is clumsy, in my opinion and it also includes too much, it embraces all parts of a society and clouds the issue.]

[ddstory]

That's the thing with language. It could get fuzzy. Which makes the whole perpetual PC effort all the more futile.

[mahnmut]

Three words. White. Christian. Capitalist.

[mikeyxw]

Dunno, Japan and Taiwan are pretty Western these days and neither are the first two. Russia kinda meets all three, with enough corruption thrown in to warrant a third "C" but it certainly isn't Western.

[mahnmut]

Russia is a democracy? Who knew.

The Western model was imposed onto Japan, and was imported into Taiwan. Guess from where?

[policraticus]

White skin is accidental.

I do think that the West needed the ethical and philosophical foundation established in large part by Christianity, but I don't see that Christianity itself makes much difference to Western culture any more. It is baked in the cultural cake, certainly, but like vanilla, what it adds is subtle and hard to distinguish from Enlightenment, Pragmatism, Existentialism, or any number of other important intellectual movements.

I don't think capitalism, per se, is as important as free markets and competition. In any case, the only reason they work is the Rule of Law and the protection of private property. Without that, all that hard work and innovation is for nothing.