Affirmative action FTW

[luzribeiro]

Here's a terrible case for your review:

http://news.iafrica.com/sa/943006.html

"The Institute of Race Relations (IRR) has released a statement saying affirmative action kills babies. In the statement, it says race-based policies are being used as a veil to conceal corruption and incompetence and many vulnerable communities are paying a deadly

Comments

[luzribeiro]

I don't need anecdotes. All I need is statistics, economic data, election results, and current polls about the public's perception of their government.

Post-Mandela South Africa Is a Nation on Edge
http://www.thetelescopenews.com/index.php/africa/3451-post-mandela-south-africa-is-a-nation-on-edge.html
"Recent elections exposed a weakening ANC, with an embattled president and an economy no longer pre-eminent on the continent."

South Africa still a chronically racially divided nation, finds survey
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/06/south-africa-racially-divided-survey
"Reconciliation barometer poll finds 43% rarely or never speak to someone from another race, denting rainbow nation ideal"

South Africa to Vote for Zuma Even if They Don’t Like Him
http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/south-africa-to-vote-for-zuma-even-if-they-dont-like-him/
"South Africa is set to vote for The African National Congress party’s Jacob Zuma in his bid for re-election, even if they don’t like him. The ANC is said to be leading in the polls despite the widespread disapproval of president Jacob Zuma, amid ongoing complaints of corruption and inequality in the country."

Also, when white engineers kill babies by failing to clean the water, what is blamed?

Where are those white engineers? Are we discussing a hypothetical now?

Was the police force AA populated?

Hugely. The police force in rural areas of Gauteng is vastly affected by AA.

Would non-AA force behave differently?

Do I look like a clairvoyant to you? All I can say is that simple logic seems to suggest that incompetent people tend to do more fatal mistakes than competent people. There must be a reason that people are angry and protesting against corruption and incompetence all across the country, or am I just imagining things? And mind you, the majority of those expressing their disapproval are not white. They're black and coloureds because those are the ones who are the recipients of the bulk of the negative effects from failed policies.

Its so much easier to see the effects of Affirmative Action and ignore the effects of Apartheid.

Good thing that no one is doing that here. This is simultaneously a strawman and tu quoque. In any case, an attempt at diversion.

Do the AA for education and training, and then hire accordingly

Exactly. But nobody is doing that, are they?

engineering jobs need to be competence based

That has been my whole point right from the onset.

By definition, its fighting fire with fire.

Exactly. Now "We have an understanding" (Jacob Zuma's trademark words, btw).

More like Nairi and like mahnmut, btw, who's dedicated his life to empowering underprivileged poor people, finding them proper qualification and providing them with an opportunity to have a decent job and live a life of dignity. Good thing that there are plenty of people like that, who are not scared to say the truths right into the faces of those bloated corrupt bureaucrats in Pretoria.

[yes_justice]

I have stuff in the meat world to deal with this morning. Talk to you in a while.

[yes_justice]

I don't need anecdotes. All I need is statistics, economic data, election results, and current polls about the public's perception of their government.

Okay, thanks. There is more overview in those articles to digest. Will take me time.

The first one:

"The once hopeful post-colonialist story of South Africa is now battered by crime, poverty and HIV/AIDS, forcing an uncomfortable re-examination. "

It makes it sound like the starting point was more utopian than it was, ya know?

>> "Also, when white engineers kill babies by failing to clean the water, what is blamed?"
> Where are those white engineers? Are we discussing a hypothetical now?

Yes. When such things happen to white engineers stateside, we blame corruption, nepotism, profit over people, etc. When such things happen to black engineers, we blame AA, regardless white privilege can even lead to similar "promoting incompetence" results. My main point was that I still don't see the direct line between a failure to provide clean safe water and affirmative action from your example, but maybe there is a white sanitation engineer who lost that specific job to a black one and knows different. There's a phenomenon stateside where AA is blamed when black people don't install achieve instant parity with whites. "We wasted the college slot on him", etc. So, I worry the same thing happens there.

Do I look like a clairvoyant to you?

No, nothing like that, just that you drew a direct link between the actions of the police forces and AA, so you may have insight.

I'm suggesting, blindly, that there can be other factors which influenced that situation. AA didn't cause Sharpville for example. The implication was that competent police (ones not appointed via AA) would not massacre, so I asked if this was actually so.

All I can say is that simple logic seems to suggest that incompetent people tend to do more fatal mistakes than competent people.

Agreed. However can we directly link that incompetence to AA effects? Or is more going on here? Maybe the AA wasn't aggressive enough? Maybe you are a worse officer if you are worried about your parents well being more than someone whos parents are well off? If so, is it then fair to make direct comparisons?

Its difficult to measure these things. But dead babies from bad water seems a reasonable line to me, but will getting rid of AA solve that issue? Is that what is being proposed?

There must be a reason that people are angry and protesting against corruption and incompetence all across the country, or am I just imagining things?

I'm certain there are a multitude of reasons, AA not excluded.

And mind you, the majority of those expressing their disapproval are not white. They're black and coloureds because those are the ones who are the recipients of the bulk of the negative effects from failed policies.

What is the ANC's stranglehold on this population? That they support AA policy? What is their alternative?

[luzribeiro]

Of course there's always more factors than just one, and more is going on than mere AA. I never said otherwise. The culture of nepotism, cronyism and corruption runs deep in this society as well as other societies. And AA has only helped enhance that process rather than counter it. That's the whole point. AA is neither the root cause nor the panacea, but unless it's reviewed and modified, it'll only be helping the situation deteriorate more.

The ANC's alternative is ANC itself. A different ANC, the ANC of Mandela rather than Zuma, an ANC that truly provides opportunities for the people, rather than fortifying its political position by means of economic and social control, AA being one among those means.