Affirmative action FTW

[luzribeiro]

Here's a terrible case for your review:

http://news.iafrica.com/sa/943006.html

"The Institute of Race Relations (IRR) has released a statement saying affirmative action kills babies. In the statement, it says race-based policies are being used as a veil to conceal corruption and incompetence and many vulnerable communities are paying a deadly

Comments

[yes_justice]

"There is no doubt that the officials responsible for these deaths were appointed, at least in part, on grounds of race-based affirmative action and that a direct causal link therefore exists between the policy and the deaths."

Whites under apartheid never made engineering mistakes or had issues with contaminated water? Even after reading the article, I need a clearer line drawn between AA and bad water/dead babies. I'm thinking that the closer this is examined, the link to apartheid itself is strong than to the AA reaction to it.

But two decades have passed now, and apartheid can no longer serve as the sole excuse for our problems

There isn't a hard time line. Two decades is just one generation. Didn't it take way longer than that to create the problem? May take longer to fix it. Addressing the institutional and cultural issues may take longer than they took to create.

The fact is, consistently putting people into job positions which they cannot manage, puts pressure on the person themselves, and causes damage and even deaths in the process, like in this case.

A competent teacher can train competence. Those who know how to do it right should educate those who don't, like you said. How equal is the access to education and training? No one is born a competent engineer after all.

Or like in Marikana

Huh? The strike was due to incompetence? Incompetence of the mining conditions? Or the gunning people down part?

I'm sure that a nationwide mentorship program from 1994 would have empowered black South Africans properly, not just with money and status - and I'm sure our resident social worker(s) here would confirm that. The fact is, most people want to feel good and accomplished about what they do, and to deliver accordingly. So when they're given alms that they're taught to take for granted instead, naturally they will not deliver.

The former was not done enough, am told.

has become the new chain around black South Africa's neck - a chain of inferiority where no black person can be afforded the notion that they are worth what they are being paid or deserve their jobs on merit alone, but are to rely on their ethnic origin and the skin of their color instead.

Good thing that NEVER happens to white people. Who is working twice as hard to get 1/2 as far?

How do we educate people to the standards that our society and economy truly needs and deserves?

Improve access to education.

And omg, that documentary you linked. The woman adorned in jewels saying how uncomfortable Apartheid made her. Perhaps when she dug them from the earth herself? Just wow. Diamonds on the soles of her shoes indeed.

[luzribeiro]

Two decades is just one generation, and yet at least traces of improvement are to be expected, in case the effort is in the right direction. When there's no improvement but instead deterioration, then things must have been done the wrong way, no? I'm OK with a problem taking longer to fix, the real problem is that there's no signs that work is being done towards fixing it. And people all around the country have started realizing this, and are growing increasingly angry because of that.

Like I said above, AA should be about empowering people of socially and economically disadvantaged positions, not based on their racial or ethnic identity, or, worst of all, their political affiliation. Right now, the ANC has been using all the tools at its disposal to re-draw the political map, even resorting to population transferring into places where it still does not dominate (Western Cape), re-drawing the electoral districts, and all that kind of tactics, just to artificially grant themselves a better position on elections. They hold vast numbers of people and entire communities in complete dependency on their political will, essentially keeping them as feudal serfs with no prospects and no chances of social or job mobility, just for the sake of having obedient electorates in the most crucial areas (Gauteng for example). And AA is an integral part of that strategy.

Not the strike was due to incompetence, the police response was full of incompetence, and that cost human lives.

Improve access to education.

Absolutely. Good thing people like nairiporter above are doing their best in that respect.

I feel you about that woman in the film. John Pilger has risked a lot professionally to make that documentary and explain an inconvenient truth, that apartheid is very much alive and well today, and that things haven't changed as much as we might've hoped. There's still an elite clique holding the bulk of the national treasure and capital, and the same marginalized majority remains as marginalized as before, if not more. As for the AA policy, instead of serving the people and help solve this problem as it was supposed to, it has been misused by a corrupt political elite to exploit those people for its own political and economic gains.

Whatever they say, AA does remain racially based, and, given the fact that it's being misused to exploit millions of people of a particular ethnic group, it *is* racist.

[yes_justice]

at least traces of improvement are to be expected

(Consider what happened to the Native Americans in my country, some plants don't grow back.)

I'm sure you can find an good anecdote to counter your dead babies bad water one? Also, when white engineers kill babies by failing to clean the water, what is blamed?

Not the strike was due to incompetence, the police response was full of incompetence, and that cost human lives.

Was the police force AA populated? Would non-AA force behave differently? Forgive me, it was before I was born in a different country, I am ignorant.

Do the AA for education and training, and then hire accordingly. Its so much easier to see the micro effects of Affirmative Action while ignore the macro effects of Apartheid.

Whatever they say, AA does remain racially based, and, given the fact that it's being misused to exploit millions of people of a particular ethnic group, it *is* racist.

By definition, its fighting fire with fire.

On the whole, engineering jobs need to be competence based, I do believe this. Mother nature cares little for our petty differences, she'll kill us easier.

However, BEFORE we start identifying AA as the racist root cause, perhaps demonstrating that an equality of education, an equality of access, actually exists is valid. Judging from the video, South Africa is no where near there.

[luzribeiro]

I don't need anecdotes. All I need is statistics, economic data, election results, and current polls about the public's perception of their government.

Post-Mandela South Africa Is a Nation on Edge
http://www.thetelescopenews.com/index.php/africa/3451-post-mandela-south-africa-is-a-nation-on-edge.html
"Recent elections exposed a weakening ANC, with an embattled president and an economy no longer pre-eminent on the continent."

South Africa still a chronically racially divided nation, finds survey
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/06/south-africa-racially-divided-survey
"Reconciliation barometer poll finds 43% rarely or never speak to someone from another race, denting rainbow nation ideal"

South Africa to Vote for Zuma Even if They Don’t Like Him
http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/south-africa-to-vote-for-zuma-even-if-they-dont-like-him/
"South Africa is set to vote for The African National Congress party’s Jacob Zuma in his bid for re-election, even if they don’t like him. The ANC is said to be leading in the polls despite the widespread disapproval of president Jacob Zuma, amid ongoing complaints of corruption and inequality in the country."

Also, when white engineers kill babies by failing to clean the water, what is blamed?

Where are those white engineers? Are we discussing a hypothetical now?

Was the police force AA populated?

Hugely. The police force in rural areas of Gauteng is vastly affected by AA.

Would non-AA force behave differently?

Do I look like a clairvoyant to you? All I can say is that simple logic seems to suggest that incompetent people tend to do more fatal mistakes than competent people. There must be a reason that people are angry and protesting against corruption and incompetence all across the country, or am I just imagining things? And mind you, the majority of those expressing their disapproval are not white. They're black and coloureds because those are the ones who are the recipients of the bulk of the negative effects from failed policies.

Its so much easier to see the effects of Affirmative Action and ignore the effects of Apartheid.

Good thing that no one is doing that here. This is simultaneously a strawman and tu quoque. In any case, an attempt at diversion.

Do the AA for education and training, and then hire accordingly

Exactly. But nobody is doing that, are they?

engineering jobs need to be competence based

That has been my whole point right from the onset.

By definition, its fighting fire with fire.

Exactly. Now "We have an understanding" (Jacob Zuma's trademark words, btw).

More like Nairi and like mahnmut, btw, who's dedicated his life to empowering underprivileged poor people, finding them proper qualification and providing them with an opportunity to have a decent job and live a life of dignity. Good thing that there are plenty of people like that, who are not scared to say the truths right into the faces of those bloated corrupt bureaucrats in Pretoria.

[yes_justice]

I have stuff in the meat world to deal with this morning. Talk to you in a while.

[yes_justice]

I don't need anecdotes. All I need is statistics, economic data, election results, and current polls about the public's perception of their government.

Okay, thanks. There is more overview in those articles to digest. Will take me time.

The first one:

"The once hopeful post-colonialist story of South Africa is now battered by crime, poverty and HIV/AIDS, forcing an uncomfortable re-examination. "

It makes it sound like the starting point was more utopian than it was, ya know?

>> "Also, when white engineers kill babies by failing to clean the water, what is blamed?"
> Where are those white engineers? Are we discussing a hypothetical now?

Yes. When such things happen to white engineers stateside, we blame corruption, nepotism, profit over people, etc. When such things happen to black engineers, we blame AA, regardless white privilege can even lead to similar "promoting incompetence" results. My main point was that I still don't see the direct line between a failure to provide clean safe water and affirmative action from your example, but maybe there is a white sanitation engineer who lost that specific job to a black one and knows different. There's a phenomenon stateside where AA is blamed when black people don't install achieve instant parity with whites. "We wasted the college slot on him", etc. So, I worry the same thing happens there.

Do I look like a clairvoyant to you?

No, nothing like that, just that you drew a direct link between the actions of the police forces and AA, so you may have insight.

I'm suggesting, blindly, that there can be other factors which influenced that situation. AA didn't cause Sharpville for example. The implication was that competent police (ones not appointed via AA) would not massacre, so I asked if this was actually so.

All I can say is that simple logic seems to suggest that incompetent people tend to do more fatal mistakes than competent people.

Agreed. However can we directly link that incompetence to AA effects? Or is more going on here? Maybe the AA wasn't aggressive enough? Maybe you are a worse officer if you are worried about your parents well being more than someone whos parents are well off? If so, is it then fair to make direct comparisons?

Its difficult to measure these things. But dead babies from bad water seems a reasonable line to me, but will getting rid of AA solve that issue? Is that what is being proposed?

There must be a reason that people are angry and protesting against corruption and incompetence all across the country, or am I just imagining things?

I'm certain there are a multitude of reasons, AA not excluded.

And mind you, the majority of those expressing their disapproval are not white. They're black and coloureds because those are the ones who are the recipients of the bulk of the negative effects from failed policies.

What is the ANC's stranglehold on this population? That they support AA policy? What is their alternative?

[luzribeiro]

Of course there's always more factors than just one, and more is going on than mere AA. I never said otherwise. The culture of nepotism, cronyism and corruption runs deep in this society as well as other societies. And AA has only helped enhance that process rather than counter it. That's the whole point. AA is neither the root cause nor the panacea, but unless it's reviewed and modified, it'll only be helping the situation deteriorate more.

The ANC's alternative is ANC itself. A different ANC, the ANC of Mandela rather than Zuma, an ANC that truly provides opportunities for the people, rather than fortifying its political position by means of economic and social control, AA being one among those means.

[yes_justice]

Good thing people like nairiporter above are doing their best in that respect.

PS: Yes, more like her please!