The Odessa fire

[luzribeiro]

Anyone surprised that there isn't much news of this, and the little that's reported at all, mostly fails to mention the people surrounded and burned alive were pro-Russians? -->

The other day, dozens of pro-Russian protesters retreated to a Trade Union building from a mob of armed right-wing extremists, and as the latter surrounded the building

Comments

[htpcl]

Mentioning the Reichstag fire reminds me of a myth that used to be very popular around here in commie times. See, because there was a trial after the fire, some commies from around Europe were accused of the act, including Georgi Dimitrov, prominent BG commie at the time. The legend goes that he used his time in jail to prepare for the trial, learning German super-quickly and refusing a solicitor but defending himself personally instead. According to the legend, he totally pwnd the jurors in court, and to the mockery of his supposedly barbarian Bulgarian origin he responded with something to the effect of, "Excuse me, mein Herren, but at the time our Tzars were spreading the light of knowledge around Europe and were giving an alphabet to the Slavic peoples, your kings still dared speak German only to their horses" (long story). That myth was supposed to instill a sense of national pride in us, and an impression of the moral superiority of communism over the rotten Western capitalism. Or something. And for a time it really did

[htpcl]

It was something about Charlemagne.

[telemann]

This is a rather significant incident, wouldn't you say? But I guess since it makes Kiev look bad, the Western media has preferred to ignore it, or rather mention it with half a mouth


It was covered in a NBC Nightly News report.

And it was covered by the New York Times too.


USA Today covered it too.

HuffingtonPost too.

[luzribeiro]

I've been watching CNN and BBC all afternoon today, and I've got the NYT and The Times print edition from yesterday at my table right now. All I could hear on the US and UK television of the incident was a 30-second piece at the BBC which was aired *once* and briefly mentioned that "a fire broke out in Odessa, there are dozens killed". Nothing beyond that. No attempt to dig any further into the story. Mind you, this is the CNN Worldwide version that I'm talking about, the one that's supposedly not obsessed with US-centric news. Meanwhile, they've been covering the missing plane for hours without end, even weeks after it disappeared; and I just watched a 5-minute report about princess Kate's supposed 2nd baby for the 4th time today on CNN (that Candy-whatever reporter has a really annoying voice).

There's one article at the New York Times, yes, and it's somewhere around the middle pages. Meanwhile, their online version only remotely mentions Ukraine, and not in relation to the Odessa massacre, but something about Kiev's struggle to

[htpcl]

It is being covered pretty extensively around our political talks programs. But then again, Odessa is just 500 km away from our border (and we've already had a few cases of Russian fighter jets entering the air over our territorial waters, so you can imagine that we're a bit concerned with the news).

[enders_shadow]

Papers don't print what their readers need to learn about, they print what their readers want, full stop.
Not enough Americans want to concern themselves with issues of things far away.

And though I've been following it, in a limited way, I still feel like a good hour+ seminar on Ukrainian history from a professor would be needed for me to know much more than: shit's fucked up over there....and Putin is a bastard, but what else is new.

[abomvubuso]

Odessa is generally one of the most peaceful cities in East Europe, and definitely in Ukraine. What's more, it's largely politically indifferent. This only shows that there must've been an outside factor pushing both sides. And neither side proved to be smart enough to have the restraint and de-escalate.

It *is* a civil war, and in addition a proxy civil war. Both sides are getting support from abroad, from their respective puppet-masters. For example, the pro-Russian separatists in Slavyansk keep shooting down Ukrainian helicopters (a 3rd one was brought down earlier today), which they can't do without equipment that's delivered from Russia. On the other side, there are already Western mercenaries preparing to fight for Kiev. It's going to get dirty, and a number of great powers are bracing themselves for another chess game. And who are the ones who'll pay the whole bill? Why, the Ukrainian people of course.

[htpcl]

If you're trying to make a point that the pro-Russian activists are violent Putin tools, sure they are. I'm not sure how that negates the point that's being made in this post, though.

[htpcl]

Well, they did use some English words...

Let me see if I'm reading it right.

1) The West supports the Euromaidan government.
2) Russia supports violent separatists in Ukraine.
3) There are right-wing extremists in the Euromaidan movement doing horrible things.
4) The Russian separatists are playing by Putin's long-rehearsed plan.
5) The West turns a blind eye to the horrible things the right-wing extremists are doing.
6) Putin is using the violence as an excuse to carve more parts off of Ukraine.
7) Neither side is a saint; both sides claim the other one is the villain; including Russia and the West; politics as usual, etc etc etc.

Your picture covers point (2) of the list, I believe.

[ex_leo_sosn]

Fire was more or less just an accident, I don't think that attackers wanted to set it on fire intentionally. I just want to add some points to this topic:

1. Some of the people that were inside of the building used handguns, auto weapons and molotovs against their opponents several hours before arson took place. A lot of videos out there proving that.

2. Many of the attackers, when realized that people are dying in fire, helped people to get out using ladders and construction scaffolding. There are videos about that also.

[luzribeiro]

I'm sure they didn't want to burn the people inside alive. They just wanted to make a point by throwing all those Molotov cocktails through the broken windows, right?

Yes, some of the people outside were not like the others and didn't want to murder anybody. That doesn't make those who beat up the ones who were jumping through the windows any more saint-y.

[ex_leo_sosn]

Well, it was more or less a street combat. You wouldn't expected opposing party to humbly accept punishment, wouldn't you? Yes, they are not innocent, but both sides contributed to this relatively equally.

Agree. But from what I've seen there's only 1 video with 1 man beating someone, supposedly jumped from the building saving his life from fire, and lots of videos where multiple people doing something to help multiple people to escape fire.

[luzribeiro]

both sides contributed to this relatively equally

Agree. And that's not the point, and neither is how many people are good and how many are bad. It's not a mathematical equation. The point is, the so called Great Powers are taking sides, be it with their biased stances or their silence, even in the face of blatant atrocity. That's the whole point. But you could go on and spend the evening counting videos if you like.