When The Captors Want The Hostage Dead, Is It Kidnapping?

[peristaltor]

The sheer silliness of even casting a shadow of a glimmer of a sliver of blame on the Democratic Party members in Congress regarding this shutdown thing is laughable enough. There is more than enough evidence that the Tea Party has run with this ball all the way. I won't bother recounting it here

Comments

[mrbogey]

'The sheer silliness of even casting a shadow of a glimmer of a sliver of blame on the Democratic Party members in Congress regarding this shutdown thing is laughable enough.'

That's ridiculous.

That both sides put forth solutions to end it shows neither side as a party wanted it.

[soliloquy76]

That one side used it as a bargaining chip shows that they were at least willing to allow it to happen if they didn't get what they wanted.

[soliloquy76]

We're talking about shutdown, not default. Given the rhetoric of some Congress members, it wasn't a foregone conclusion that this would end like it did. Quite a few Republicans were denying that default would be a big deal, or saying that we could just prioritize payments to bondholders (as if not paying government employees, veterans, seniors, etc was acceptable or wouldn't carrying a heavy economic price, too).

[soliloquy76]

It's just a matter of time. Each time they do this, the stakes get higher and we get closer and closer to it happening. Eighteen senators voted against the bipartisan budget agreement tonight, which is basically a vote FOR default. All it would have taken was one senator to block the bill and we default.

[mrbogey]

A default WILL never happen but our credit will get progressively worse because we've done ZERO to fix our unsustainable debt. That we have to fight about it every year is an alarm. That our compromise is to do nothing about it is the panic.

Environmentalists cry about how eventually the world will be destroyed by unsustainable growth and yet so many of them don't understand basic financial interest rates and their effect on financial policies. It's already at the point that reforms are painful. In another decade or so, the debt will make governance impossible without Greece style cuts or Zimbabwean inflation. This isn't an infinitely multi-variable complex issue. It's pretty straight-forward.

Think it's bad now? Wait till there will be no way to avoid default without tanking the economy.

[rick_day]

But that unsustainable debt is not the point of this post, is it?

If you make a post about reducing the national debt, I'd have a lot to say about it.

To me this post is more about the South using the process to exact revenge from the 14th amendment. Do you agree that this is the core of the rationale for defaulting the globe because poor people might cheat the dole?

Also, I'm not sure about you, but I put the health of our home well above financial interest rates.

Priorities, etc...

[cheezyfish]

It's why the markets didn't really react

No matter how hard Obama tried to make them react at that.

[mrbogey]

Yes, the DNC was willing to allow it to happen and they knew the RNC would blink if pushed. If only the media would have tried to not heap all the blame on one side, Obama would have been less reckless.

[soliloquy76]

The DNC tied defunding Obamacare to funding the government and initiated this whole process? The DNC changed House rules preventing anyone but the majority leader from bringing a Senate bill to a vote in an effort to get more "stuff" from Democrats via brinkmanship?

Sorry, I get your frustration at not having complete control of Congress and the presidency, but this is all on the GOP. Allowing a minority party to dictate terms at the barrel of a gun is a bridge too far. Obama was wrong to have gone along with it previously, but he and congressional Democrats did the right thing by nullifying this ridiculous and reckless tactic. If the GOP wants their way or the highway, win more elections.

[mrbogey]

What's worse. Pick one.

1.Defunding Obamacare

2. Gov't Shutdown.

Sorry we don't live in a dictatorship where the president has complete control over the decision-making process. A lot of Republicans were elected to defund Obamacare. They did as they were charged to do. Obama and Dems said Defunding Obamacare was worse than a shutdown so the shutdown commenced.

The very imagery you use is an attempt to delegitamize duly granted powers given to the House by the Constitution. Obama isn't the boss of the US. It's pretty basic Constitutional. The House sends up bills, they can sign or veto them. Describing negotiations as hostage taking is typical of the villainization of Republicans that we get from the modern day democratic party.

[soliloquy76]

What's this dictatorship nonsense? Obama and Democrats said using the threat of government shutdown (or default) is not an acceptable tactic. This wasn't as much about Obamacare for the Democrats as it was that fact. Using the livelihoods of 900,000 government employees or the nation's economy as hostages -- and that's exactly what they were -- is the problem here. Would you have the Democrats acquiesce to any demand from the House to stave off a shutdown or a default? If the roles were reversed, would you accept this tactic? It's bad politics, period, and is why this is being pinned on Republicans by a wide margin.

[telemann]

The dictatorship of having a major bill passed in Congress after being debated and hashed out over the course of a year, which then was challenged in several major court battles, and then appealed to the Supreme Court, and was upheld. But said bill was re-litigated by all the Republican primary candidates in 2012, and again by their ultimate nominee in who lost. And also lost the opportunity to gain the majority in the Senate in what were supposedly Republican banner years for doing so (and some of those senatorial candidates ran on a heavily anti-Obama-care platform).

You know, *THAT* dictatorship.

[mrbogey]

'What's this dictatorship nonsense? Obama and Democrats said using the threat of government shutdown (or default) is not an acceptable tactic'

And that's precisely the tactic he used! The House passed piecemeal bills to fund the gov't and to kick the debt ceiling further down the road so it can be discussed after the budgetary issues are settled. Obama rejected them both and demanded that they give him everything he wants or the gov't will be shut down and the debt defaulted.

' If the roles were reversed, would you accept this tactic?'

Of course, unlike the average Dem, I would give up a piece of legislation that is failing horribly as we speak in order to help the country stay stable. Unfortunately, Democrats seem to be willing to hurt people to get their way.

You insist on saying the GOP took hostages and using violent imagery to sell something that is simply a DNC talking point. You can be so much better than just a parrot for talking points.

[soliloquy76]

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here or if you truly believe this nonsense.

The House passed piecemeal bills

This is the same tactic. Defunding some departments and funding others is bad politics.

Obama rejected them both and demanded that they give him everything he wants

Obama didn't ask for anything other than funding the government. This is neutral ground, not a concession to Democrats.

Of course, unlike the average Dem, I would give up a piece of legislation that is failing horribly as we speak in order to help the country stay stable.

The shutdown didn't start "as we speak." It started before the buggy marketplace went live. Two weeks is not a reasonable amount of time to gauge whether a program is working well or not. Medicare Part D had a bad rollout, but the problems were fixed over time and the program is considered a success. If, in a few years, things are still shit, then that would be a reasonable time to amend or repeal and/or replace.

You insist on saying the GOP took hostages and using