Columbus' true face

[airiefairie]

History is written by the winners - this is a well known principle. For example, October 11 was Columbus Day. Ever since the 18th century, Columbus' arrival on American soil in 1492 is being celebrated in the United States, all throughout Central America, the Caribbean, Spain, Argentina, Uruguay etc. But what is actually being celebrated? And if

Comments

[airiefairie]

Yes, the notion that everyone was the same at the time and had no other choice but to be someone that we nowadays would condemn "because the times were such", is false. There are some absolute moral concepts that transcend any epochs and are valid from a human, philosophical, and especially religious point of view. If "Do not kill" is one of the Commandments, then the only way to bypass it is to somehow declare these people sub-human... which could presumably serve as some kind of excuse for treating them like livestock. But even at the time there were people from within Columbus' own circle who were not OK with all that.

Columbus is enormously important. But telling the full story is essential for understanding what exactly he is important for. Context does matter.

[peristaltor]

There are some absolute moral concepts that transcend any epochs and are valid from a human, philosophical, and especially religious point of view.

I would question that. In the race for resources, the various colonial powers often competed on how brutal they could be. I recall a South Seas power struggle between the English and (IIRC) Portugeuse (sp?). Each were vying for the favors of two brother warlords for extraction rights.

The Dutch came along, killed both brothers outright, claimed the entire area for themselves, and brought enough firepower to repel both the other colonial ships.

Lesson: to the most inhumane went the spoils.

[airiefairie]

That in no way addresses the issue of morality. It addresses the fact that brutal force gives advantage, i.e. you are talking of practicality.

[peristaltor]

. . . you are talking of practicality.

I usually do.

More seriously, when the difference between resources can lead to national advantage, and the only impediment standing between those resources and your nation are getting the silly natives out of the way/co-opted first, brutality practicality becomes an almost Darwinian response. The first to exploit brutally gets the goodies. Those that demur get nothing, unless you include a future ass-whooping to the brutal resource winners as something.

Consider the wars Spain was able to finance with New World gold and silver. Extrapolate.

[airiefairie]

I usually do.

This is great, and I admire that approach, and yet here we are speaking of a society largely driven by religious doctrine. And religious doctrine is very straightforward, as far as violence against other human beings is concerned. At no point does it give primacy of practical expedience over moral imperative.

[peristaltor]

I was thinking about religious edict and dogma while I was typing the last comment. I wonder if the Dutch's dastardly deeds might have had something to do with the Protestant schism. Not being too tightly associated with the Pope might give them less restraint.

The French, the Spanish, the Portuguese, and even the English (with their Anglican faux-Catholic church) had more watchful eyes on them. And if the Dutch didn't like the condemnations of one preacher, they could always vote with their feet and find one more accommodating.

This doesn't in any way explain CC's despicable behavior, of course.

I would also take exception to your phrase "violence against other human beings," given just about every religious traditions' regard of "educational" violence, aka The Spanish Inquisition, the Curse of Ham, and the like. It seems to be the absolute rule only when applied to one's own church members.

[airiefairie]

The commandment is "Thou shall not kill". That is what it says. That it has been disregarded, or perverted, or misused, does not change it - it only makes the perpetrators more hypocritical.

I don't know about the Dutch being influenced by Protestant schism, but the Spanish at the time of Columbus were pretty hardcore Catholic.

[underlankers]

Do the Dutch still rule Indonesia? Does the Soviet Union still have sway over everything in Europe to the Elbe? Brutality is a short-term solution at best, and what it 'solves' it ruins as much as it helps.

[htpcl]

> Does the Soviet Union still have sway over everything in Europe to the Elbe?

Well, Gazprom decided to switch off the gas supply for a fortnight, and everything in Europe to the Elbe plunged into darkness and frost in the middle of winter. That was two winters ago. It became known as The Long Night.

Then the Whitewalkers came, hungry for baby flesh...

[underlankers]

I asked about the Soviet Union, not Putin's Russia.

[telemann]

The Dutch were brutal in the Western Pacific. Kate Humble of the BBC did a really cool set of documentaries about spices and the other items you associate with the gifts the wise men brought to Jesus, I'm not sure if this was a Christmas season special or what.

The special on nutmeg was pretty brutal, the natives still to this day honor those murdered hundreds of years ago.

I *think* this is the episode.