Some thoughts on truth and virtue

[tacit]

"When in doubt, tell the truth."
-- Mark TwainSome time ago, I was embroiled in a bit of a sticky situation between some friends of mine and some other friends of mine. The first friends had asked me, unbidden, if I knew something about the situation of the second friend; the second friend and I had talked about this very thing just days earlier

Comments

[dawnd]

It reveals that the poster is likely afraid, and is dealing with zir fear through name-calling of others to gain the supposedly higher ground.

Either that, or they're an asshole. ;^)

[dawnd]

Oh, and I forgot to say that the whole post in general really rocks. Great stuff, and probably worth including in some form on your website. Mind if I link to it?

[tacit]

Not at all! :)

Hey, Asshole!

[siren_sings]

I think all of us who would rather be called an asshole and speak our minds ought to just recalim that word the way serious women took back "bitch" and the way some of us have decided that "slut" is a compliment.

Of course that means only your friends who get it are allowed to call you that. As in:

Suzie: "Hi, Asshole! :-)"
Franklin: "Hi, Bitch! I hear you're quite the slut!"
Suzie: "Why, thank you! You too!"
Suzie & Franklin: {Hugs}

Love you!
-Suzie, your bitch

Re: Hey, Asshole!

[ladytabitha]

That is, I believe, the entire premise behind Heartless-Bitches.com.  :)

Strangely, rosefox has mostly heard "dork" as an insult, whereas I think of it as a term of affection and endearment.  I'm helping her see the word from my point of view, hurrah!

Re: Hey, Asshole!

[tacit]

Well, yanno, "dork" is Yiddish for "penis..."

Re: Hey, Asshole!

[tacit]

My word, I just love when you talk all sexy like that...I generally prefer "whore" to "slut," though, as I ike the connotations of hard work and industriousness. :)

[tacit]

When courage becomes a habit, it's still courage. In fact, I believe that courage and cowardice can both become habits, and that if you keep any habit for long enough, it becomes so natural and reflexive that responding the other way becomes something you never even think about.

Most people, I susypect, make a habit of cowardice, so as adults the notion that they can confront their fears and behave with courage never even occurs to them. At that point, I don't think it's possible to change the habit without a LOT of work.

[roaming]

Well, I wonder what you'd make of this situation, Franklin. On LJ animal rights, high school student had a dilemma. The class was asked to make a presentation on organizations that had an impact on society. She chose PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.) Now, I don't want to get into a whole thang about PETA, pro and con. It's not about them. :-)

The student did her presentation, talking about her values as a vegan. The teacher, wearing leather shoes and a fur coat (not really), kept making personal asides like, "well, I guess I'm the enemy in this little scenario, eh?" (wink wink nudge nudge). The teacher's attitude that anyone who's personal ethics were contrary to hers were assholes. The student, worried that she'd get a failing grade, completely backed down in the face of the teacher's derogatory remarks. The student had literature (with upsetting pictures of factory farming and slaughterhouses) to hand out, but didn't. She lacked the courage of her convictions. But the question is

[anklesnake]

Having been an uppity little feminist/animal rights/youth rights teenager, I must say that it is important to choose ones battles. You can't fight every moral war, you will bury yourself and never accomplish anything. When it comes to activism, effectiveness is more important than absolute consistency. Because, after all, isn't activism about getting things done?

To me, this example is not about courage, it is about saving ones energy for the bigger fights.

[roaming]

Thanks. That's the way I was leaning, but didn't have the right words.

We had another example, which I think goes the other way about courage. Young girl noticing animals not being properly cared for in a pet shop. Didn't know what to do. Didn't think the manager would take her seriously. We counseled her to report to someone who DID have authority. She didn't. But she said "NEXT time I encounter this situation, I know what to do." Heh. Right.

I'm out of the right words a LOT these days, reduced to gibberish. :-)

Moving ot Boston, en masse, eh? :-) Well, i's about friggin' time. You, um, do all know it's not just cold, but DAMN COLD, up here? My heating bills doubled this past Dec/Jan. I just put on a few more cats on the bed.

Can't wait to meet you all end of the month!

Silence does not constitute agreement

[roaming]

What I might have done in the student's case (of course, this would presume my having had the self-possession as a HS student as I do now, at 25 -- NOT a likely scenario) is not to agree with the teacher, but perhaps refuse to discuss further, while stating that my silence does not constitute my acquiescence.

Arguing with people who can't be argued with is a waste of time, and in this student's case, possibly hurtful to her grade. In such a situation, I think it is morally permissible to state "I do not agree" and leave it at that.

Incidentally, this is sarameonblue from the PolyMono list, and not the "you're an asshole" anonymous poster. Although I may disagree with Franklin at times, I attempt to do so without name-calling, and always with my list-name attached.

anonymous posting....

[skitten]

I got personally attacked in my lj by someone who refused to tell me who they were... This prompted me to change my settings to disallow anonymous replies....

Honesty is important to me... but tact is also important....
I think pretending you like or are friends with someone is such a stupid thing to do...
but saying things to deliberately hurt that person's feelings is obnoxious...
So I guess I wonder where that line should be drawn...

How do you tell someone you don't really want to hang out with them anymore or at all without being overly cruel or harsh?

Re: anonymous posting....

[tacit]

I don't want to disallow anonymous posting; people can post whatever they like here, though I may delete the post (something I've done on a few occasions), ridicule the poster, or both. :)

Tact is something that is entirely unrelated to honesty. From a very young age, we're taught that "tact" means "telling lies to avoid offending someone," but the fact is, it's possible to be honest without also being insulting. And the reverse is true as well; lying to someone is not the same as protecting that person's feelings...

If you really don't want to hang out with someone, there is probably no way to say it without hurting that person. But pretending you like someone you don't is also hurtful; it merely postpones the hurt, that's all. And you are not ethically obligated to spend time with every single person who wants to spend time with you! You have, first and foremost, an ethical right to choose how you spend your time, and with whom.

Re: anonymous posting....

[skitten]

Some excellent points...
It's hard to know, except from experience, what a gentle way to say no thank you might be....
I think we are told (at least young women are) that we need to be polite and friendly all the imte to everyone we meet- otherwise we aren't being *nice*

I think I need to learn how not to be so nice if I feel someone is stepping on me... but it's so well entrenched in me that I simply don't know how.... I keep worrying about hurting someone's feelings...