First off, thanks, t-eyla, for putting all this a) eloquently and b) without the venom I had been nervously anticipating since I heard you had written an entry based on our exchange. I guess I'd better make a distinction here. I really do not presume to judge the whole genre of sci-fi, because I have relatively little experience of it.
Here is my basic opinion, and I stress the fact that that's all it is:
Shows such as Star Trek, BSG and the like: I haven't seen an awful lot of them. I have seen enough to know that I personally cannot connect to characters in such wild and unimaginable situations in any meaningful way, regardless of their metaphors for the present day. HOWEVER, I recognise that this is a personal flaw of my own character, and can easily see how these programmes could be deeply appreciated and understood by others.
Doctor Who (revival edition): I apologise profusely, but I have seen a lot of the New Who and cannot find one redeeming quality in it. While I can identify, if not enjoy, the depth of some sci-fi shows, I struggle to find anything in this that isn't superficial, clunky and, for a show which operates through aliens, futuristic concepts and bizarre inventions, strikingly unimaginative. Everything about it strikes me as depressingly 2D and, if I might use such a provocative label, slapdash. Torchwood, on the other hand, while not something I watch personally, seems to be something altogether different due to the fact that it has good actors, interpersonal relationships that actually engage on a mature level and a more refined production.
As for House, I cannot defend the occasionally insane writing and characterisation. My love of the show is primarily carried by Hugh Laurie (and, at times, RSL and Lisa E), an incredibly gifted and subtle actor, whose superiority to Tennant's incessant mugging is almost painful (though he's still better than the wooden RADA rejects they range around him). So while I agree that there may be times that Dr Who's writing surpasses House's (in more recent episodes, seeing as the earlier ones are untouchable as far as I'm concerned), for me, this is made up for by the fact that House depicts human, emotional stories that I can relate to, whereas Dr Who, however great it's writing might become, could never affect me the same way.
To cut a long story short, I don't deny that sci-fi can engage, provoke, explore and discuss deep and intellectually probing questions. Not at all. I simply stand by my opinion that Doctor Who does none of these things.
Tl;dr again... sorry, lol ;)t_eylaJanuary 15 2008, 19:37:15 UTC
thanks, t-eyla, for putting all this a) eloquently and b) without the venom I had been nervously anticipating I don't believe in spouting vitriol when I don't agree with someone. Well-founded arguments work so much better to convince other people of your opinion ;).
this is a personal flaw of my own character I don't consider it a flaw. It's simply a matter of preference. Me, I could never get into the whole idea of watching/reading something only so I could find out how it relates to the real world. Actually, I have a deep aversion to doing so. As I said, matter of preference.
As for Doctor Who, I think the problem is multi-layered. 1) You generally don't like sci-fi and can't really gain any intellectual stimulation from watching/reading it. 2) You subsequently have no awareness of the history and culture of sci-fi. 3) You have only ever seen New Who.
New Who is of an extremely postmodern character. You know how shows that have been running for rather a long time start including little inside jokes and humorous jabs at their own clichés? Like for example the X-Files; I'm thinking of the season 5 episode Postmodern Prometheus, which is so extremely self-ironic it twists your brain.
Well. Doctor Who has been running since 1963. And unlike Star Trek, which survived by creating one spin-off after the other, this is still the same show. It's the same show that used to have aliens who were wearing bubble wrap costumes, and the same main character that in the 80ies ran around for 5 seasons wearing a decorative celery stick on his lapel. The term sonic screwdriver, when it was invented, sounded highly technological. Today, the word sonic communicates out-dated equipment.
New Who is a science fiction show faced with the nearly impossible task to bridge more than 40 years of science, and not only any 40 years, but the last 40 years of the 20th century, which have brought us more technological progress than any other time. Subsequently, they had to develop their own style - the one I mentioned above. They question everything. Nothing is conventional, even the unconventional elements are not unconventional in a conventional sense. This is how you get homicidal Christmas trees and murderous shop window dummies and the crazed, seemingly over-the-top character that is Tennant's interpretation of the Doctor.
I can see how someone who's completely blank as far as sci-fi is concerned would get the impression that this show is the worst, most superficial show ever, though. Doctor Who is using all the classic elements of sci-fi because it has to; they're too deeply ingrained in the canon to discard them. You have to have a certain awareness of sci-fi culture to gain anything from watching it. I've never realized this before, but now that I'm thinking about it, it seems very obvious. Because New Who is like a very well written, original guilty pleasure fic for sci-fi geeks.
I think it's fascinating that you find Torchwood more interesting than DW. Because while I like TW, I can't help but laugh at how hard it tries to be adult - every other scene there's sex, boy kissing or violence. I watch it because I approve of the boy kissing, and because they do have their moments, but imo, it's by far not as well thought through as DW. And um, about the production? The producers of both shows are the same person.
I'm not going to start comparing HL to DT, because I think they're both extremely awesome in their very own way. HL would basically suck if he tried to play the tenth Doctor, just like DT would fail horribly if he tried to be House. I appreciate them both as very talented actors. David Tennant is much prettier, though.
House depicts human, emotional stories that I can relate to, whereas Dr Who, however great it's writing might become, could never affect me the same way I think that is what it comes down to. It's a matter of preference. And that's great, isn't it? Infinite diversity in infinite combination; the more people with different opinions, the more interesting it gets here in fandom \o/ :D.
Re: Tl;dr again... sorry, lol ;)maddoggirlJanuary 15 2008, 19:59:42 UTC
Erm ... yes, basically. By production, by the way, I meant general slickness of appearance rather than literal producers. But anyway, yeah. I see what you mean about everything.
I've never watched the X Files (bit before my time). I think I'd like it. Mulder and Scully seem sassy in a way that appeals to me. And I like the mystery element. Anyhoo, thanks for taking the time to politely explain why I'm not approaching the show in the right way, because you're right. It'll help me be more understanding next time I clash with my friend Mark over Dr Who (he HAS the sonic screwdriver. And a sonic bottle-opener, but I'm guessing that doesn't feature in the show ;D)
Re: Tl;dr again... sorry, lol ;)t_eylaJanuary 15 2008, 20:19:12 UTC
Oh, the X Files are awesome. It might be a way for you to find your way into the horror/sci-fi genre, if you're interested. X Files isn't quite as hard core as DW xD.
Yay for having convinced you, lol xD. Btw, I wasn't trying to tell you you have to love DW. If you want to, you should go right on hating the show, because there's never going to be a show everybody loves. I just couldn't keep my mouth shut, since I got the feeling that you were missing out on the exact factor that I think makes DW as awesome as I think it is.
I was thinking about buying the sonic screwdriver on ebay, to go with my cosplay Doctor costume. But the December budget didn't cover it D:.
Re: Tl;dr again... sorry, lol ;)wihlutaJanuary 15 2008, 20:36:38 UTC
I have to say that for me, the thing I like most about Torchwood is how they always seem to fail at everything they're attempting. But they never give up. They lick the wounds and get right on it again. And that's something I admire.
I have to say, though, that appart from John Barrowmann and the actress that plays Gwen, I find the actors rather dull and wooden. But that's maybe just me, and because I like a 'crazy' actor like DT. :-)
Re: Tl;dr again... sorry, lol ;)maddoggirlJanuary 15 2008, 20:43:49 UTC
I think, to be honest, that a lot of minor actors in British shows are worse than their US counterparts. That doesn't count for period dramas, though - whether or not they're actually fun and interesting, they usually have excellent casts.
Like I say, I've never really watched it properly. But I know what I like and I like John Barrowman :D
Re: Tl;dr again... sorry, lol ;)maddoggirlJanuary 16 2008, 17:40:29 UTC
Perhaps they could replace Torchwood with half an hour of shirtless John Barrowman? Just him around the house, playing the piano, reading a book, all shirtless. That would be killer viewing.
First off, thanks, t-eyla, for putting all this a) eloquently and b) without the venom I had been nervously anticipating since I heard you had written an entry based on our exchange. I guess I'd better make a distinction here. I really do not presume to judge the whole genre of sci-fi, because I have relatively little experience of it.
Here is my basic opinion, and I stress the fact that that's all it is:
Shows such as Star Trek, BSG and the like: I haven't seen an awful lot of them. I have seen enough to know that I personally cannot connect to characters in such wild and unimaginable situations in any meaningful way, regardless of their metaphors for the present day. HOWEVER, I recognise that this is a personal flaw of my own character, and can easily see how these programmes could be deeply appreciated and understood by others.
Doctor Who (revival edition): I apologise profusely, but I have seen a lot of the New Who and cannot find one redeeming quality in it. While I can identify, if not enjoy, the depth of some sci-fi shows, I struggle to find anything in this that isn't superficial, clunky and, for a show which operates through aliens, futuristic concepts and bizarre inventions, strikingly unimaginative. Everything about it strikes me as depressingly 2D and, if I might use such a provocative label, slapdash. Torchwood, on the other hand, while not something I watch personally, seems to be something altogether different due to the fact that it has good actors, interpersonal relationships that actually engage on a mature level and a more refined production.
As for House, I cannot defend the occasionally insane writing and characterisation. My love of the show is primarily carried by Hugh Laurie (and, at times, RSL and Lisa E), an incredibly gifted and subtle actor, whose superiority to Tennant's incessant mugging is almost painful (though he's still better than the wooden RADA rejects they range around him). So while I agree that there may be times that Dr Who's writing surpasses House's (in more recent episodes, seeing as the earlier ones are untouchable as far as I'm concerned), for me, this is made up for by the fact that House depicts human, emotional stories that I can relate to, whereas Dr Who, however great it's writing might become, could never affect me the same way.
To cut a long story short, I don't deny that sci-fi can engage, provoke, explore and discuss deep and intellectually probing questions. Not at all. I simply stand by my opinion that Doctor Who does none of these things.
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I don't believe in spouting vitriol when I don't agree with someone. Well-founded arguments work so much better to convince other people of your opinion ;).
this is a personal flaw of my own character
I don't consider it a flaw. It's simply a matter of preference. Me, I could never get into the whole idea of watching/reading something only so I could find out how it relates to the real world. Actually, I have a deep aversion to doing so. As I said, matter of preference.
As for Doctor Who, I think the problem is multi-layered.
1) You generally don't like sci-fi and can't really gain any intellectual stimulation from watching/reading it.
2) You subsequently have no awareness of the history and culture of sci-fi.
3) You have only ever seen New Who.
New Who is of an extremely postmodern character. You know how shows that have been running for rather a long time start including little inside jokes and humorous jabs at their own clichés? Like for example the X-Files; I'm thinking of the season 5 episode Postmodern Prometheus, which is so extremely self-ironic it twists your brain.
Well. Doctor Who has been running since 1963. And unlike Star Trek, which survived by creating one spin-off after the other, this is still the same show. It's the same show that used to have aliens who were wearing bubble wrap costumes, and the same main character that in the 80ies ran around for 5 seasons wearing a decorative celery stick on his lapel. The term sonic screwdriver, when it was invented, sounded highly technological. Today, the word sonic communicates out-dated equipment.
New Who is a science fiction show faced with the nearly impossible task to bridge more than 40 years of science, and not only any 40 years, but the last 40 years of the 20th century, which have brought us more technological progress than any other time. Subsequently, they had to develop their own style - the one I mentioned above. They question everything. Nothing is conventional, even the unconventional elements are not unconventional in a conventional sense. This is how you get homicidal Christmas trees and murderous shop window dummies and the crazed, seemingly over-the-top character that is Tennant's interpretation of the Doctor.
I can see how someone who's completely blank as far as sci-fi is concerned would get the impression that this show is the worst, most superficial show ever, though. Doctor Who is using all the classic elements of sci-fi because it has to; they're too deeply ingrained in the canon to discard them. You have to have a certain awareness of sci-fi culture to gain anything from watching it. I've never realized this before, but now that I'm thinking about it, it seems very obvious. Because New Who is like a very well written, original guilty pleasure fic for sci-fi geeks.
I think it's fascinating that you find Torchwood more interesting than DW. Because while I like TW, I can't help but laugh at how hard it tries to be adult - every other scene there's sex, boy kissing or violence. I watch it because I approve of the boy kissing, and because they do have their moments, but imo, it's by far not as well thought through as DW. And um, about the production? The producers of both shows are the same person.
I'm not going to start comparing HL to DT, because I think they're both extremely awesome in their very own way. HL would basically suck if he tried to play the tenth Doctor, just like DT would fail horribly if he tried to be House. I appreciate them both as very talented actors. David Tennant is much prettier, though.
House depicts human, emotional stories that I can relate to, whereas Dr Who, however great it's writing might become, could never affect me the same way
I think that is what it comes down to. It's a matter of preference. And that's great, isn't it? Infinite diversity in infinite combination; the more people with different opinions, the more interesting it gets here in fandom \o/ :D.
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I've never watched the X Files (bit before my time). I think I'd like it. Mulder and Scully seem sassy in a way that appeals to me. And I like the mystery element. Anyhoo, thanks for taking the time to politely explain why I'm not approaching the show in the right way, because you're right. It'll help me be more understanding next time I clash with my friend Mark over Dr Who (he HAS the sonic screwdriver. And a sonic bottle-opener, but I'm guessing that doesn't feature in the show ;D)
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Yay for having convinced you, lol xD. Btw, I wasn't trying to tell you you have to love DW. If you want to, you should go right on hating the show, because there's never going to be a show everybody loves. I just couldn't keep my mouth shut, since I got the feeling that you were missing out on the exact factor that I think makes DW as awesome as I think it is.
I was thinking about buying the sonic screwdriver on ebay, to go with my cosplay Doctor costume. But the December budget didn't cover it D:.
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I have to say, though, that appart from John Barrowmann and the actress that plays Gwen, I find the actors rather dull and wooden. But that's maybe just me, and because I like a 'crazy' actor like DT. :-)
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I love love love the Gwen/Rhys dynamics. I think it's my second favorite thing about the show, after John Barrowman and his Gay of Awesome.
OMG TORCHWOOD ON THURSDAY!!!!111!!11
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AND YAYAYAY ONLY TWO MORE DAYS!
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Like I say, I've never really watched it properly. But I know what I like and I like John Barrowman :D
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here, look at that:
*happy smile*
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and it's good to know that we can always find at least one topic on which we agree. Hot men. LOL
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And now tell me again that Doctor Who doesn't come up with awesome ideas. DEFABRICATOR! YAY \o/ xD
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Ah well. It's not like I mind or anything.
TONGUE PR0N!!
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