Hahaha oh god hahaha (sobbing)

[t3hbastard]

Seriously!? I have to hear this Atlas Shrugged bullshit again? I thought once it was parodied in a video game we would be done with it. Never has a self-aggrandizing rape fantasy self-justified so much to so many

Comments

[t3hbastard]

I suspect we differ on the basis of our ethics. Ethics is not a written in stone litany of dos and don'ts its basicly an offshoot of philosophy. Modern interpretations of ethics almost always include the obligation of helping someone in need as long you do not jeopardizing yourself. If you accept that then your statement is not correct my premise is entirely ethical. Especially since in your argument you separate out the legitimate poor from welfare leeches. Your point must then be that you think its unethical to be forced to help those who are disadvantaged and not scamming or leeching. The only way I can see it being unethical is if you define ethical as never being forced to do something you don't want to even if it protects others or benefits society as a whole. That would mean drunk driving is ethical because I want to and probably no one will get hurt. Not my preferred definition. I suspect you are try desperately to shoe horn ethics into a shape that fits your predetermined belief or Dogma.

This is the problem with accepting dogma as opposed to thinking. Dogma can trap you into nonsensical statements. You must always use wisdom and judgment in the application of principles not Dogma.

You are mistaken if you believe hat keeping the number of truly impoverished people to a minimum is not in your best interest. a strong and wide based middle class is a defense against uprisings and civil unrest. It reduces the amount of crime and the number of addicts simply by giving people something to lose. Publicly subsidized health care reduces diseases that can spread like plagues through the population of rich and poor alike. It also lays the groundwork for rapid delivery and distribution of medical supplies in case of a biological attack. Helping the poor is helping yourself, if selflessness is not a good enough reason for you.

[flizbap]

You have to limit the help to those that are willing to help themselves or are at least trying to and failing to do so. Welfare, disability, and unemployment help very few people who actually need it because 90% of the money goes to those who milk it for all it's worth. I was damn near homeless and destitute and thanks to friends and family VOLUNTARILY helping me, I got back on my feet. i never used a dime of welfare or unemployment.

I know one person, her back is permanently f'd, her hips are permanently f'd, and she is batsh*t crazy. Her gummint money doesen't even cover her rent. Welfare doesent help the people who actually need it, it helps those who know how to work the system and have 13 kids and spend all day smoking meth.

If the goal is really to help the working poor, and those who are just "down on their luck", they should toss all that welfare money into education. Fund vocational rehab programs, kill off those fat bloated teacher's unions so that teacher's can be payed off of merit, not merely time in.

I have no problem with taxes. Heck Canada makes you pay out the ass for taxes. and if the goal is really to help the poor, and punish those flaunting their money and living off of other people's sweat, then make it a lifestyle tax. Or legalize prostitution and tax that.

[t3hbastard]

Then we are partially in agreement at least. Your argument seems to center around not wanting to be tricked into helping people who are just looking for a free ride. That's a different argument entirely than what you said before.

This comes down to reform on many levels. Throwing the money into education would simply be a different form of welfare then wouldn't it? I mean half the people I went to school with weren't even slightly interested in becoming productive members of society and that extended into college not just high school. A lot of my college classmates were only even there because mom and dad would pay for everything as long as they are enrolled.

There are tons of things that go into a true welfare reform. I want those things addressed and answers found. The answer is not now nor has it ever been "Fuck em." I hear constantly about how no body ever goes on welfare and then comes back from it. So here's my answer to that, my mom and I lived on food stamps for a my first year of highschool. She was a cop who got injured in the line of duty and fucked around through court dates and bullshit and surgeries for 2 years before any kind of settlement was reached. In the mean time bills kept pilling up. This was in the time alluded to when people say we currently have the highest unemployment in over a decade. In other words the unemployment rate was higher than now. At 15 I couldn't even get a job washing dishes somewhere. I looked, I offered to mow lawns, haul garbage even day labour for construction. Think I didn't try hard enough or mom didn't try hard enough? My response would be emotional to that one. So my mom finally got a job at a winn dixie. Eventually the economy picked up and a group of people I went to school with got together and we spent every penny we could scrounge plus a small loan from the rotary club to buy a Funnel Cake booth from a UStore it auction. So after roughly a year of my mom, the ex-cop who got hurt trying to help people, suffering from the derision of any asshole who saw her pay for groceries with monopoly money we managed to get back on our feet and we've never been there again. So if you think those programs only help welfare queens and slackers, I must respond as one of those people you are insulting and say fuck you. On the other if you think the system needs reform to make sure that the money is used responsibly then I agree totally. My mother went on to recieve a settlement that barely covered all of the medical and legal bills we had. She then attended college on a disability grant. The classes she took there were supposed to help her get a new job but were in effect worse than useless due to the complete retardation of the curriculum. Once she got her degree though she managed to get an excellent job on the merits of her abilities and intelligence so it worked out ok in the end.

[t3hbastard]

Also 90% any report you could link to or is that just indignant math?

[flizbap]

Indignant math.

And yes what i would be calling for is welfare reform is suppose. Never thought of a name for it really. Something as simple as a random drug test (though I think that might currently be also cost prohibitive). If someone like your mom could prove she was injured, and prove she was trying to move her life forward (the lawsuit) then she would qualify. Someone hooked on percocet with 7 different women chasing him for child support, should not.

Sorry if it seemed like a personal insult, that was NOT my intention. Trust me, anytime i apply for a job and the employer has been in the military they see my record they automatically assume that i was just trying to get disability money out of the army and that i'm a lazy dishonest ass. I actually DID turn my leg to chowder and needed legitimate medical help but thanks to worthless leeches, that got ruined for me.

[t3hbastard]

I really do understand. I consider talks like these as a chance for both people to hone and polish their thinking. I only wanted to push on that point to see where the reasoning went.

We really agree on most points we are just expressing them differently. I know you and I would never describe you as anything but compassionate. I very much believe your intent is to find a way that helps the deserving and gets the undeserving to change their thinking and get with the program.

Its just such a complicated thing, imagine the cost involved in making those case by case evaluations. Remember that its the person to make the onsite eval, then someone to review that eval, then an overall review board to make sure corruption isn't present. Once you are at that point its a huge and costly thing. I really only dislike the implication that there is some kind of easy answer. As though only help the good people is an easy thing to do. The reason we have the problems we have now could arguably be lack of funding. Its easier and cheaper to hand wave or lightly skim applications than to investigate everything which leaves them open to being fooled.

So since we're having this talk what are some answers to the issue? What would help streamline things?

Drug testing - This in fact mandatory in some states. Its vulnerable to the problem that people can cheat them. Also they are costly, more so as they become harder to fool. Its a good idea but how do you work it? Do we cut off funds completely or funnel the people to treatment programs? What about their children?

No pregnancies while on welfare - This is workable in general but can you imagine the outrage if you said get an abortion or you're off the program? The religious complaints would come even just from mandatory use of birth control. Tough but a good idea.

That's off the top of my head any thoughts of tweaking it?

[t3hbastard]

you have to go to a central location, there are 2 doors. one door says "free eduction, and training" the other door says "free crack"

behind the eduction door, money and educational programs. behind the crack door, Bob Sapp with an aluminium baseball bat.

Honestly there is no easy answer, we would have to change around the entire infrastructure of the united states. but in the end i think it would be better for us.

[t3hbastard]

Hahahahaah

Yes, I agree about changing the infrastructure. That is what I'm really interested in though. How does that restructuring look, how does it work, what would be needed to implement it? Those are my favorite sort of questions about this stuff. The answer will take a long time to implement so how is the ground work layed starting today.