Civilized society or Barbarism?ceciliamarie23October 10 2006, 22:20:28 UTC
If indivuals who had actually committed those crimes were counted, the numbers in terms of cost would be inconsequential. Drug laws, which effectively criminalize the poor and ethnic minorities, have the prisons brimming. Simply institute a sane approach to substance abuse and the prision industrual complex would reduce in size dramatically, if cost is your concern. As for the cathardic nature of violent retribution, as justifiable as it is in any sane person who oberves the aftermath of a violent psychopath, in a civil society, cannot be a basis for which governmental laws are instituted. Otherwise, the system begins to mirror the very criminal that it attempts to punish, or perhaps, it's the other way around? Turkey is actually a perfect example of a totally failed experiment in maintaining security through repression, btw. The human rights situation in that country is quite bleak and people are being imprisoned for expresing political views contrary to the gov. The U.S., Iran, Singapor, Saudi Arabia are a few on the list of countries that still implement the death penalty. All of which have very shady human rights records. Basically, what I'm saying is that you either get it one way or the other, but you can't have both. Institutions of all types from prisons to schools are reflections of a larger societies value systems. Those systems mirror one another as well. If you can justify institutionalized violence on any level, even to the least of our brethren, that violence will eventually be brought home to us, in one form or another (as it already has, school shootings, etc). I can tell by peoples responses here that even though they feel justified in certain ways towards the death penality, there is some ambiviance towards it. This is intuition speaking, the gut reaction saying, this is not consistant with what I believe.
And don't even get me started on pro-dp "Christ"-ians. Apparently, no one was listening when Jesus gave his whole pacifism speel. Poor guy, he tried. It just didn't quite stick....
Re: Civilized society or Barbarism?szy8xjOctober 11 2006, 10:48:27 UTC
Drug laws that criminalize the poor and ethnic minorities? Sistah PLEASE!!!
Should drug use and the selling of drugs be 'ok' because one is poor or of an ethnic minority? YIKES!!!! That reasoning could do away with most of the laws we have because they all 'criminalize' or discriminate against someone - mostly people WHO DO BAD THINGS!!!!
Prisons reflect society's value system that says - do bad things and you do time, do really bad things and you might be executed, do good things and you can live freely.
What then if were are to have a 'civilized' society instead of a 'barbarian' one - life without parole? Rehabilitation and back on the street? A couple of verses of Kumbayah and some self-reflection? Fifteen Hail Marys, Ten Our Fathers, Ten Glory-Be's and an extra couple of bucks in the collection plate? It sounds as though you don't want any penal system at all because it leads to 'institutional violence'.
Other than the death penalty, what do you mean by institutional violence?
And since you brought it up, what did JC have to say about child molesters, serial murderers, mass murderers, drug pushers, and other folks that society is just too hard on? I've searched my memory and I don't EVER remember Sister Philip or Brother Mike or Father Berardi saying that JC said to let those people go - I don't remember reading it either.
I see this discussion expanding way beyond what I had originally envisioned, but that is good - maybe my answer lies in the bigger discussion because it is not an easy one.
Re: Civilized society or Barbarism?woolybearOctober 11 2006, 15:58:59 UTC
Jesus was a law-abiding Jew who never said it was okay to break the law. But he also gave the Sermon on the Mount, with its "blessed are the peacemakers," "love your enemies," and which answers "eye for an eye" with "turn the other cheek," and which talks about withholding judgment of anyone. Capital crimes back then were part of the culture, and Jesus never directly said anything about it being bad or good, it was the law and he respected the law. His teachings are generally boiled down to compassion, though, and if you want to take the Christian line of argument then you have to look at what it means to be compassionate, and go from there.
Re: Civilized society or Barbarism?szy8xjOctober 11 2006, 16:28:37 UTC
Emotionally, my compassion goes right out the window when crimes are committed against kids. Rationally, my compassion equates to an 8X10 cell, two meals a day and a BIG pile of big rocks that need to be made into pea-gravel. I don't think that JC would disagree (too much).
Re: Civilized society or Barbarism?szy8xjOctober 11 2006, 19:23:35 UTC
WHAT bigger picture - people who do very bad things should not be punished? I spent 12 years in religious based schools, took several religion courses in college and I've read the Bible cover-to-cover and NEVER was taught that JC said ANYTHING like that!
OK, I'll bite - what do you think JC would do/say/think?
Remember, this is the same JC, son of the Big Guy who would damn you to hell for simply not believing in Him, or so his Churches teach.
Re: Civilized society or Barbarism?ceciliamarie23October 11 2006, 20:32:19 UTC
"or so his Churches teach," being the key phrase.
We're talking about two different concepts of God here. I don't believe God damnes anyone to hell. I believe God is Everything and that includes you, me, and all the people on Death Row. So, if you think of God as being Everything that means we're all connected and what you do to someone else has an effect on the whole. And Jesus knew that.
Re: Can't we all just get along?szy8xjOctober 12 2006, 10:46:16 UTC
Interesting, yes, but seemingly a bit of a cop-out. Where is the concept of right and wrong if whatever anyone does is ok because they are part of God and as such, God is doing that same thing?
Re: Can't we all just get along?sunringOctober 13 2006, 04:18:59 UTC
Not a cop out...it just fucks with your brain a bit, lol. Sorry I'm not explaining this very well.
There is no absolute concept of right and wrong. What is right for me at this moment in time might not be right for you. And I know what you're going to say about that, lol. That doesn't mean that we let people molest little kids because they think it's okay. It's not okay for the kids and it's not okay for us to let that happen, so we have to stop it.
Sarah says I should just tell you that it's as fruitless for me to try to explain this to you as it would be for you to try to explain that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally to a bunch of Pentecostals, lol.
As for the cathardic nature of violent retribution, as justifiable as it is in any sane person who oberves the aftermath of a violent psychopath, in a civil society, cannot be a basis for which governmental laws are instituted. Otherwise, the system begins to mirror the very criminal that it attempts to punish, or perhaps, it's the other way around?
Turkey is actually a perfect example of a totally failed experiment in maintaining security through repression, btw. The human rights situation in that country is quite bleak and people are being imprisoned for expresing political views contrary to the gov.
The U.S., Iran, Singapor, Saudi Arabia are a few on the list of countries that still implement the death penalty. All of which have very shady human rights records.
Basically, what I'm saying is that you either get it one way or the other, but you can't have both. Institutions of all types from prisons to schools are reflections of a larger societies value systems. Those systems mirror one another as well. If you can justify institutionalized violence on any level, even to the least of our brethren, that violence will eventually be brought home to us, in one form or another (as it already has, school shootings, etc). I can tell by peoples responses here that even though they feel justified in certain ways towards the death penality, there is some ambiviance towards it. This is intuition speaking, the gut reaction saying, this is not consistant with what I believe.
And don't even get me started on pro-dp "Christ"-ians. Apparently, no one was listening when Jesus gave his whole pacifism speel. Poor guy, he tried. It just didn't quite stick....
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Should drug use and the selling of drugs be 'ok' because one is poor or of an ethnic minority? YIKES!!!! That reasoning could do away with most of the laws we have because they all 'criminalize' or discriminate against someone - mostly people WHO DO BAD THINGS!!!!
Prisons reflect society's value system that says - do bad things and you do time, do really bad things and you might be executed, do good things and you can live freely.
What then if were are to have a 'civilized' society instead of a 'barbarian' one - life without parole?
Rehabilitation and back on the street?
A couple of verses of Kumbayah and some self-reflection?
Fifteen Hail Marys, Ten Our Fathers, Ten Glory-Be's and an extra couple of bucks in the collection plate?
It sounds as though you don't want any penal system at all because it leads to 'institutional violence'.
Other than the death penalty, what do you mean by institutional violence?
And since you brought it up, what did JC have to say about child molesters, serial murderers, mass murderers, drug pushers, and other folks that society is just too hard on? I've searched my memory and I don't EVER remember Sister Philip or Brother Mike or Father Berardi saying that JC said to let those people go - I don't remember reading it either.
I see this discussion expanding way beyond what I had originally envisioned, but that is good - maybe my answer lies in the bigger discussion because it is not an easy one.
Party on!
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OK, I'll bite - what do you think JC would do/say/think?
Remember, this is the same JC, son of the Big Guy who would damn you to hell for simply not believing in Him, or so his Churches teach.
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We're talking about two different concepts of God here. I don't believe God damnes anyone to hell. I believe God is Everything and that includes you, me, and all the people on Death Row. So, if you think of God as being Everything that means we're all connected and what you do to someone else has an effect on the whole. And Jesus knew that.
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The concept of God as Everything gets interesting, doesn't it, lol?
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There is no absolute concept of right and wrong. What is right for me at this moment in time might not be right for you. And I know what you're going to say about that, lol. That doesn't mean that we let people molest little kids because they think it's okay. It's not okay for the kids and it's not okay for us to let that happen, so we have to stop it.
Sarah says I should just tell you that it's as fruitless for me to try to explain this to you as it would be for you to try to explain that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally to a bunch of Pentecostals, lol.
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The truth is out there.
Fight the future.
I want to believe.
*doo doo doo doo doo doo...* (that was the X-Files theme, in case my musical stylings aren't clear, lol.)
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