I will actually confess to posting stuff without a beta a good bit of the time, if it's a short story without a great deal of complexity or something that's very linear or uncomplicated, just because I write those to satisfy a quick itch and I don't want to waste a beta's time on picking at it! I do go over those extra carefully, though, and I will ask for a second set of eyes if I see any warning signs...
For something with any level of emotional, thematic, or plot complexity, though, forget it -- beta all the way. Sometimes multiple betas. Sometimes multiple drafts. Sometimes multiple drafts, multiple betas, and I still hate it so much that it doesn't get posted. *g*
There's a fanfic-specific item that's on my list, and that's canon-compatibility. Nobody has all the canon in their head and sometimes it's the throwaway details that trip you up. Or I spot an item that relates to an episode that isn't mentioned and say, "hey, this bit reminds me of this?"
I'm more likely to seek a beta than I used to be, but I must confess I have posted quite long fics without one. Admittedly, those are usually fics that have had a 'rest' period before the final edit to give me some perspective. If I'm unhappy with something, I'll ask for a beta, or if I'm trying something I'm not sure is working and I want an outside opinion. Bt ultimately- fanfic is stuff I'm writing for fun, and if I'm satisfied with it, that's good enough for me. Original fic is something else entirely!
Oooh, good point about the canon-compatibility. I will confess that the stuff I write is generally only loosely connected to canon anyway, so. *g* But yeah, I'm totally not the person to be a canon beta, mostly because (despite having mainlined the whole damn series in like five months) it just doesn't stick for me -- I have the world's worst memory, and therefore if I contradict canon it's either deliberate (because let's face it, TPTB aren't exactly the best at not contradicting canon) or because I've just forgotten something. *g*
And yeah, I'd say I post about half my stuff unbeta'd -- mostly because I've learned how to look out for the Big Ten and avoid them during the writing process, but if I do sense the presence of any of them, I'll often call for another set of eyes.
See, I *love* plot. I love nice tightly constructed plot. I adore it when the throwaway detail in scene 1 becomes the key to saving the planet in the climax. And that's why I JUMP UP AND DOWN YELLING OBSCENITIES AT THE SCREEN when Teal'c says you can't cloak a ha'tak in Deus Ex Machina. ARRGHH! (Because Apophis cloaks a whole fleet in Serpent's Venom, and that is not the kind of tactical detail that Tealc could possibly forget!)
Anyway a whole bunch of my fics have started with me saying- "how- how- can I possibly turn this into something that makes some kind of sense?". And I start worrying at it, trying to come up with the missing pieces to make the whole actually coherent. Probably the two biggest challenges I tackled there were fics for Point of No Return (most. incoherent. plot. ever.) and for Threads
( ... )
And see, this is why I adore your writing, because you write stuff that integrates with canon so beautifully and makes everything suddenly make sense. And I envy that like nobody's business, because I can't do that at all. *g* (And boy howdy, does SG-1 need somebody to do that for it. A lot.)
We use the word 'beta' as shorthand for 'beta editor'...
I was introduced to the term as 'beta reader,' which I think has a bit of a different context, more like a beta tester in software. "Use it, see what works, where there are bugs, and if you're thorough, tell me what you think works well, also."
That said, interesting meta. Yes, questions from your beta are good, because they let you know what you haven't conveyed. Suggestions on how to fix things are sometimes good, but I wish I could remember who said that other people can find problems for you, but it's always up to you to fix them. More coffee.
Huh. I've always heard it as shorthand for "beta editor", not "beta reader". I wonder if that's a by-fandom thing? (And I wonder how much it affects what you're looking for in a beta/what you tend to provide as a beta, too.)
I know I'm always looking way more for an editor's services, but in a broad-picture kind of way, not in a copyeditor sort of way. Which is why ivorygates is the ideal beta, because she calls me on everything I'm trying to gloss over!
Hmm. I started in fandom in... Somewhere around 1997, so about ten years now, in a group that included ST:Voy and TOS, and HL. My view of beta reading came from that group (Slash and Burn was the name of the list), who were interested in good writing, good storytelling. My ideal betas call me both on the big idea problems, the plot holes, and the wonky sentences, noting typos as they see them. When I last beta'ed something for , it was, in fact one sentence that had a big-picture effect for me. mandragora1, whitecrow1, and z_rane were part of that old list, and I owe them a ton for making me a better writer, both in the mechanics and the bigger picture.
So I think we're talking about the same thing, but using a different metaphor. I view the beta as my first audience, or user. Like an editor, they read it cold, and like a software/hardware beta tester, report back on the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I seriously wonder if that's a by-fandom thing. I always heard it as shorthand for "beta editor", and I'm wondering if that might have been an anime/RPG fannish thing instead of a western media fannish thing. (Sometimes my fannish roots bring me to different conclusions than they otherwise might.)
First off, YES, negotiating with a new beta IS a delicate process. ::clutches without_me possessively. MINEMINEMINE, ALLMINE.:: ahem.
Your 3 questions are good, and I use them when I beta for someone, especially someone new, but oftentimes, when I send things out FOR beta, I don't know #1, not really, and the beta's reactions often help me clarify that.
I know certain people have specific strengths, eg, character, voice, canon, etc, and I tend to read their reactions accordingly, even if I'm not asking them explicitly for that.
Gah, I feel the need to go hug everyone who's ever read my stuff and made helpful comments, because it's such a blessing to have them all around. So, hey, have a hug. And a cupcake. =)
Oh, Lord, yes, a good beta is worth her weight in gold. Or other precious metals. *g*
Everyone does really have strengths as a beta, and that's something I didn't touch on as much, but it's something I'm really aware of when I pick who I ask to beta -- sometimes I need a character check, sometimes a flow-and-feel check, etc. It all depends on what I'm unhappy with -- I usually have a really good sense that something's wrong, but not what it is necessarily, you know? I can find the zip code, but the exact address of the problem often eludes :)
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For something with any level of emotional, thematic, or plot complexity, though, forget it -- beta all the way. Sometimes multiple betas. Sometimes multiple drafts. Sometimes multiple drafts, multiple betas, and I still hate it so much that it doesn't get posted. *g*
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I'm more likely to seek a beta than I used to be, but I must confess I have posted quite long fics without one. Admittedly, those are usually fics that have had a 'rest' period before the final edit to give me some perspective. If I'm unhappy with something, I'll ask for a beta, or if I'm trying something I'm not sure is working and I want an outside opinion. Bt ultimately- fanfic is stuff I'm writing for fun, and if I'm satisfied with it, that's good enough for me. Original fic is something else entirely!
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And yeah, I'd say I post about half my stuff unbeta'd -- mostly because I've learned how to look out for the Big Ten and avoid them during the writing process, but if I do sense the presence of any of them, I'll often call for another set of eyes.
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Anyway a whole bunch of my fics have started with me saying- "how- how- can I possibly turn this into something that makes some kind of sense?". And I start worrying at it, trying to come up with the missing pieces to make the whole actually coherent. Probably the two biggest challenges I tackled there were fics for Point of No Return (most. incoherent. plot. ever.) and for Threads ( ... )
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I was introduced to the term as 'beta reader,' which I think has a bit of a different context, more like a beta tester in software. "Use it, see what works, where there are bugs, and if you're thorough, tell me what you think works well, also."
That said, interesting meta. Yes, questions from your beta are good, because they let you know what you haven't conveyed. Suggestions on how to fix things are sometimes good, but I wish I could remember who said that other people can find problems for you, but it's always up to you to fix them. More coffee.
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More coffee.
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I know I'm always looking way more for an editor's services, but in a broad-picture kind of way, not in a copyeditor sort of way. Which is why ivorygates is the ideal beta, because she calls me on everything I'm trying to gloss over!
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So I think we're talking about the same thing, but using a different metaphor. I view the beta as my first audience, or user. Like an editor, they read it cold, and like a software/hardware beta tester, report back on the good, the bad, and the ugly.
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I've never heard "beta editor", though - it's always been "beta reader".
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Your 3 questions are good, and I use them when I beta for someone, especially someone new, but oftentimes, when I send things out FOR beta, I don't know #1, not really, and the beta's reactions often help me clarify that.
I know certain people have specific strengths, eg, character, voice, canon, etc, and I tend to read their reactions accordingly, even if I'm not asking them explicitly for that.
Gah, I feel the need to go hug everyone who's ever read my stuff and made helpful comments, because it's such a blessing to have them all around. So, hey, have a hug. And a cupcake. =)
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Everyone does really have strengths as a beta, and that's something I didn't touch on as much, but it's something I'm really aware of when I pick who I ask to beta -- sometimes I need a character check, sometimes a flow-and-feel check, etc. It all depends on what I'm unhappy with -- I usually have a really good sense that something's wrong, but not what it is necessarily, you know? I can find the zip code, but the exact address of the problem often eludes :)
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