AD&D 4e, dare I fence-sit?
In response to:
http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/dd-4es-out-and-its-awful-heres-why/
So I'm about to try my hand at 4e, I shudder with a mixture of excitement and loathing. I'm a younger gamer, who was raised by older gamers to enjoy the traditional juices of fantasy- I played a little 3e in highschool, but was turned off by the sheer complexity of it and understood why my RPG parents had refused to upgrade, it was messy and turned everything I thought I knew about the setting around- I actually liked THAC0, it made sense to me- not to mention that most of the players of 3e were young, munchkins and didn't know crap about settings, only rules that I found overly 'open' to too much interpritation (which lead to confusion and the constant need for the GM to put a foot down on small things, or even the GM being overrun by players who knew how to word the sentences well enough that they simply broke the rules and the GM didn't know any better). But as a younger player, when you're still back playing 2e and all your friends and social groups play 3e (oh, I'm sorry, 3.5 >.<; ) it can be a little irksome. When 4e came out my sister hissed and retreated from its windows, much as she had with 3e quoting 'how it was just yet another money grabbing attempt and nothing would ever be as good as 2e' and paling as WotC turned undead across her room, keeping her trapped in the non-expansive, now vastly unplayed, forgotten heart of 2e.
The other players in my groups began to talk about 4e. They spoke about it as though something vile and dark had been spewed from the bowels of Wizards' underbelly, as though 4e were a slimey undead worm, crawling out from the pits of the vilest evils, hoping to suckle at the over-ripe breast of the ever pregnant World of Warcraft and leech away some of the creamy life-blood that made it so popular. It was an atrocity- worse, it was a balantent grab for money, a toss-out of all that was holy and pure with previous editions. But they'd still spend $150 bucks on the core books and go home and play it from now on and move forward with the edition.
Why? Why you may ask, because it's new and it's shiny. That's why. I sighed and moaned and thought about it on my own for a long time, until the volumes were released and the full impact of what WotC had truly unleashed hit me.
For me, finally giving in and upgrading to 3e is no longer an option- it will all be 4e from now on, and finding 3e will be hard enough as many of the players with it will definately not be upgrading and copies have already vanished into the dark ether of the cosmos. But, and the very thought itself was repungent to me, I could always give 4e a shot.
There were aspects of 4e that I found appealing, the monsters were easier to manage, combat was apparently ten-times quicker and characters were easier to streamline and make. And then I opened the books and started reading.
The races weren't too big a jump (aside from the balantent rip-off blood elves ((why the fuck did they have their own race instead of just being called 'fairy-elves?' for what they are?!?!)) from WoW,) and tieflings as a core race as well as dragonborn were a great addition (people play them all the fuckin' time anyway, its /easier/ to have them as core from the start I think,) gnomes were no longer wasting space- despite their quirks, I always found them a much 'limited' race with few advantages and too many disadvantages- and nothing much had changed a great deal from 2e in terms of architypes I felt.
And then there were the classes. Oh Gods, the classes. I'm still not sure whether I want to weep or laugh- honestly I can't decide if I'm angry, happy or just so deeply horrified that I don't want to know- the sheer streamlining of the classes didn't hit me until a few pages in when the thought occured to me 'hey, this is really close to being "a human fighter" as one's entire character concept- that is, the way D&D (original) was explained to me' There's room- somewhat- to move with these highly linear models but not a whole lot, and I can see feats needing to be invented as there is crap all variety. I'm sorry to say I skimmed the wizard spells- earlier rants by other players made me literally afraid to read them.
But at the end of the day it's truly hard for me to actually put down whether or not I did in fact like or dislike the changes. There are a lot of bad things, but also a fair few good things that I think will make the game fun. Has it turned ultra dungeon-bash? I think it has, moreso than before, but I also think 'that's D&D' if I want a game with better storytelling and more social combat, I'll play WoD.
Do I think that 4e changes what it used to mean to be D&D? Somewhat; in that the system is dumbed down, there is a lot more MMORPG crap in to attract younger people, and a lot of good things that made D&D fun have been raped up the ass by a troll with herpes- but overall, I'm still willing to give it a try. I think it has potential and the chance to develope and move in a different direction. I'm going to give it a shot and see if I don't survive the idea.
http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/dd-4es-out-and-its-awful-heres-why/
So I'm about to try my hand at 4e, I shudder with a mixture of excitement and loathing. I'm a younger gamer, who was raised by older gamers to enjoy the traditional juices of fantasy- I played a little 3e in highschool, but was turned off by the sheer complexity of it and understood why my RPG parents had refused to upgrade, it was messy and turned everything I thought I knew about the setting around- I actually liked THAC0, it made sense to me- not to mention that most of the players of 3e were young, munchkins and didn't know crap about settings, only rules that I found overly 'open' to too much interpritation (which lead to confusion and the constant need for the GM to put a foot down on small things, or even the GM being overrun by players who knew how to word the sentences well enough that they simply broke the rules and the GM didn't know any better). But as a younger player, when you're still back playing 2e and all your friends and social groups play 3e (oh, I'm sorry, 3.5 >.<; ) it can be a little irksome. When 4e came out my sister hissed and retreated from its windows, much as she had with 3e quoting 'how it was just yet another money grabbing attempt and nothing would ever be as good as 2e' and paling as WotC turned undead across her room, keeping her trapped in the non-expansive, now vastly unplayed, forgotten heart of 2e.
The other players in my groups began to talk about 4e. They spoke about it as though something vile and dark had been spewed from the bowels of Wizards' underbelly, as though 4e were a slimey undead worm, crawling out from the pits of the vilest evils, hoping to suckle at the over-ripe breast of the ever pregnant World of Warcraft and leech away some of the creamy life-blood that made it so popular. It was an atrocity- worse, it was a balantent grab for money, a toss-out of all that was holy and pure with previous editions. But they'd still spend $150 bucks on the core books and go home and play it from now on and move forward with the edition.
Why? Why you may ask, because it's new and it's shiny. That's why. I sighed and moaned and thought about it on my own for a long time, until the volumes were released and the full impact of what WotC had truly unleashed hit me.
For me, finally giving in and upgrading to 3e is no longer an option- it will all be 4e from now on, and finding 3e will be hard enough as many of the players with it will definately not be upgrading and copies have already vanished into the dark ether of the cosmos. But, and the very thought itself was repungent to me, I could always give 4e a shot.
There were aspects of 4e that I found appealing, the monsters were easier to manage, combat was apparently ten-times quicker and characters were easier to streamline and make. And then I opened the books and started reading.
The races weren't too big a jump (aside from the balantent rip-off blood elves ((why the fuck did they have their own race instead of just being called 'fairy-elves?' for what they are?!?!)) from WoW,) and tieflings as a core race as well as dragonborn were a great addition (people play them all the fuckin' time anyway, its /easier/ to have them as core from the start I think,) gnomes were no longer wasting space- despite their quirks, I always found them a much 'limited' race with few advantages and too many disadvantages- and nothing much had changed a great deal from 2e in terms of architypes I felt.
And then there were the classes. Oh Gods, the classes. I'm still not sure whether I want to weep or laugh- honestly I can't decide if I'm angry, happy or just so deeply horrified that I don't want to know- the sheer streamlining of the classes didn't hit me until a few pages in when the thought occured to me 'hey, this is really close to being "a human fighter" as one's entire character concept- that is, the way D&D (original) was explained to me' There's room- somewhat- to move with these highly linear models but not a whole lot, and I can see feats needing to be invented as there is crap all variety. I'm sorry to say I skimmed the wizard spells- earlier rants by other players made me literally afraid to read them.
But at the end of the day it's truly hard for me to actually put down whether or not I did in fact like or dislike the changes. There are a lot of bad things, but also a fair few good things that I think will make the game fun. Has it turned ultra dungeon-bash? I think it has, moreso than before, but I also think 'that's D&D' if I want a game with better storytelling and more social combat, I'll play WoD.
Do I think that 4e changes what it used to mean to be D&D? Somewhat; in that the system is dumbed down, there is a lot more MMORPG crap in to attract younger people, and a lot of good things that made D&D fun have been raped up the ass by a troll with herpes- but overall, I'm still willing to give it a try. I think it has potential and the chance to develope and move in a different direction. I'm going to give it a shot and see if I don't survive the idea.