A response to the trolling sockpuppet luminawoodwitch
A note from sunvenus: This is my (long-winded) response to the trolling sockpuppet who came to play “beat up the FMPPH Traddie” in response to this post I made a few days ago. I felt my response deserved its own post as I make several relevant points about fluff bunnies and their antics, the use of language & labels in magick and paganism, and what paganism actually is all about. It’ll be good reference material; have tagged it as a resource to refer back to when dealing with bunnies.
The troll’s comment in its entirety can be found here.
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I notice you didn’t address any of the key points. Instead, you resort to crying about how bad you feel and how mean you think I am, and making asinine assumptions on what you imagine my mindset to be (when I clearly explained it in my previous post to you, although it is now apparent that you didn’t actually read- or comprehend- what was written). Such tactics are typical of the type of folk I’ve been speaking of all these years. So if there is to be any further dialogue between us, please address my points, and don’t gripe about how persecuted & how “poorly done by” you feel from reading my opinions. A healthy adult knows that no one can make someone else feel anything they don’t wish to feel. I can’t make you feel bad, it is your choice to feel rotten. Nor do I choose to feel angry with you for your snide comments and your seemingly deliberate decision to be obtuse; instead I can detachedly observe your actions & wild speculations and use your lashing out as an example to teach others. (In fact, I feel damn good and self-satisfied for I have had an extremely productive morning.)
By your own explanation, you are indeed a troll and a sockpuppet of some sort. Since you seem unfamiliar with the concepts, I’ll explain them. A sockpuppet is an alternate LiveJournal (or alternate ID for whatever other type of online forums there are) account that one logs in with to use to give the impression that the OP has supporters from amongst other people, when in fact it just one person posting under several names (sounds fairly schizoid and cowardly, doesn’t it?). A troll is a person who comes to a particular forum (or group as this may also occur in meatspace) to either post (or otherwise create havoc) for the sake of disturbing the dovecote, or to rally against an imagined or perceived enemy in support of a friend. If this isn’t a sockpuppet account of the OP, then it is one of their little bunnypals openly admitting it is using a new, duplicate account (sockpuppet) with which to read & post. Thus it also qualifies as trolling as it is highly unlikely that you simply stumbled across my journal out of the blue, in the time frame that you did, and also suspect as you have no other friends or communities listed on this brand new account. The scenario I think is most likely is that your pal Petra Rabbit whinged to Flopsie, Mopsie and Cottontail at the hutch about how it is being treated ever so poorly, and suggested that somebunny please come beat up the mean old traddie, which is a typical rallying cry for neato-pagan trolls. (“ZOMG persecution!!!111!! Wictims to the rescue!”) Or maybe you took it upon yourself to attempt to correct me on behalf of your warrenmate in some bid to be an avenging neato-pagan angel of justice… which again, qualifies as trolling behaviour. Moreover, it could be- as I speculated before- that the original bunny is you, under this new name, which makes you a sockpuppet & troll directly. Either way- no matter what your alleged intent may be with this new account- you are both a sockpuppet and a troll... and a liar on top of that. (Anyone with even a basic familiarity with magick will know that a liar is constitutionally incapable of any real attainment in esoteric matters. That's why most dabblers remain dabblers; they lack the honesty to admit they don't have what it takes to really adhere to a system of study & practice.)
So tell me- if you are capable of being honest- how did you really locate my journal entry? C'mon, tell the truth. :-) I suspect you won’t say as pretty much any answer will prove me right. Gods forbid the mean old traddie is right about something else!
labelling me obviously serves your purpose of putting yourself above everyone
What silly speculation, although it is likely a projection of low self-esteem on your part. I label myself, you others, objects and abstracts as I see fit, and not out of any issue with my self-esteem. Labels are part of human languages. As a magician, language and its usage is integral to my practice. Words have power; they are symbolic and that concept is reflected in our methods, as indicated by the use of words like “grimoire”- French for “grammar”, and referring to a book of instructions for a particular type of working, and “spell” referring to the practice of- literally “spelling out”- committing to paper and then enacting a specific formula for attainment of some objective. We label objects, people, feelings, ideas, etc. to designate and classify in order to form cohesion and be precisely descriptive when expressing ideas, objects and concepts and our perceptions thereof. I know many newcomers & untutored hangers-on to paganism & magick dislike labels, usually because they don’t yet understand the full vocabulary of the various systems & traditions under the pagan umbrella, and don’t yet realise the power of words and the ideas behind schools of thought such as sigil creation and kabbalah/qaballa/qabalah etc. that utilise the inherent power in words. Because of these unlearned lessons, they tend to think they are entitled to specific labels (e.g. “pagan” “Wiccan” witch” “priest/ess”, etc.) yet they usually have not done anything to actually earn those labels.
Bearing this in mind, the one thing that many pagan paths do tend to have in common is that they are based in orthopraxy, not orthodoxy. One must DO something to be something in the various paths of paganism and magick, not merely claim to be something: right action versus right speech. (Sorry, this might be too technical an explanation to a newcomer or fadcrafter, but it builds my point.) Saying you are something relevant to paganism- for instance calling yourself Wiccan when you’ve never been initiated into Gardnerian, Alexandrian or Mohsian craft- is akin to claiming to be the PM of Australia when you’ve not been elected to that office, or claiming to be a Catholic Priest without having actually undergone the requisite training and work required for that station. It doesn’t matter if you wish really hard, or loudly proclaim yourself something far and wide- if you’ve not met the community standards and not done the actual work, you don’t qualify. Conversely, if you do meet the community standards and have done the work for some defined position or attainment, then you do. (And if you think community in paganism and magick is irrelevant, then you are definitely not exploring the concept of spirituality correctly.) Therefore, if I call you a fluff bunny it is because you are look and act like a bunny, especially in attacking me on my own journal - a place that you were not invited to join, and utilising arguments based on misunderstood concepts that aren’t grounded in fact. (Do you even know what the term “fluff bunny” means? It has a very precise, explicit definition referring to someone who is wilfully and deliberately ignorant.)
The fact that you are bunnyishly haranguing me on my personal journal rather than in a public community is what still baffles me. Your claim to be merely a meandering, innocent fellow pagan who just happened to stumble across this great injustice is illogical. You certainly don’t conduct yourself as if you really were a person interested in my POV even though it differs from yours, and with a decade of familiarity with LJ: you didn’t introduce yourself, you didn’t ask if you could friend me… rather you barged in uninvited and began to shit on the floor. Would YOU tolerate such antics in your home, or in your journal? Can you not see the trollish perception your actions suggest? Anyway…
I don’t have to put myself “over” you or anyone. My holding and expressing an opinion has nothing to do with how I feel I relate to others in some sort of pecking order. All that is occurring here is that I am expressing my own opinion on my own journal. I have high standards. I realise that newcomers to paganism and those who have an incomplete understanding of the various pagan paths like to imagine that paganism is one united religion, fully communist, always nicey-nice and without those icky, mean, evil hierarchies and standards. However, I feel that hierarchies and standards are usually good & functional. Gods forbid you are a parent without a sense of authority or set of standards and attempt to raise children to be productive, discriminating (using that word in its original meaning, not in the pejorative, so don’t get your knickers in a knot) and able to make sober & reasoned judgements about people, actions, situations & behaviours. I shudder to think how that would end.
Thirdly, I don't openly attack and call people names for having an opinion. It seems to be a past-time(sic) of yours...maybe you should take up needlework or something?
Why thank you ever so much for spending so much time & energy worrying about my well-being, and utilising your christianised newage paganity overview to judge the state of my soul! I can always use the goodwill (even if it is misguided good will) of even newagers, christopagans and party pagans; such energy- in the hands of trained magick practitioners- can fuel other works. So I appreciate the boost, especially as I plan on doing a mini-retirement over the Holy Days and will be working with the Bornless Rite for three days running; the rigors of magical retirements are such that I can always use a bit of extra energy! Ta!
As a matter of fact, I do do needlepoint, cross-stitch to be specific (I mentioned hobbies in a response to you, and you would know what they were if you’d actually read my journal, like the alleged “new friend” who “just happened “ to stumble across my journal would likely know.) In fact I am just finishing up the most lovely set of quarter hangings for the Lodge; took me three months to stitch the lot and I hope to consecrate them over the Holy Days this week, kudos for me! As for my pastimes, they are plentiful and enjoyable. Calling fluffies on their stupid antics is just one of them, and it is good exercise as it allows me to write and stretch my mind on things that interest me. Plus it makes excellent reference material for those many times when someone asks me why particular things fluffies do are so irksome. Chances are I have some thought-out, reasoned response to that somewhere, this journal is getting pretty filled up after almost five years of use. But gods forbid a pagan & magician has standards and opinions and elects to express those on their own journal- at least according to you. Would you like a pair of jackboots & and some thumb screws to go along with your desire for censorship?
By the way, pot? Meet kettle. You are berating me for having and expressing an opinion on my own journal. Do you really want to keep attempting to ride that high horse? You’ve been thrown a few times now, maybe it’s time to walk your pony back to the stables and take up a new pastime, such as needlepoint, or better yet, reading something by authors other than those who espouse newage twaddle. At least I am speaking in my own space, rather than seeking attention in a place I wasn’t invited.
You're(sic) attitude in now(sic) way constitutes what Paganismn(sic) is, regardless of how old or practised you are.
In fact my attitude and approach does indeed constitute what paganism is. Do you even know the correct definition of paganism? (I can think of a few definitions at the moment, and none of them fully or accurately expresses the concept. However, I think you may not be playing with an up to date neo-pagan dictionary; the “one united non-J/C/I religion” is outdated and wildly inaccurate.) In other words, if you are looking for happy, handholding, skipping, Jesus-in-a-dress drivel, you are not a pagan, you are a generic neo-pagan (at best) or a newage moron (worst case scenario). But if you actually studied paganism, you’d know that most of the various paths gathered under the pagan umbrella label tend to have clearly defined codes of ethics & suggested behaviours, and their own philosophies on how to conduct ones life, most of which do not mirror the newage Christianity of generic neo-paganism and most neo-wicca. Do you think the Astruars (to pick a random example) have no standards for behaviour & codified thought, and that they’d stand for some self-proclaimed pagan outsider to tell them not to express themselves according to their standards? Better do some reading. Do you imagine that Hellenic Polytheists all worship the neato-paganised Jesus-in-a-dress gweat gawdezz? Nope, and this is why those proclaiming to be “pagan” need to find sources other than Harry Potter or cheap playgan paperbacks. Do you think just any teenybopper with a butter knife and a $ilver RavenWolf book can be considered Wiccan? In the names of all the gods, I hope not. If you say yes to any of those then I suggest re-educating yourself, starting with world history, cultural studies and basic comparative religious studies. When that is complete, only then move onto the books you find in your average pagan smellery (that attempts to pass itself off as bookstore).
David Garland brought Gavin Bone and Janet Farrah(sic) to Australia in February 2002 so obviously, this man that you quote as a great man sees something in their teachings worth bringing to our shores and, as such, I respect his and their 'ways' of doing things.
Please point out where I called Garfie a “great man” and where I quoted him; you assert twice in your post that I said it, so do me the courtesy of copying & pasting the precise quote where I called him a “great man”. That’s right, you can’t. What I said was: “…David Garland has been a guest in my home and is a great guy…”. Stating that I called him a “Great Man” is not only a deliberate fabrication on your part, but also suggests that I engage in fits of guru adulation or hero worship (I know many neato-pagans do this; they have a ingratiating need to worship frauds like Fiona Horne and/or the neighbourhood pervert playing at spooky occult sex). I don’t see Garfie as a guru or superhero (nor do I think he’d want anyone to see him as such), but I do admire and respect him for some of the work he has done. Not blindly, for some of our methods and standards vary. But to reiterate-I think he’s a cool bloke, and not fluffy, even though his organization (out of necessity for its overall purpose of securing legal recognitions & providing advocacy for many) caters to even the lowest common denominator which- as is common with the sinking ship called playganism or fadcraft- lists heavily to fluffy side. As for bring Big Mouthed Playgans Big Name Pagans and “important” people to Australia, my organizations have brought out particular Thelemic, Wiccan and Chaote authors & lecturers of note too. Of course, as my organizations events are usually by invitation only* and you are likely unfamiliar with the names of anyone I might mention, I shan’t name drop. (After all, I’m not Fiona Horne and don’t have to name drop to feel important. And since you don’t know of the work my organizations have engaged in, then in your mind they simply are unworthy of regard if not non-existent altogether.) Suffice it to say that being able to bring a speaker out to Australia isn’t indicative of ones level of how good a pagan they are; all it means is that one can network, organise travel, plan & secure venues, and host events. Those are rather mundane skills actually, not the exclusive bailiwick of the “important pagan leader” category.
(*As to why my organizations events are exclusive, newcomers to paganism & magick simply don’t get the level of material we present with the particular experts we sponsor, which is not a slam at being new, it is just a fact about educational & experience levels. We elect not to cater to the lowest common denominator and suffer repetition of the most basic facts; we prefer quality over quantity, and not every event in magick and paganism needs to be aimed at newbies- there must be events for advanced practitioners. But I’m sure one of your ilk will find some sort of problem with that. I’ve heard the arguments before and they are based in that bizarre form of entitlement some people have where they feel they deserve everything handed to them on a silver platter, without having done the work or put in the effort. You see it in welfare systems, and it spills into paganism via those who think that traditions are “elitist” and “exclusive”- in the pejorative sense of those words. They are- but not in a negative way; they have standards. Not everything is available to everyone. “Elite” is good, high quality; exclusive keeps out those that don’t fit into a particular paradigm. A homeowner is “elitist” (their home is theirs only) and “exclusive” (they choose to keep out those who don’t have the right to be there) by having locks on their home; do you expect us traddie types to be any less diligent? We are custodians of these teachings, we have responsibilities to train people who will use them properly and ethically. Do you want a world where those standards aren’t kept? Do you want me to give someone like Robin Fletcher the keys to sources of power that he might then use in his criminal career?)
As for Bone and Farrar (note the correct spelling of her surname) they now claim that initiations into lineaged traditions are unnecessary, and that the sun rises in the west here in Australia. (Or did you even read anything they’ve written recently, specifically Progressive Witchcraft?) Though Janet & her late husband Stewart did much for bringing a wiccanish flavour out into the public about neo-paganism, witchcraft and thus helping to spawn neo-wicca, they were initiated Alexandrians, and are revered elders in that tradition. But for Janet now to make her new assertions not only seems to me like a violation of her previous oaths, but also seems more a ploy to sell books than actually support pagan/neo-pagan mystery traditions. (And according to your own words, you support a person who some consider an oathbreaker. In that case I don’t want you anywhere near me. Pagans/magicians who hold to high standards don’t care for oathbreakers and those who cannot be trusted.)
But back to why Janet Farrar might say that initiations are outdated. You see, authors like to tell newbies to paganism that one doesn’t need teachers or covens or traditions or whatnot as that cuts into the sales of their books. By running down the traditions and group systems, authors make more money as newcomers (& the hangers-on unable or unwilling to find better sources for training) then think the various pagan paths are without standards and structure, and that traditions are valueless. This does a tremendous disservice to those seekers as they don’t get the responsible backing of a properly prepared trainer into paganism/neo-paganism and such, and thus they slip into fluffiness. (As is so clearly demonstrated by the actions of you & your little friends.) Those authors take no direct responsibility and offer no support, at least in the way that face-to-face interaction with trusted associates does. Also, books can’t pass along anything but the exoteric information; the esoteric and the heart of the matter is far more than words on a page and is experiential.
I suspect that this is all too far above your current level of understanding. Feel free to bookmark it; you may eventually want to refer back to this post as it really does contain solid advice. But for now, the majority of my journal is going to be way over your head. You can unfriend me now (EDITED TO ADD: I just checked and the trolling sockpuppet has already done so), and for the record- and you can tell thjs to jenwytch too, who friended (and like a timid bunny, quickly unfriended) my journal to post earlier- one may post to my journal anonymously, or without being a friend. It logs your IP addy and allows the post, I just have to approve them when I am available to do so.)
Now let me make sure I’ve got the gist of your posts to me:
1) I am, as an Hellenic Polytheist, Thelemite, Golden Dawn initiate, QBLH initiate, GAC ordained Bishop, ATW initiate, initiated Pagan Way witch, Neokoroi & ADF member and as student of NRMs & Reconstructive paths, to shut the fuck up on MY OWN JOURNAL, and not have a contrary opinion to yours, or to anybunnys.
2) Because I am an initiate for over two decades, and trained in several systems, and a leader of a Thelemic Order, and teacher for years in paganism, neo-paganism and magick my opinion is not as valid or accurate as that of a feel-good party pagan who thinks that The Burning Times killed 9 million Wiccans, and that “the goddess” is merely Jesus in drag.
3) That I must put away all scholarly pursuits, and embrace a weak, flavourless pap of fluff-bunny playganism in order to march in goosestep with the lowest common denominator.
Um, riiiight. Just what the fuck are you smoking? And where is your sense of pride and integrity, and healthy self-esteem, and sense of devotion and honour to the deities and/or concepts of paganism (or as much as there can be unity therein)? Think about it.
But thankyou for such an interesting insight into who you 'think' I am.
And thank you for the spiteful implication that I don’t think. My brain may be old & a bit befuddled at times, but it certainly still functions, even in the tricky-to-grasp realms of the numinous. Do bunny brains work? Let us dissect one & find out. ;-) We certainly know where to find them, thanks to their blatant advertising and sick need to be the centre of attention.
I won't be taking it on board
Your loss. As one of the signs of a fluff bunny is that particular combination of ignorance & arrogance, this categorizes you more than anything else you’ve said. How sad.
I have “taken on board” what you said- obviously- as I have taken the time to address your points, even though I vehemently disagree. I may think you a fool, but at least I gave you that measure of respect by addressing you, and by attempting to teach you a bit about my point of view, and that of other trained magicians and pagans. You should do yourself the same courtesy; you are never too old to learn something new, or to understand a new viewpoint, even if you don’t agree with it.
Look, I appreciate that you have your opinion, and I do admire your close approximation of civility when you could have been far ruder in coming to defend your friend (or your alter-ego) against the fascist meanie pooh-pooh head traditionalist. But honestly and with all due respect, until you have a better grasp on the matters to which I refer, you will find yourself fuming over the contents of my journal. Perhaps it is best to just walk away now, but please do check in when & if you grow a bit and see where I am coming from. You may not agree with me on all things even later, but I am sure a few years and some actual responsibility for training in lineaged groups or organised systems (if you elect to study thus) might make you more appreciative of my POV.
The troll’s comment in its entirety can be found here.
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I notice you didn’t address any of the key points. Instead, you resort to crying about how bad you feel and how mean you think I am, and making asinine assumptions on what you imagine my mindset to be (when I clearly explained it in my previous post to you, although it is now apparent that you didn’t actually read- or comprehend- what was written). Such tactics are typical of the type of folk I’ve been speaking of all these years. So if there is to be any further dialogue between us, please address my points, and don’t gripe about how persecuted & how “poorly done by” you feel from reading my opinions. A healthy adult knows that no one can make someone else feel anything they don’t wish to feel. I can’t make you feel bad, it is your choice to feel rotten. Nor do I choose to feel angry with you for your snide comments and your seemingly deliberate decision to be obtuse; instead I can detachedly observe your actions & wild speculations and use your lashing out as an example to teach others. (In fact, I feel damn good and self-satisfied for I have had an extremely productive morning.)
By your own explanation, you are indeed a troll and a sockpuppet of some sort. Since you seem unfamiliar with the concepts, I’ll explain them. A sockpuppet is an alternate LiveJournal (or alternate ID for whatever other type of online forums there are) account that one logs in with to use to give the impression that the OP has supporters from amongst other people, when in fact it just one person posting under several names (sounds fairly schizoid and cowardly, doesn’t it?). A troll is a person who comes to a particular forum (or group as this may also occur in meatspace) to either post (or otherwise create havoc) for the sake of disturbing the dovecote, or to rally against an imagined or perceived enemy in support of a friend. If this isn’t a sockpuppet account of the OP, then it is one of their little bunnypals openly admitting it is using a new, duplicate account (sockpuppet) with which to read & post. Thus it also qualifies as trolling as it is highly unlikely that you simply stumbled across my journal out of the blue, in the time frame that you did, and also suspect as you have no other friends or communities listed on this brand new account. The scenario I think is most likely is that your pal Petra Rabbit whinged to Flopsie, Mopsie and Cottontail at the hutch about how it is being treated ever so poorly, and suggested that somebunny please come beat up the mean old traddie, which is a typical rallying cry for neato-pagan trolls. (“ZOMG persecution!!!111!! Wictims to the rescue!”) Or maybe you took it upon yourself to attempt to correct me on behalf of your warrenmate in some bid to be an avenging neato-pagan angel of justice… which again, qualifies as trolling behaviour. Moreover, it could be- as I speculated before- that the original bunny is you, under this new name, which makes you a sockpuppet & troll directly. Either way- no matter what your alleged intent may be with this new account- you are both a sockpuppet and a troll... and a liar on top of that. (Anyone with even a basic familiarity with magick will know that a liar is constitutionally incapable of any real attainment in esoteric matters. That's why most dabblers remain dabblers; they lack the honesty to admit they don't have what it takes to really adhere to a system of study & practice.)
So tell me- if you are capable of being honest- how did you really locate my journal entry? C'mon, tell the truth. :-) I suspect you won’t say as pretty much any answer will prove me right. Gods forbid the mean old traddie is right about something else!
labelling me obviously serves your purpose of putting yourself above everyone
What silly speculation, although it is likely a projection of low self-esteem on your part. I label myself, you others, objects and abstracts as I see fit, and not out of any issue with my self-esteem. Labels are part of human languages. As a magician, language and its usage is integral to my practice. Words have power; they are symbolic and that concept is reflected in our methods, as indicated by the use of words like “grimoire”- French for “grammar”, and referring to a book of instructions for a particular type of working, and “spell” referring to the practice of- literally “spelling out”- committing to paper and then enacting a specific formula for attainment of some objective. We label objects, people, feelings, ideas, etc. to designate and classify in order to form cohesion and be precisely descriptive when expressing ideas, objects and concepts and our perceptions thereof. I know many newcomers & untutored hangers-on to paganism & magick dislike labels, usually because they don’t yet understand the full vocabulary of the various systems & traditions under the pagan umbrella, and don’t yet realise the power of words and the ideas behind schools of thought such as sigil creation and kabbalah/qaballa/qabalah etc. that utilise the inherent power in words. Because of these unlearned lessons, they tend to think they are entitled to specific labels (e.g. “pagan” “Wiccan” witch” “priest/ess”, etc.) yet they usually have not done anything to actually earn those labels.
Bearing this in mind, the one thing that many pagan paths do tend to have in common is that they are based in orthopraxy, not orthodoxy. One must DO something to be something in the various paths of paganism and magick, not merely claim to be something: right action versus right speech. (Sorry, this might be too technical an explanation to a newcomer or fadcrafter, but it builds my point.) Saying you are something relevant to paganism- for instance calling yourself Wiccan when you’ve never been initiated into Gardnerian, Alexandrian or Mohsian craft- is akin to claiming to be the PM of Australia when you’ve not been elected to that office, or claiming to be a Catholic Priest without having actually undergone the requisite training and work required for that station. It doesn’t matter if you wish really hard, or loudly proclaim yourself something far and wide- if you’ve not met the community standards and not done the actual work, you don’t qualify. Conversely, if you do meet the community standards and have done the work for some defined position or attainment, then you do. (And if you think community in paganism and magick is irrelevant, then you are definitely not exploring the concept of spirituality correctly.) Therefore, if I call you a fluff bunny it is because you are look and act like a bunny, especially in attacking me on my own journal - a place that you were not invited to join, and utilising arguments based on misunderstood concepts that aren’t grounded in fact. (Do you even know what the term “fluff bunny” means? It has a very precise, explicit definition referring to someone who is wilfully and deliberately ignorant.)
The fact that you are bunnyishly haranguing me on my personal journal rather than in a public community is what still baffles me. Your claim to be merely a meandering, innocent fellow pagan who just happened to stumble across this great injustice is illogical. You certainly don’t conduct yourself as if you really were a person interested in my POV even though it differs from yours, and with a decade of familiarity with LJ: you didn’t introduce yourself, you didn’t ask if you could friend me… rather you barged in uninvited and began to shit on the floor. Would YOU tolerate such antics in your home, or in your journal? Can you not see the trollish perception your actions suggest? Anyway…
I don’t have to put myself “over” you or anyone. My holding and expressing an opinion has nothing to do with how I feel I relate to others in some sort of pecking order. All that is occurring here is that I am expressing my own opinion on my own journal. I have high standards. I realise that newcomers to paganism and those who have an incomplete understanding of the various pagan paths like to imagine that paganism is one united religion, fully communist, always nicey-nice and without those icky, mean, evil hierarchies and standards. However, I feel that hierarchies and standards are usually good & functional. Gods forbid you are a parent without a sense of authority or set of standards and attempt to raise children to be productive, discriminating (using that word in its original meaning, not in the pejorative, so don’t get your knickers in a knot) and able to make sober & reasoned judgements about people, actions, situations & behaviours. I shudder to think how that would end.
Thirdly, I don't openly attack and call people names for having an opinion. It seems to be a past-time(sic) of yours...maybe you should take up needlework or something?
Why thank you ever so much for spending so much time & energy worrying about my well-being, and utilising your christianised newage paganity overview to judge the state of my soul! I can always use the goodwill (even if it is misguided good will) of even newagers, christopagans and party pagans; such energy- in the hands of trained magick practitioners- can fuel other works. So I appreciate the boost, especially as I plan on doing a mini-retirement over the Holy Days and will be working with the Bornless Rite for three days running; the rigors of magical retirements are such that I can always use a bit of extra energy! Ta!
As a matter of fact, I do do needlepoint, cross-stitch to be specific (I mentioned hobbies in a response to you, and you would know what they were if you’d actually read my journal, like the alleged “new friend” who “just happened “ to stumble across my journal would likely know.) In fact I am just finishing up the most lovely set of quarter hangings for the Lodge; took me three months to stitch the lot and I hope to consecrate them over the Holy Days this week, kudos for me! As for my pastimes, they are plentiful and enjoyable. Calling fluffies on their stupid antics is just one of them, and it is good exercise as it allows me to write and stretch my mind on things that interest me. Plus it makes excellent reference material for those many times when someone asks me why particular things fluffies do are so irksome. Chances are I have some thought-out, reasoned response to that somewhere, this journal is getting pretty filled up after almost five years of use. But gods forbid a pagan & magician has standards and opinions and elects to express those on their own journal- at least according to you. Would you like a pair of jackboots & and some thumb screws to go along with your desire for censorship?
By the way, pot? Meet kettle. You are berating me for having and expressing an opinion on my own journal. Do you really want to keep attempting to ride that high horse? You’ve been thrown a few times now, maybe it’s time to walk your pony back to the stables and take up a new pastime, such as needlepoint, or better yet, reading something by authors other than those who espouse newage twaddle. At least I am speaking in my own space, rather than seeking attention in a place I wasn’t invited.
You're(sic) attitude in now(sic) way constitutes what Paganismn(sic) is, regardless of how old or practised you are.
In fact my attitude and approach does indeed constitute what paganism is. Do you even know the correct definition of paganism? (I can think of a few definitions at the moment, and none of them fully or accurately expresses the concept. However, I think you may not be playing with an up to date neo-pagan dictionary; the “one united non-J/C/I religion” is outdated and wildly inaccurate.) In other words, if you are looking for happy, handholding, skipping, Jesus-in-a-dress drivel, you are not a pagan, you are a generic neo-pagan (at best) or a newage moron (worst case scenario). But if you actually studied paganism, you’d know that most of the various paths gathered under the pagan umbrella label tend to have clearly defined codes of ethics & suggested behaviours, and their own philosophies on how to conduct ones life, most of which do not mirror the newage Christianity of generic neo-paganism and most neo-wicca. Do you think the Astruars (to pick a random example) have no standards for behaviour & codified thought, and that they’d stand for some self-proclaimed pagan outsider to tell them not to express themselves according to their standards? Better do some reading. Do you imagine that Hellenic Polytheists all worship the neato-paganised Jesus-in-a-dress gweat gawdezz? Nope, and this is why those proclaiming to be “pagan” need to find sources other than Harry Potter or cheap playgan paperbacks. Do you think just any teenybopper with a butter knife and a $ilver RavenWolf book can be considered Wiccan? In the names of all the gods, I hope not. If you say yes to any of those then I suggest re-educating yourself, starting with world history, cultural studies and basic comparative religious studies. When that is complete, only then move onto the books you find in your average pagan smellery (that attempts to pass itself off as bookstore).
David Garland brought Gavin Bone and Janet Farrah(sic) to Australia in February 2002 so obviously, this man that you quote as a great man sees something in their teachings worth bringing to our shores and, as such, I respect his and their 'ways' of doing things.
Please point out where I called Garfie a “great man” and where I quoted him; you assert twice in your post that I said it, so do me the courtesy of copying & pasting the precise quote where I called him a “great man”. That’s right, you can’t. What I said was: “…David Garland has been a guest in my home and is a great guy…”. Stating that I called him a “Great Man” is not only a deliberate fabrication on your part, but also suggests that I engage in fits of guru adulation or hero worship (I know many neato-pagans do this; they have a ingratiating need to worship frauds like Fiona Horne and/or the neighbourhood pervert playing at spooky occult sex). I don’t see Garfie as a guru or superhero (nor do I think he’d want anyone to see him as such), but I do admire and respect him for some of the work he has done. Not blindly, for some of our methods and standards vary. But to reiterate-I think he’s a cool bloke, and not fluffy, even though his organization (out of necessity for its overall purpose of securing legal recognitions & providing advocacy for many) caters to even the lowest common denominator which- as is common with the sinking ship called playganism or fadcraft- lists heavily to fluffy side. As for bring Big Mouthed Playgans Big Name Pagans and “important” people to Australia, my organizations have brought out particular Thelemic, Wiccan and Chaote authors & lecturers of note too. Of course, as my organizations events are usually by invitation only* and you are likely unfamiliar with the names of anyone I might mention, I shan’t name drop. (After all, I’m not Fiona Horne and don’t have to name drop to feel important. And since you don’t know of the work my organizations have engaged in, then in your mind they simply are unworthy of regard if not non-existent altogether.) Suffice it to say that being able to bring a speaker out to Australia isn’t indicative of ones level of how good a pagan they are; all it means is that one can network, organise travel, plan & secure venues, and host events. Those are rather mundane skills actually, not the exclusive bailiwick of the “important pagan leader” category.
(*As to why my organizations events are exclusive, newcomers to paganism & magick simply don’t get the level of material we present with the particular experts we sponsor, which is not a slam at being new, it is just a fact about educational & experience levels. We elect not to cater to the lowest common denominator and suffer repetition of the most basic facts; we prefer quality over quantity, and not every event in magick and paganism needs to be aimed at newbies- there must be events for advanced practitioners. But I’m sure one of your ilk will find some sort of problem with that. I’ve heard the arguments before and they are based in that bizarre form of entitlement some people have where they feel they deserve everything handed to them on a silver platter, without having done the work or put in the effort. You see it in welfare systems, and it spills into paganism via those who think that traditions are “elitist” and “exclusive”- in the pejorative sense of those words. They are- but not in a negative way; they have standards. Not everything is available to everyone. “Elite” is good, high quality; exclusive keeps out those that don’t fit into a particular paradigm. A homeowner is “elitist” (their home is theirs only) and “exclusive” (they choose to keep out those who don’t have the right to be there) by having locks on their home; do you expect us traddie types to be any less diligent? We are custodians of these teachings, we have responsibilities to train people who will use them properly and ethically. Do you want a world where those standards aren’t kept? Do you want me to give someone like Robin Fletcher the keys to sources of power that he might then use in his criminal career?)
As for Bone and Farrar (note the correct spelling of her surname) they now claim that initiations into lineaged traditions are unnecessary, and that the sun rises in the west here in Australia. (Or did you even read anything they’ve written recently, specifically Progressive Witchcraft?) Though Janet & her late husband Stewart did much for bringing a wiccanish flavour out into the public about neo-paganism, witchcraft and thus helping to spawn neo-wicca, they were initiated Alexandrians, and are revered elders in that tradition. But for Janet now to make her new assertions not only seems to me like a violation of her previous oaths, but also seems more a ploy to sell books than actually support pagan/neo-pagan mystery traditions. (And according to your own words, you support a person who some consider an oathbreaker. In that case I don’t want you anywhere near me. Pagans/magicians who hold to high standards don’t care for oathbreakers and those who cannot be trusted.)
But back to why Janet Farrar might say that initiations are outdated. You see, authors like to tell newbies to paganism that one doesn’t need teachers or covens or traditions or whatnot as that cuts into the sales of their books. By running down the traditions and group systems, authors make more money as newcomers (& the hangers-on unable or unwilling to find better sources for training) then think the various pagan paths are without standards and structure, and that traditions are valueless. This does a tremendous disservice to those seekers as they don’t get the responsible backing of a properly prepared trainer into paganism/neo-paganism and such, and thus they slip into fluffiness. (As is so clearly demonstrated by the actions of you & your little friends.) Those authors take no direct responsibility and offer no support, at least in the way that face-to-face interaction with trusted associates does. Also, books can’t pass along anything but the exoteric information; the esoteric and the heart of the matter is far more than words on a page and is experiential.
I suspect that this is all too far above your current level of understanding. Feel free to bookmark it; you may eventually want to refer back to this post as it really does contain solid advice. But for now, the majority of my journal is going to be way over your head. You can unfriend me now (EDITED TO ADD: I just checked and the trolling sockpuppet has already done so), and for the record- and you can tell thjs to jenwytch too, who friended (and like a timid bunny, quickly unfriended) my journal to post earlier- one may post to my journal anonymously, or without being a friend. It logs your IP addy and allows the post, I just have to approve them when I am available to do so.)
Now let me make sure I’ve got the gist of your posts to me:
1) I am, as an Hellenic Polytheist, Thelemite, Golden Dawn initiate, QBLH initiate, GAC ordained Bishop, ATW initiate, initiated Pagan Way witch, Neokoroi & ADF member and as student of NRMs & Reconstructive paths, to shut the fuck up on MY OWN JOURNAL, and not have a contrary opinion to yours, or to anybunnys.
2) Because I am an initiate for over two decades, and trained in several systems, and a leader of a Thelemic Order, and teacher for years in paganism, neo-paganism and magick my opinion is not as valid or accurate as that of a feel-good party pagan who thinks that The Burning Times killed 9 million Wiccans, and that “the goddess” is merely Jesus in drag.
3) That I must put away all scholarly pursuits, and embrace a weak, flavourless pap of fluff-bunny playganism in order to march in goosestep with the lowest common denominator.
Um, riiiight. Just what the fuck are you smoking? And where is your sense of pride and integrity, and healthy self-esteem, and sense of devotion and honour to the deities and/or concepts of paganism (or as much as there can be unity therein)? Think about it.
But thankyou for such an interesting insight into who you 'think' I am.
And thank you for the spiteful implication that I don’t think. My brain may be old & a bit befuddled at times, but it certainly still functions, even in the tricky-to-grasp realms of the numinous. Do bunny brains work? Let us dissect one & find out. ;-) We certainly know where to find them, thanks to their blatant advertising and sick need to be the centre of attention.
I won't be taking it on board
Your loss. As one of the signs of a fluff bunny is that particular combination of ignorance & arrogance, this categorizes you more than anything else you’ve said. How sad.
I have “taken on board” what you said- obviously- as I have taken the time to address your points, even though I vehemently disagree. I may think you a fool, but at least I gave you that measure of respect by addressing you, and by attempting to teach you a bit about my point of view, and that of other trained magicians and pagans. You should do yourself the same courtesy; you are never too old to learn something new, or to understand a new viewpoint, even if you don’t agree with it.
Look, I appreciate that you have your opinion, and I do admire your close approximation of civility when you could have been far ruder in coming to defend your friend (or your alter-ego) against the fascist meanie pooh-pooh head traditionalist. But honestly and with all due respect, until you have a better grasp on the matters to which I refer, you will find yourself fuming over the contents of my journal. Perhaps it is best to just walk away now, but please do check in when & if you grow a bit and see where I am coming from. You may not agree with me on all things even later, but I am sure a few years and some actual responsibility for training in lineaged groups or organised systems (if you elect to study thus) might make you more appreciative of my POV.