More pet frustration from freecycle
Aaaaggghh!
We have a member in one of my freecycle groups who is feeding stray cats. We can keep him from posting because he's basically asking for a donation to an ongoing effort, and we don't allow that, but I also wanted to tell him it's not good to feed large numbers of strays. It's one thing to feed an individual stray, but it's bad for both the cats and the neighborhood to feed feral cat colonies and dog packs.
Unfortunately, one of the mods, P___, doesn't understand that either.
This is what he posted on July 15:WANTED:CAT FOOD
WE NEED HELP FEEDING ALL THE STRAYS IN THE AREA.We`ve spent
100s of $$ and can use all kinds of cat food.They are not
fussy THANKS,JOHN
K___ realized it was inappropriate, but P___ said she didn't see anything wrong with it. This is what I said:I agree with K___. This is no different from the guy who wanted any and all clothes for the homeless people he was helping. This guy wants any and all cat food for the homeless cats he is helping. Same thing, not appropriate for the same reason. Any time there's an endless need, it becomes a charity situation, not a recycling one.
If he's feeding so many cats that he's spending hundreds of dollars, then this is a mission he's chosen to take on, and that makes it charity. It's not like feeding "a stray" that's hanging around.
Another aspect is that, personally, I feel that what this person is doing is morally wrong and I am not comfortable using freecycle to support it. Stray cats should not be fed on an ongoing basis. It just leads to more and more cats. He isn't helping them, he is contributing to the problem! His neighbors must be furious. Especially if no one has taken them in for neutering, it is extremely wrong to feed them.
So K___, your instincts were correct. This needs to be denied. Delete the pending message.
I'll write to him if you want.
Sunny
Unfortunately R___ approved it before he saw any of the correspondence, and it slipped through the cracks and no one ever wrote to the guy.
Today he posted this:Wanted:CAT AND DOG FOOD
I am trying to keep up with the strays in the area! Costing me
a fortune
Like most freecycle groups, we limit reposts of Wanteds for "the same or similar item" to once a month. So K wrote to the rest of us:This can't be approved because he asked for it on July 14th but should we bring up to him about not asking for this because of what Sunny said before about encouraging more cats to come.
My reply:OMG -- he's feeding cats AND DOGS??? Last time he just asked for cat food!
You're right, K___ -- it's not just that it's too soon. There are two important issues here. One is that he's treating this like a charity, repeatedly looking for cat food (and dog food!) for what he sees as a social mission (like the guy that wanted clothes for hundreds of homeless people). The other issue is the morality of what he's doing -- I don't feel it's right to feed strays. (The reasons are explained in my letter from last month so I won't repeat them.)
Here are some of the messages from our conversation about this guy last month. Please continue to read down below to where I have a question. ...
[messages from July 14 correspondence including the one above]
How does this sound for a message to him?John,
We cannot approve this post for two important reasons.
One is [add boilerplate about being too soon, with Wanted rule quoted]
The other is that your first message asking for cat food should not have been approved in the first place. One of the moderators approved it before the moderator team had a chance to discuss it, but we will not approve any of these requests from now on.
Freecycle is a recycling group, not a charity organization. We cannot support a continuing mission of feeding stray cats and dogs. If someone else offers pet food, you can reply to them and ask for it -- but you may not post Wanteds asking for any pet food on an ongoing basis.
Have these stray cats and dogs been neutered and released? We will not support feeding large numbers of stray animals that can breed. The more you feed them the more cats and dogs there will be. They will come from other areas to the food source and they will breed, and there will be huge packs of cats and dogs.
That is bad for everyone concerned. Unrestricted breeding of feral animals is *harmful* to the animals. It is also bad for the everyone in the neighborhood -- packs of feral animals can be very dangerous to both people and to pet cats and dogs And it is expensive for you.
Stray animals -- especially if they are able to breed -- should *never* be fed, and we will not support it by allowing you to post in this group.
Please do not attempt to post any more messages asking for cat food.
Thanks for your understanding and cooperation,
I can send it or you can, K__, but I want to make sure everyone is okay with the part starting with the fifth paragraph (about not supporting the feeding of strays). If not we can delete that part -- it's still charity and he still can't do it -- but I would like to give him some food for thought on that issue. I also hope he'll reply to my question about whether they are neutered, because if they're not, and we can find out where he is, I will report him to animal control. He said in his first post he's feeding "all the strays in the area" and has spent "100s of $$", so this is a major operation for him. If this is not a catch-spay-and-release program, and these cats and dogs are breeding, it *must* be reported.
If we can find his location -- even generally -- I'd like to report it anyway, even if he doesn't answer. Can you imagine what he is creating with this program of his? As I said in the letter, it's harmful to the animals and it's harmful to the neighborhood. Feral cats and dogs will bring in diseases that can harm the local pets; feral dogs will form hunting packs that may attack people or small pets; their waste will overwhelm the neighborhood (he may be feeding but I'm sure he's not scooping); unrestricted breeding is very hard on the animals and they die young; with so many in the neighborhood they will undoubtedly be hit by cars and seriously injured or killed; ... it's just very unhealthy for the animals and the people.
Sunny
K responded: I like the letter, Sunny. I have no problems emailing it to him once we are all in agreement.
However, P said:Sorry but technically we are not ALL in agreement. I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Sunny. You know how I feel about animals I think we both feel just about the same way, however as as person who feeds the strays as long as teaching my son to do the same I think this person is trying to do something nice
I don't have time to write a long note about it tonight but I just wanted to send out a quick little note
Oh, great. So I wrote a long letter trying to explain it to her. I bolded certain parts for emphasis; the italics were in the original. I also made one change to simplify (the sentence that begins "Even PETA...").Well, that's why I didn't want to just send it, P___. I feel that when any of us writes to a member that mod is speaking for all of us, and that's why we make decisions as a team.
If you really object then I'll take that part out, but I do feel strongly about it. We are both coming from the same place (caring about the animals) but it's perfectly possible for that to take us in different directions on some issues. I *don't* object to feeding individual strays -- I've done it myself. In fact, a cat I used to have named Rainbow (a beautiful calico) was adopted because she was hanging around my house when I lived out in Clarksville, and I put food out for her for every day for a couple of weeks before she even let me get near her. Once I was able to, I took her to the vet and got her checked over, vaccinated and spayed.
What is inappropriate is feeding large numbers of strays like he is doing. Please read this material that I have taken from three pages about this issue. They are all short excerpts -- if you want to read the full information, the links are given.
Why feeding strays is bad for the cats: This is from PETA:
http://www.downbound.com/Feral_Cats_s/253.htm Homeless cats do not die of old age. Highly contagious diseases are common, as are infected puncture wounds, broken bones, urinary tract infections, brain damage, internal injuries, attacks by other animals or cruel humans, automobile accidents, and terrible living conditions like freezing or stifling temperatures, scrounging for food, and being considered a “nuisance,” through no fault of their own. Moreover, free-roaming cats also terrorize and kill countless birds and other wildlife who are not equipped to deal with such predators.
Having witnessed firsthand the gruesome things that can happen to feral cats and to the animals they prey on, even PETA does not oppose euthanasia as a humane alternative to dealing with cat overpopulation.
Each situation is different, but it is never acceptable-no matter how noble the intentions-to feed cats without providing them with medical care, vaccinations, and spaying or neutering. Doing so would serve only to endanger the cats and perpetuate the overpopulation crisis and its tragic consequences: the needless deaths of millions of animals every year. ...
The responsibilities of a feral cat colony caretaker include ensuring that all cats in the colony are humanely captured, sterilized, vaccinated against rabies, provided with a sanitary feeding station with fresh water and food, given access to shelter, treated for illnesses and injuries, and accepted by neighbors and landlords. A properly managed feral cat colony is healthy and stable, i.e., no new kittens are born.
Why feeding strays is harmful for people and other animals: This is from a licensed animal rehabilitator:
http://www.wildspirit.org/managed.htm Unchecked, cat populations can skyrocket. A female cat can have up to three litters per year, with four to six kittens per litter. ... While domestic cats are solitary animals, aggregations or "colonies" often form around an artificial feeding source, such as garbage dumps or places where people deliberately leave food for them. ...
Cat colonies often serve as dumping grounds for unwanted cats and the food often attracts more cats. ... Cat colonies, even managed ones, are a human health risk. Diseases that can be transmitted to humans, such as ringworm, cat scratch fever, and toxoplasmosis, cannot be controlled in managed cat colonies. Rabies is a very real threat, and raccoons and skunks are two of the most common carriers of the disease in wildlife. Raccoons and skunks are attracted to feeding stations, as well as foxes, opossums, skunks, and rats. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, cats are the domestic animal most commonly reported rabid in the U.S. The National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians recently passed a resolution opposing [trap, spay and release programs] because of these health risks. ...
There is extensive documentation that free-roaming cats are prolific and efficient predators of birds and other wildlife, even if well-fed. ...
Managed cat colonies are not a humane solution for the cats who still face a multitude of hazards and diseases.
· Cats who have been captured once are extremely hard to catch subsequently for revaccination.
· Not all feeders have the resources for testing and vaccination, and many debilitating and life-threatening illnesses cannot be treated on a one time basis, such as roundworm, ringworm, fleas, ticks, ear mites, abscesses, respiratory infections, urinary tract infections, and eye infections.
· Cats are also subject to other hazards, such as cars, attacks by other cats, wildlife or humans, poisoning, and leg-hold traps. ...
Educate the public that feeding stray cats is not the solution for cats, wildlife, or people.
Why feeding strays doesn't help the cats: This is a post on a message board:
http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/siamese_cats/115360
The most effective way of persuading stray feeders of the damage they are doing is to explain that the size of the average litter is 7 kits. So, for each cat they feed, they should plan on feeding 7 times that many in 6 months. And 49 times that 6 months later, then 343 times that in another 6 months, and so on.
It's important to realize that the stray cat population is limited primarily by the food source. So, no matter how much you feed, cats are such successful breeders that the population will always swell to borderline starvation.
So, people who feed without neutering FIRST are simply multiplying the misery. Do the math!
If you cannot afford to neuter, then you DEFINITELY cannot afford to feed a stray!
The best way to combat this is with a low-cost spay neuter program and a team of volunteers who can trap an entire colony for alteration.
If we all speak up, perhaps we will eventually be heard. Otherwise, the folks who feed stray cats are no better than those who feed rats or pigeons or squirrels or other creatures who are problems for people when their numbers rise beyond what nature intended.
Many of those strays are, unfortunately, throw-away pets or the offspring of the same. Please support legislation to make spay/neuter mandatory for companion animals in your area!
I know it's long, but it's a very important issue. I hope this helps you understand why feeding large numbers of strays is not helpful, even for the cats themselves.
Frankly, I did not know that even PETA said that capturing strays is better than spay-and-release programs, even if it means putting them down! PETA is so strongly against any killing ... I was really surprised to hear that. But even PETA has realized that having colonies of feral cats -- even spayed and neutered ones -- is actually *worse* for the cats than euthanizing them.
Please let me know what you think after you've read the material above. If it doesn't change your mind, that's your privilege, and we can agree to disagree on this issue. But I hope you at least give some thought to what these organizations say, especially PETA, who *always* has the welfare of the animals at heart.
Sunny
=sigh= I'm feeling very frustrated. This is so obvious, and I can't believe that P___ doesn't see it. I hope I can convince her.
I wish I weren't so passionate about things. I wish I didn't have such a need to be a crusader. I wish I hadn't stayed up until well past 1:00 am writing this post and getting all the formatting -- blockquotes and bolds and italics and fonts and everything else -- opened and closed in the right place. But it was on my mind and I had to get it out of my system.
If you were interested enough to read all this (don't feel bad if you weren't and just skipped over the cut, it's extremely long) I'd be interested to know what you think.
We have a member in one of my freecycle groups who is feeding stray cats. We can keep him from posting because he's basically asking for a donation to an ongoing effort, and we don't allow that, but I also wanted to tell him it's not good to feed large numbers of strays. It's one thing to feed an individual stray, but it's bad for both the cats and the neighborhood to feed feral cat colonies and dog packs.
Unfortunately, one of the mods, P___, doesn't understand that either.
This is what he posted on July 15:WANTED:CAT FOOD
WE NEED HELP FEEDING ALL THE STRAYS IN THE AREA.We`ve spent
100s of $$ and can use all kinds of cat food.They are not
fussy THANKS,JOHN
K___ realized it was inappropriate, but P___ said she didn't see anything wrong with it. This is what I said:I agree with K___. This is no different from the guy who wanted any and all clothes for the homeless people he was helping. This guy wants any and all cat food for the homeless cats he is helping. Same thing, not appropriate for the same reason. Any time there's an endless need, it becomes a charity situation, not a recycling one.
If he's feeding so many cats that he's spending hundreds of dollars, then this is a mission he's chosen to take on, and that makes it charity. It's not like feeding "a stray" that's hanging around.
Another aspect is that, personally, I feel that what this person is doing is morally wrong and I am not comfortable using freecycle to support it. Stray cats should not be fed on an ongoing basis. It just leads to more and more cats. He isn't helping them, he is contributing to the problem! His neighbors must be furious. Especially if no one has taken them in for neutering, it is extremely wrong to feed them.
So K___, your instincts were correct. This needs to be denied. Delete the pending message.
I'll write to him if you want.
Sunny
Unfortunately R___ approved it before he saw any of the correspondence, and it slipped through the cracks and no one ever wrote to the guy.
Today he posted this:Wanted:CAT AND DOG FOOD
I am trying to keep up with the strays in the area! Costing me
a fortune
Like most freecycle groups, we limit reposts of Wanteds for "the same or similar item" to once a month. So K wrote to the rest of us:This can't be approved because he asked for it on July 14th but should we bring up to him about not asking for this because of what Sunny said before about encouraging more cats to come.
My reply:OMG -- he's feeding cats AND DOGS??? Last time he just asked for cat food!
You're right, K___ -- it's not just that it's too soon. There are two important issues here. One is that he's treating this like a charity, repeatedly looking for cat food (and dog food!) for what he sees as a social mission (like the guy that wanted clothes for hundreds of homeless people). The other issue is the morality of what he's doing -- I don't feel it's right to feed strays. (The reasons are explained in my letter from last month so I won't repeat them.)
Here are some of the messages from our conversation about this guy last month. Please continue to read down below to where I have a question. ...
[messages from July 14 correspondence including the one above]
How does this sound for a message to him?John,
We cannot approve this post for two important reasons.
One is [add boilerplate about being too soon, with Wanted rule quoted]
The other is that your first message asking for cat food should not have been approved in the first place. One of the moderators approved it before the moderator team had a chance to discuss it, but we will not approve any of these requests from now on.
Freecycle is a recycling group, not a charity organization. We cannot support a continuing mission of feeding stray cats and dogs. If someone else offers pet food, you can reply to them and ask for it -- but you may not post Wanteds asking for any pet food on an ongoing basis.
Have these stray cats and dogs been neutered and released? We will not support feeding large numbers of stray animals that can breed. The more you feed them the more cats and dogs there will be. They will come from other areas to the food source and they will breed, and there will be huge packs of cats and dogs.
That is bad for everyone concerned. Unrestricted breeding of feral animals is *harmful* to the animals. It is also bad for the everyone in the neighborhood -- packs of feral animals can be very dangerous to both people and to pet cats and dogs And it is expensive for you.
Stray animals -- especially if they are able to breed -- should *never* be fed, and we will not support it by allowing you to post in this group.
Please do not attempt to post any more messages asking for cat food.
Thanks for your understanding and cooperation,
I can send it or you can, K__, but I want to make sure everyone is okay with the part starting with the fifth paragraph (about not supporting the feeding of strays). If not we can delete that part -- it's still charity and he still can't do it -- but I would like to give him some food for thought on that issue. I also hope he'll reply to my question about whether they are neutered, because if they're not, and we can find out where he is, I will report him to animal control. He said in his first post he's feeding "all the strays in the area" and has spent "100s of $$", so this is a major operation for him. If this is not a catch-spay-and-release program, and these cats and dogs are breeding, it *must* be reported.
If we can find his location -- even generally -- I'd like to report it anyway, even if he doesn't answer. Can you imagine what he is creating with this program of his? As I said in the letter, it's harmful to the animals and it's harmful to the neighborhood. Feral cats and dogs will bring in diseases that can harm the local pets; feral dogs will form hunting packs that may attack people or small pets; their waste will overwhelm the neighborhood (he may be feeding but I'm sure he's not scooping); unrestricted breeding is very hard on the animals and they die young; with so many in the neighborhood they will undoubtedly be hit by cars and seriously injured or killed; ... it's just very unhealthy for the animals and the people.
Sunny
K responded: I like the letter, Sunny. I have no problems emailing it to him once we are all in agreement.
However, P said:Sorry but technically we are not ALL in agreement. I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Sunny. You know how I feel about animals I think we both feel just about the same way, however as as person who feeds the strays as long as teaching my son to do the same I think this person is trying to do something nice
I don't have time to write a long note about it tonight but I just wanted to send out a quick little note
Oh, great. So I wrote a long letter trying to explain it to her. I bolded certain parts for emphasis; the italics were in the original. I also made one change to simplify (the sentence that begins "Even PETA...").Well, that's why I didn't want to just send it, P___. I feel that when any of us writes to a member that mod is speaking for all of us, and that's why we make decisions as a team.
If you really object then I'll take that part out, but I do feel strongly about it. We are both coming from the same place (caring about the animals) but it's perfectly possible for that to take us in different directions on some issues. I *don't* object to feeding individual strays -- I've done it myself. In fact, a cat I used to have named Rainbow (a beautiful calico) was adopted because she was hanging around my house when I lived out in Clarksville, and I put food out for her for every day for a couple of weeks before she even let me get near her. Once I was able to, I took her to the vet and got her checked over, vaccinated and spayed.
What is inappropriate is feeding large numbers of strays like he is doing. Please read this material that I have taken from three pages about this issue. They are all short excerpts -- if you want to read the full information, the links are given.
Why feeding strays is bad for the cats: This is from PETA:
http://www.downbound.com/Feral_Cats_s/253.htm Homeless cats do not die of old age. Highly contagious diseases are common, as are infected puncture wounds, broken bones, urinary tract infections, brain damage, internal injuries, attacks by other animals or cruel humans, automobile accidents, and terrible living conditions like freezing or stifling temperatures, scrounging for food, and being considered a “nuisance,” through no fault of their own. Moreover, free-roaming cats also terrorize and kill countless birds and other wildlife who are not equipped to deal with such predators.
Having witnessed firsthand the gruesome things that can happen to feral cats and to the animals they prey on, even PETA does not oppose euthanasia as a humane alternative to dealing with cat overpopulation.
Each situation is different, but it is never acceptable-no matter how noble the intentions-to feed cats without providing them with medical care, vaccinations, and spaying or neutering. Doing so would serve only to endanger the cats and perpetuate the overpopulation crisis and its tragic consequences: the needless deaths of millions of animals every year. ...
The responsibilities of a feral cat colony caretaker include ensuring that all cats in the colony are humanely captured, sterilized, vaccinated against rabies, provided with a sanitary feeding station with fresh water and food, given access to shelter, treated for illnesses and injuries, and accepted by neighbors and landlords. A properly managed feral cat colony is healthy and stable, i.e., no new kittens are born.
Why feeding strays is harmful for people and other animals: This is from a licensed animal rehabilitator:
http://www.wildspirit.org/managed.htm Unchecked, cat populations can skyrocket. A female cat can have up to three litters per year, with four to six kittens per litter. ... While domestic cats are solitary animals, aggregations or "colonies" often form around an artificial feeding source, such as garbage dumps or places where people deliberately leave food for them. ...
Cat colonies often serve as dumping grounds for unwanted cats and the food often attracts more cats. ... Cat colonies, even managed ones, are a human health risk. Diseases that can be transmitted to humans, such as ringworm, cat scratch fever, and toxoplasmosis, cannot be controlled in managed cat colonies. Rabies is a very real threat, and raccoons and skunks are two of the most common carriers of the disease in wildlife. Raccoons and skunks are attracted to feeding stations, as well as foxes, opossums, skunks, and rats. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, cats are the domestic animal most commonly reported rabid in the U.S. The National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians recently passed a resolution opposing [trap, spay and release programs] because of these health risks. ...
There is extensive documentation that free-roaming cats are prolific and efficient predators of birds and other wildlife, even if well-fed. ...
Managed cat colonies are not a humane solution for the cats who still face a multitude of hazards and diseases.
· Cats who have been captured once are extremely hard to catch subsequently for revaccination.
· Not all feeders have the resources for testing and vaccination, and many debilitating and life-threatening illnesses cannot be treated on a one time basis, such as roundworm, ringworm, fleas, ticks, ear mites, abscesses, respiratory infections, urinary tract infections, and eye infections.
· Cats are also subject to other hazards, such as cars, attacks by other cats, wildlife or humans, poisoning, and leg-hold traps. ...
Educate the public that feeding stray cats is not the solution for cats, wildlife, or people.
Why feeding strays doesn't help the cats: This is a post on a message board:
http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/siamese_cats/115360
The most effective way of persuading stray feeders of the damage they are doing is to explain that the size of the average litter is 7 kits. So, for each cat they feed, they should plan on feeding 7 times that many in 6 months. And 49 times that 6 months later, then 343 times that in another 6 months, and so on.
It's important to realize that the stray cat population is limited primarily by the food source. So, no matter how much you feed, cats are such successful breeders that the population will always swell to borderline starvation.
So, people who feed without neutering FIRST are simply multiplying the misery. Do the math!
If you cannot afford to neuter, then you DEFINITELY cannot afford to feed a stray!
The best way to combat this is with a low-cost spay neuter program and a team of volunteers who can trap an entire colony for alteration.
If we all speak up, perhaps we will eventually be heard. Otherwise, the folks who feed stray cats are no better than those who feed rats or pigeons or squirrels or other creatures who are problems for people when their numbers rise beyond what nature intended.
Many of those strays are, unfortunately, throw-away pets or the offspring of the same. Please support legislation to make spay/neuter mandatory for companion animals in your area!
I know it's long, but it's a very important issue. I hope this helps you understand why feeding large numbers of strays is not helpful, even for the cats themselves.
Frankly, I did not know that even PETA said that capturing strays is better than spay-and-release programs, even if it means putting them down! PETA is so strongly against any killing ... I was really surprised to hear that. But even PETA has realized that having colonies of feral cats -- even spayed and neutered ones -- is actually *worse* for the cats than euthanizing them.
Please let me know what you think after you've read the material above. If it doesn't change your mind, that's your privilege, and we can agree to disagree on this issue. But I hope you at least give some thought to what these organizations say, especially PETA, who *always* has the welfare of the animals at heart.
Sunny
=sigh= I'm feeling very frustrated. This is so obvious, and I can't believe that P___ doesn't see it. I hope I can convince her.
I wish I weren't so passionate about things. I wish I didn't have such a need to be a crusader. I wish I hadn't stayed up until well past 1:00 am writing this post and getting all the formatting -- blockquotes and bolds and italics and fonts and everything else -- opened and closed in the right place. But it was on my mind and I had to get it out of my system.
If you were interested enough to read all this (don't feel bad if you weren't and just skipped over the cut, it's extremely long) I'd be interested to know what you think.