Yeah, I mean, Buffy, Willow and Arya have some specific sorts of privilege, whether it's slayer powers, some economic security & genius intellect, or having the one father in Westeros with both the means and the inclination to arrange and encourage fighting lessons for a young woman. However these are pretty heavily blunted by the downsides that come with the life they are thrust into. There is some ambivalence in Diane and Sally about their life, but they are more clear on the ways in which they have specific advantages that give them a leg up on *avoiding*/traversing major problems which others don't have, as opposed to "things that slightly mitigate the horror of being a child soldier with loved ones dropping left and right violently." Whereas, Cersei recognizes that there is injustice in the way men vs. women are treated but largely believes that she is indeed superior to all other women.
It's interesting. I think I would see Diane as somewhat crass if I thought Alicia really did have a Saint Alicia objection to the partnership offer -- which is to say, a genuine feeling that since she has not earned the partnership, she should not take it under false pretenses. However the idea does seem basically to be that she believes she has earned the partnership and it is difficult for her ego to find out that the partnership was not all on the up and up. (I'm reminded of Skip's comment about Cordelia's ascension. It takes more than three years to make partner In The Universe legitimately, too.)
I think Alicia had a mix of an ego/St. Alicia objection to the partnership. Alicia was under the impression that she deserved it and it hurt her ego to find out that it was a partly a scheme to raise money. However, she never really acted like she wanted to turn it down. Instead, Alicia was somewhat fishing for an affirmation that her legal acumen earned her the partnership along with an opportunity to make a "righteous" stand against that improper way of doing business so Alicia could feel like she told truth to power before she inevitably accepted the partnership. Diane resented both, knowing that Alicia remained interested in accepting the partnership. Diane was annoyed that Alicia wanted an extra pat on the back as if being made partner in a big firm (albeit a little down on its luck) wasn't enough and that Alicia was acting morally above the place where she works and where she wanted to accept the partnership. And I think Diane knows that Alicia would probably do the same slightly unorthodox money-raising if she was a partner, walking a mile in Diane's Manolo Blahniks, because Diane's seen Alicia pull clever fast ones to advantage her firm and herself constantly and heck, that's partly why Alicia was made partner.
Of course, Diane wasn't 100 percent right. She and Will did hide the ball on all of the reasons why they were making Alicia partner. Although IIRC, Alicia knew the firm was having financial problems and could make an educated choice on whether she had enough faith in L&G to put up a capital contribution. And to me, that's the germane point. (Plus even though the firm was a little strapped, my impression is that the equity partners were will taking home nice pay, better than associate pay.) As long as no one is conning anyone, it's an OK way to raise money as long as Alicia's partnership agreement is still honored after the firm raised enough money to get past the hurdle. (Which it absolutely was.) As the show explores, it that scheme was unfair to anyone, it was unfair to a young associate who was on that border to make partner because of merit but hasn't accumulated wealth. And they weren't a part of Alicia's decision-making. Although even then, Alicia really does have her advantages and challenges from how she's a middle-aged woman who used the first part of her life to marry well. I think it overall helps and pushes her over the top (case in point, the Carey v. Alicia competition in S1) but Alicia, in her way, did "earn" the cachet to be a source for a partnership contribution and a partner-of-interest because of her husband and she suffers from those choices every day on a personal level.
I will add though Betty's imminent death strips some of Sally's privilege, especially in context for how her life progressed from 6 to 16 which is its own skyscraper descent although shaded with her own greater power to make her voice heard and be aware of the situation as she precociously matured. She still has a lot of advantages. However even more than the other Draper kids, she's really taunted with the better childhood she could have had if Betty and Don made healthier choices.
However, of course, that has a role in Arya's and Buffy's story too- a dramatic come-down as a child. But yeah, Arya and Buffy were plunged into a war and Sally wasn't and that's an overpowering difference. You could argue that Willow also had a come-down as a child as she was plunged into the war and had to deal with death and tragedy and injuries- but IMO, Willow only somewhat sees it like that and puts it out of her mind (but it's there- see her reaction to Vamp Xander's manipulation) until arguably Buffy's death and certainly Tara's death. Arya feels the pain of the come-down, partly because she imagined a fun life as a rough knight as a high-born girl and reality ended up being a horror-show version of that. For Buffy, it's the opposite where Buffy had Sansa-expectations who had to live as an Arya. Their arc is direct refutation of pre-series expectations. Willow didn't have exciting expectations pre-series- so even horror feels like at least a *life* since it comes with the camaraderie and productivity of soldiering.
"but Alicia, in her way, did "earn" the cachet to be a source for a partnership contribution and a partner-of-interest because of her husband and she suffers from those choices every day on a personal level."
Absolutely. In s6, Cary earns a *lot* of cachet from the Bishop case, which I think puts him in a worse overall worst-case-scenario position than Alicia is really in. But before then -- like, Alicia's hands are tied by her difficult, bad marriage, which is also necessary for her to continue ahead at the firm. I wish that they had been able to examine a little more of the Will-Peter dichotomy actually in how Alicia's relationships with those men help and hinder her -- I mean, obviously they spent a lot of time on it, but what I mean is there are *SPECIFIC* issues that they could have dwelt on more, like, for example, if Will would have to ask Alicia for favours from Peter more, or the extent to which Alicia needs to be on good terms with both men in order to keep her place at LG secure. I mean, it sort of went there. I'm not sure exactly what I want that I didn't get.
(My name is William and yet I *still* almost wrote "Willow" when I typed out "Will," which is a little disturbing.)
Agree on Willow vs. Buffy and Arya. The real issue is that Willow did not particularly feel she had a life before Buffy's arrival, as you say. Willow *is* ambivalent, even from "The Pack," about Buffy's arrival and what it means, but the biggest thing that she was conscious of losing is Xander. (Well, "and Jesse" if we take that on board. Jesse occupies not much space in my headcanon, to be honest.) She lost a certain amount of security, but it's hard for her to perceive that as a loss when her relative security pre-series didn't bring her any happiness. But with Xander, there is the "three's not company anymore" realization that Buffy's presence has disrupted them. I think that Tara's loss, and to some extent Buffy's, was what really clued her into what she lost because of *this life*, though it's still hard for her to be nostalgic about the pre-WttH time until Xander tells her that there was *something* in kindergarten-Willow worth preserving, after which I think she's much more clearly aware of the costs of this life (with "Anywhere But Here" as one of the clearest statements in the Buffyverse about the personal cost of staying in the fight).
It occurs to me that "I have no grace" is also kind of in the "a girl lacks honour" category.
Oh hey, I just found this out, did you know that Joss stated in the Serenity Visual Companion that the book he read immediately after The Killer Angels, which *also* inspired Firefly, was a book about Jewish Resistance Fighters in WW2? I know we can interpret this as PROBLEMATIC but I think it's more that there are genuinely heroic aspects of the Serenity crew's rebellion (esp. when it comes to sheltering the Tams) in addition to the more ambiguous civil war stuff.
wish that they had been able to examine a little more of the Will-Peter dichotomy actually in how Alicia's relationships with those men help and hinder her -- I mean, obviously they spent a lot of time on it, but what I mean is there are *SPECIFIC* issues that they could have dwelt on more, like, for example, if Will would have to ask Alicia for favours from Peter more, or the extent to which Alicia needs to be on good terms with both men in order to keep her place at LG secure. I mean, it sort of went there. I'm not sure exactly what I want that I didn't get.
No, I know what you mean. The Peter/Alicia/Will dynamic and how it relates with romance and her career is really explored- but yeah, there's some honest dimension that's missing. For me, it's that when Alicia is actively fighting with one guy, she's cozy and getting favors from the other. While Will's alive, we never quite see exactly what Alicia is made of as Our Heroine or more pointedly, we never see the converse of how she relies on at least one guy in her corner at all times by seeing her unable to call on/use both for help. If Will is painted as pointedly mean, suddenly Peter gets warmed and fuzzied up to be Alicia's guy.
Even though Alicia's the main character, she still doesn't get a story as interesting as supporting!Joan in S5 when Joan's had it with being Roger's Rich Man's Mistress and she's finally thrown Greg out.
Agree on Willow vs. Buffy and Arya. The real issue is that Willow did not particularly feel she had a life before Buffy's arrival, as you say. Willow *is* ambivalent, even from "The Pack," about Buffy's arrival and what it means, but the biggest thing that she was conscious of losing is Xander. (Well, "and Jesse" if we take that on board. Jesse occupies not much space in my headcanon, to be honest.)
I agree with this too, especially how Willow mainly feels losing Xander and Jesse isn't a big part of my pre-series head-canon. TBH, my main head canon for Jesse is that there were times that Xander was insensitive and gravitated to Jesse even though Willow was his true best friend and that was a part of Willow's pre-series insecurity and part of why Xander, despite his home insecurity, was more surface at-ease socially. Other than that, I have little use for pre-series Jesse to screw with my Xander/Willow =BFF opinions or as some stick to beat Xander/Willow/Joss Whedon for their The Harvest reactions by viewing him as super meaningful, although I get the impulse.
You know, I could see S1 Arya having fun if Ned figured out that he was a target and he gathered up Arya and Sansa to run away and hide out in the woods to make a perilous, adventure filled journey back up to Winterfell. Sansa'd hate it and Ned would be too clued into the danger and the loss of his position enjoy himself, but Arya could really like adventure if she just had her family alive and she convinced herself that the rest of her family was safe at home base of Winterfell. It's just how the murder of her father inaugurated her life as a boy-soldier that destroyed the whole life from the get-go.
Willow is much the same way. I don't want to underrate what losing Jenny meant to Willow, but Jenny died in school doing a computer project. Her motive was evil-fighty but she didn't die in action. It was just a much a cautionary tale to protect civilians doing peaceful activities in Sunnydale human turf as any Student Death #3432. Willow starts having regrets about The Life when Buffy died and then is filled with regret over their war when Tara dies because Tara stays dead. Willow really can't be all, "And that all worked out OK!" ala Angel about deaths that stick.
It occurs to me that "I have no grace" is also kind of in the "a girl lacks honour" category.
Oh hey, I just found this out, did you know that Joss stated in the Serenity Visual Companion that the book he read immediately after The Killer Angels, which *also* inspired Firefly, was a book about Jewish Resistance Fighters in WW2? I know we can interpret this as PROBLEMATIC but I think it's more that there are genuinely heroic aspects of the Serenity crew's rebellion (esp. when it comes to sheltering the Tams) in addition to the more ambiguous civil war stuff.
I didn't know that. Actually, I don't even want to be the girl who cries out Problematic but I'd be cooler if Serenity was inspired just by WWII resistance fighters than particularly Jewish resistance fighters. I agree that there were heroic aspects to the Serenity crew, but no one but River was being hunted for their intrinsic qualities since birth and yeah, the conflict in Firefly didn't seem nearly as morally clear-cut as WWII.
Although, I don't find the Jewish resistance fighters as obnoxious as comparing the outer planets + Serenity crew to the American Confederacy without any evidence of racial slavery en masse. And the Serenity crew diametrically opposed to any slavery that they encountered from a particular planet- i.e. Jaynestown. IMO, the Serenity crew aren't quite Jewish resistance fighters but they're closer to the former than the American Confederacy!
No, I know what you mean. The Peter/Alicia/Will dynamic and how it relates with romance and her career is really explored- but yeah, there's some honest dimension that's missing. For me, it's that when Alicia is actively fighting with one guy, she's cozy and getting favors from the other. While Will's alive, we never quite see exactly what Alicia is made of as Our Heroine or more pointedly, we never see the converse of how she relies on at least one guy in her corner at all times by seeing her unable to call on/use both for help. If Will is painted as pointedly mean, suddenly Peter gets warmed and fuzzied up to be Alicia's guy.
Even though Alicia's the main character, she still doesn't get a story as interesting as supporting!Joan in S5 when Joan's had it with being Roger's Rich Man's Mistress and she's finally thrown Greg out.
Ha, I think that's exactly it. And while Alicia can reject Peter (to different degrees) after Will's death, she still "gets to" idealize her/Will and see him as the one that got away, rather than someone she actively has to choose to keep away from permanently while also avoiding Peter. I don't actually think that her whole story should be *only* rejecting both, but given how much focus those ships have on the show and on how Alicia defines herself (and how her career goes...) it is an omission that there is no period where that is true. I think that they missed the opportunity to have Alicia...totally on board with both guys. I think there were some periods where this was true-ish (where she was on okay terms with both).
In actuality there are three powerful men in Alicia's life consistently in the show (up until Will's death) (four if you count Eli who I don't because he's too closely associated with Peter, five if you count Zach because I don't think his hacking is at power levels yet, six if -- well anyway), where Cary is the third. And Cary is the one case where there's no romantic tension, and is probably the healthiest relationship. In a way Cary, Will and Peter all have different strengths and weaknesses (advantages/disadvantages) as lawyers but especially as men. I think the answer might be that if she were most distant from Will or Peter, she'd get cozier with Cary, not romantically but, well, what actually happened (merger).
It's interesting. I think I would see Diane as somewhat crass if I thought Alicia really did have a Saint Alicia objection to the partnership offer -- which is to say, a genuine feeling that since she has not earned the partnership, she should not take it under false pretenses. However the idea does seem basically to be that she believes she has earned the partnership and it is difficult for her ego to find out that the partnership was not all on the up and up. (I'm reminded of Skip's comment about Cordelia's ascension. It takes more than three years to make partner In The Universe legitimately, too.)
Reply
Of course, Diane wasn't 100 percent right. She and Will did hide the ball on all of the reasons why they were making Alicia partner. Although IIRC, Alicia knew the firm was having financial problems and could make an educated choice on whether she had enough faith in L&G to put up a capital contribution. And to me, that's the germane point. (Plus even though the firm was a little strapped, my impression is that the equity partners were will taking home nice pay, better than associate pay.) As long as no one is conning anyone, it's an OK way to raise money as long as Alicia's partnership agreement is still honored after the firm raised enough money to get past the hurdle. (Which it absolutely was.) As the show explores, it that scheme was unfair to anyone, it was unfair to a young associate who was on that border to make partner because of merit but hasn't accumulated wealth. And they weren't a part of Alicia's decision-making. Although even then, Alicia really does have her advantages and challenges from how she's a middle-aged woman who used the first part of her life to marry well. I think it overall helps and pushes her over the top (case in point, the Carey v. Alicia competition in S1) but Alicia, in her way, did "earn" the cachet to be a source for a partnership contribution and a partner-of-interest because of her husband and she suffers from those choices every day on a personal level.
I will add though Betty's imminent death strips some of Sally's privilege, especially in context for how her life progressed from 6 to 16 which is its own skyscraper descent although shaded with her own greater power to make her voice heard and be aware of the situation as she precociously matured. She still has a lot of advantages. However even more than the other Draper kids, she's really taunted with the better childhood she could have had if Betty and Don made healthier choices.
However, of course, that has a role in Arya's and Buffy's story too- a dramatic come-down as a child. But yeah, Arya and Buffy were plunged into a war and Sally wasn't and that's an overpowering difference. You could argue that Willow also had a come-down as a child as she was plunged into the war and had to deal with death and tragedy and injuries- but IMO, Willow only somewhat sees it like that and puts it out of her mind (but it's there- see her reaction to Vamp Xander's manipulation) until arguably Buffy's death and certainly Tara's death. Arya feels the pain of the come-down, partly because she imagined a fun life as a rough knight as a high-born girl and reality ended up being a horror-show version of that. For Buffy, it's the opposite where Buffy had Sansa-expectations who had to live as an Arya. Their arc is direct refutation of pre-series expectations. Willow didn't have exciting expectations pre-series- so even horror feels like at least a *life* since it comes with the camaraderie and productivity of soldiering.
Reply
"but Alicia, in her way, did "earn" the cachet to be a source for a partnership contribution and a partner-of-interest because of her husband and she suffers from those choices every day on a personal level."
Absolutely. In s6, Cary earns a *lot* of cachet from the Bishop case, which I think puts him in a worse overall worst-case-scenario position than Alicia is really in. But before then -- like, Alicia's hands are tied by her difficult, bad marriage, which is also necessary for her to continue ahead at the firm. I wish that they had been able to examine a little more of the Will-Peter dichotomy actually in how Alicia's relationships with those men help and hinder her -- I mean, obviously they spent a lot of time on it, but what I mean is there are *SPECIFIC* issues that they could have dwelt on more, like, for example, if Will would have to ask Alicia for favours from Peter more, or the extent to which Alicia needs to be on good terms with both men in order to keep her place at LG secure. I mean, it sort of went there. I'm not sure exactly what I want that I didn't get.
(My name is William and yet I *still* almost wrote "Willow" when I typed out "Will," which is a little disturbing.)
Agree on Willow vs. Buffy and Arya. The real issue is that Willow did not particularly feel she had a life before Buffy's arrival, as you say. Willow *is* ambivalent, even from "The Pack," about Buffy's arrival and what it means, but the biggest thing that she was conscious of losing is Xander. (Well, "and Jesse" if we take that on board. Jesse occupies not much space in my headcanon, to be honest.) She lost a certain amount of security, but it's hard for her to perceive that as a loss when her relative security pre-series didn't bring her any happiness. But with Xander, there is the "three's not company anymore" realization that Buffy's presence has disrupted them. I think that Tara's loss, and to some extent Buffy's, was what really clued her into what she lost because of *this life*, though it's still hard for her to be nostalgic about the pre-WttH time until Xander tells her that there was *something* in kindergarten-Willow worth preserving, after which I think she's much more clearly aware of the costs of this life (with "Anywhere But Here" as one of the clearest statements in the Buffyverse about the personal cost of staying in the fight).
It occurs to me that "I have no grace" is also kind of in the "a girl lacks honour" category.
Oh hey, I just found this out, did you know that Joss stated in the Serenity Visual Companion that the book he read immediately after The Killer Angels, which *also* inspired Firefly, was a book about Jewish Resistance Fighters in WW2? I know we can interpret this as PROBLEMATIC but I think it's more that there are genuinely heroic aspects of the Serenity crew's rebellion (esp. when it comes to sheltering the Tams) in addition to the more ambiguous civil war stuff.
Reply
No, I know what you mean. The Peter/Alicia/Will dynamic and how it relates with romance and her career is really explored- but yeah, there's some honest dimension that's missing. For me, it's that when Alicia is actively fighting with one guy, she's cozy and getting favors from the other. While Will's alive, we never quite see exactly what Alicia is made of as Our Heroine or more pointedly, we never see the converse of how she relies on at least one guy in her corner at all times by seeing her unable to call on/use both for help. If Will is painted as pointedly mean, suddenly Peter gets warmed and fuzzied up to be Alicia's guy.
Even though Alicia's the main character, she still doesn't get a story as interesting as supporting!Joan in S5 when Joan's had it with being Roger's Rich Man's Mistress and she's finally thrown Greg out.
Agree on Willow vs. Buffy and Arya. The real issue is that Willow did not particularly feel she had a life before Buffy's arrival, as you say. Willow *is* ambivalent, even from "The Pack," about Buffy's arrival and what it means, but the biggest thing that she was conscious of losing is Xander. (Well, "and Jesse" if we take that on board. Jesse occupies not much space in my headcanon, to be honest.)
I agree with this too, especially how Willow mainly feels losing Xander and Jesse isn't a big part of my pre-series head-canon. TBH, my main head canon for Jesse is that there were times that Xander was insensitive and gravitated to Jesse even though Willow was his true best friend and that was a part of Willow's pre-series insecurity and part of why Xander, despite his home insecurity, was more surface at-ease socially. Other than that, I have little use for pre-series Jesse to screw with my Xander/Willow =BFF opinions or as some stick to beat Xander/Willow/Joss Whedon for their The Harvest reactions by viewing him as super meaningful, although I get the impulse.
You know, I could see S1 Arya having fun if Ned figured out that he was a target and he gathered up Arya and Sansa to run away and hide out in the woods to make a perilous, adventure filled journey back up to Winterfell. Sansa'd hate it and Ned would be too clued into the danger and the loss of his position enjoy himself, but Arya could really like adventure if she just had her family alive and she convinced herself that the rest of her family was safe at home base of Winterfell. It's just how the murder of her father inaugurated her life as a boy-soldier that destroyed the whole life from the get-go.
Willow is much the same way. I don't want to underrate what losing Jenny meant to Willow, but Jenny died in school doing a computer project. Her motive was evil-fighty but she didn't die in action. It was just a much a cautionary tale to protect civilians doing peaceful activities in Sunnydale human turf as any Student Death #3432. Willow starts having regrets about The Life when Buffy died and then is filled with regret over their war when Tara dies because Tara stays dead. Willow really can't be all, "And that all worked out OK!" ala Angel about deaths that stick.
It occurs to me that "I have no grace" is also kind of in the "a girl lacks honour" category.
LOL.
Reply
Oh hey, I just found this out, did you know that Joss stated in the Serenity Visual Companion that the book he read immediately after The Killer Angels, which *also* inspired Firefly, was a book about Jewish Resistance Fighters in WW2? I know we can interpret this as PROBLEMATIC but I think it's more that there are genuinely heroic aspects of the Serenity crew's rebellion (esp. when it comes to sheltering the Tams) in addition to the more ambiguous civil war stuff.
I didn't know that. Actually, I don't even want to be the girl who cries out Problematic but I'd be cooler if Serenity was inspired just by WWII resistance fighters than particularly Jewish resistance fighters. I agree that there were heroic aspects to the Serenity crew, but no one but River was being hunted for their intrinsic qualities since birth and yeah, the conflict in Firefly didn't seem nearly as morally clear-cut as WWII.
Although, I don't find the Jewish resistance fighters as obnoxious as comparing the outer planets + Serenity crew to the American Confederacy without any evidence of racial slavery en masse. And the Serenity crew diametrically opposed to any slavery that they encountered from a particular planet- i.e. Jaynestown. IMO, the Serenity crew aren't quite Jewish resistance fighters but they're closer to the former than the American Confederacy!
Reply
Even though Alicia's the main character, she still doesn't get a story as interesting as supporting!Joan in S5 when Joan's had it with being Roger's Rich Man's Mistress and she's finally thrown Greg out.
Ha, I think that's exactly it. And while Alicia can reject Peter (to different degrees) after Will's death, she still "gets to" idealize her/Will and see him as the one that got away, rather than someone she actively has to choose to keep away from permanently while also avoiding Peter. I don't actually think that her whole story should be *only* rejecting both, but given how much focus those ships have on the show and on how Alicia defines herself (and how her career goes...) it is an omission that there is no period where that is true. I think that they missed the opportunity to have Alicia...totally on board with both guys. I think there were some periods where this was true-ish (where she was on okay terms with both).
In actuality there are three powerful men in Alicia's life consistently in the show (up until Will's death) (four if you count Eli who I don't because he's too closely associated with Peter, five if you count Zach because I don't think his hacking is at power levels yet, six if -- well anyway), where Cary is the third. And Cary is the one case where there's no romantic tension, and is probably the healthiest relationship. In a way Cary, Will and Peter all have different strengths and weaknesses (advantages/disadvantages) as lawyers but especially as men. I think the answer might be that if she were most distant from Will or Peter, she'd get cozier with Cary, not romantically but, well, what actually happened (merger).
Reply
Leave a comment