Top Fives: Top Five Times When Angel Was a Dick and Top Five West Wing Friendships

[sunclouds33]

My latest batch of Top Fives. I chose to tackle local_max Top Five Moments Where Angel Was a Dick and lokifan Top Five West Wing Friendships. More lists later!

Per local_max and my brief conversation here, I struggled a bit on how to define "dick". I ultimately came down on the side that "dick" is a diminutive term used to describe people or occasions where people are

Comments

[local_max]

Ha, I agree with those selections. "School Hard" is one of the all-time biggest ones. Even if we give him latitude on his strategy - and I'm willing to grant, for the purposes of discussion at least, that it is a flaw in the writing of the episode, that Angel's plan makes sense in-universe for some fuzzy reason that the script failed to articulate, and that we shouldn't hold Angel responsible for the pointlessness of the plan, we are STILL left with Angel throwing Xander into this plan without telling him any of the content of the plan and then letting him believe afterwards he would have totally sacrificed him. I mean, what the hell man

[sunclouds33]

Ha, I agree with those selections. "School Hard" is one of the all-time biggest ones. Even if we give him latitude on his strategy - and I'm willing to grant, for the purposes of discussion at least, that it is a flaw in the writing of the episode, that Angel's plan makes sense in-universe for some fuzzy reason that the script failed to articulate, and that we shouldn't hold Angel responsible for the pointlessness of the plan, we are STILL left with Angel throwing Xander into this plan without telling him any of the content of the plan and then letting him believe afterwards he would have totally sacrificed him. I mean, what the hell man.Yup. I do have a feeling from the standpoint of authorial intent that Angel's plan was *supposed* to make sense- but the script-writers failed to convey why. But then, I also get the sense that the authors wanted this trick to be seen as a little mean, but ultimately no where near damaging to their efforts to build Angel up as a swoony love interest for Buffy. Angel did come off many times worse based

[local_max]

Y'know, I was thinking, I think that Angel might have had a good reason behind the Somnambulist outburst. It's easy to write it off as more of the same given his other behaviour, but I think that its role in that episode itself is more this: I think it's important for him to establish *to Wesley* that he could easily overpower Wesley in one of Wesley's heartbeats if he decided to be an evil murdering monster again, so that if it turns out he is becoming an evil murdering monster again in his sleep, Wesley knows that he can't really handle it without huge precautions. Wesley's belief that he could take Angelus on could get him killed, and Angel's gonna make sure he knows that. That is still kind of dickish, but I think that read makes Angel's action read a bit differently and for a real purpose. This is different from knocking Lorne's hat off because he finds Lorne annoying -- in that Angel at this point really does want his friends to remember how dangerous he is, because part of the reason he has them around is to kill him in case he

[sunclouds33]

I'm still dubious, but I see your point. I mainly think that Angel choke-holded Wesley because Angel was irritated by Wesley holding up a cross and treating him like a threat. Angel wanted a sympathetic and *trusting* hearing from Wesley and Cordelia even though he was about to confess that he might be very dangerous so ironically, Angel demanded that benefit of the doubt by force.

Angel walks forward and Wesley threatens him with a cross: “Come no closer!”
Angel turns his head away from the cross: “I’m not going to hurt you.”
Cordy: “Oh, is that what you told Miss ‘third body found in alley’?”
Wesley: “Why should we believe a word you say?”
Angel laughs, grabs Wesley’s arm and spins him around to grab him by the neck: “Because this is how fast I could take you if I wanted to.”Angel said, "I'm not going to hurt you" like it was a point on why Wesley shouldn't hold up a cross. When Wesley didn't listen and further challenged Angel, *that's* when Angel started the choke-hold. Then the conversation proceeded the way Angel demanded

[pocochina]

ALWAYS here for talking about Angel being a dick!

(1) This bothers the shit out of me. I feel like it's Angel trying to push and exercise his dominance over Xander and Spike at the same time? To see if he can play Spike in front of Spike's guys, or failing that, to show Xander how little Xander's life is worth to him. Dick move, Angel!

(2) SUCH a dick! Particularly since he's playing that card specifically so he can manipulate Buffy. ugh.

(3) This is something people love to let Angel and characters like him off the hook for. "Oh, well, he's bullying them constantly just to show that he can, but at least they know to be grateful he's not murdering them horribly!" Yeah, that makes it better.

(4) Yes, THANK you. He was SO irresponsible about Conner.

(5) I almost feel like that was how Angel acted precisely because he knew he bore some responsibility for Fred's death in some ways and he didn't want Wesley to catch him out about it, so he pulled rank while Wes was still destabilized by grief. He didn't care one way or another about

[sunclouds33]

This bothers the shit out of me. I feel like it's Angel trying to push and exercise his dominance over Xander and Spike at the same time? To see if he can play Spike in front of Spike's guys, or failing that, to show Xander how little Xander's life is worth to him. Dick move, Angel!

I agree. Good point about dominating Spike. Much of BtVS acts like Angel is long past his old Scourge of Europe mates and the jockeying for power and control there and he's moved on- but AtS disproves that pretty thoroughly.

SUCH a dick! Particularly since he's playing that card specifically so he can manipulate Buffy. ugh.Ick. It makes me wonder whether a part of Angel thinks that *Buffy* is as dumb as a post since he definitely thinks he can manipulate her and he openly relishes it when he's soulless. ("And you fall for it every single time!"; "What did you expect, a choir of pretty little birdies?") And since we know that Buffy is definitely no dummy but Angel manipulated her, it really calls into question whether this gypsy girl was about as sharp

[local_max]

Haha, I was waiting excitedly for your comment on this entry!

[pocochina]

(1) it does mean that Leo has to swallow quite a bit of indignity because he convinced his then less wealthy, less famous, friend who never served in the military that he's the one who should run for president.

You know, I've never actually seen that being a problem for Leo? He just doesn't seem to have a particularly high opinion of himself. That startled little look he gives whenever one of them says something nice about him, like, "oh, you noticed me, you mean that?" I don't think it really occurred to Leo that he could.

(2) SO GREAT

(3) Toby and Josh fight interestingly and their conflict lines feel very real but they're also there for each other as friendsHa, yeah, Toby and Josh seem to be really well-matched in how thick their skins are. They can push and yell and screw with each other all they want because neither of them quite seems to take it too far

[sunclouds33]

You know, I've never actually seen that being a problem for Leo? He just doesn't seem to have a particularly high opinion of himself. That startled little look he gives whenever one of them says something nice about him, like, "oh, you noticed me, you mean that?" I don't think it really occurred to Leo that he could.

I agree. I mean, Leo does have a problem when Bartlet rejects his counsel partly because it hurt his self-esteem. I think there are Two Leos- he's brimming with confidence about his own competence and the rightness of his political convictions. He lays down the law very easily with everyone. However, I think, personally, his addictions and his failed relationships with his wife and daughter took a lot of out of him and shamed him a lot. I find it revealing when he instantly accepts and embraces Jed after learning that he had MS and lied about it because when Leo was drunkenly lying face down in a parking lot, Jed came to get him.

Ha, yeah, Toby and Josh seem to be really well-matched in how thick their skins are. They

[velvetwhip]

So, I'm making up for all the time I didn't know you and going back and reading past entries. As much as I am an Angel fan, you make some really excellent points here. He does play the churl card more often than is entirely excusable.

Gabrielle

[sunclouds33]

I love your retroactive comments on my meta! I'm enjoying reading them and responding to them.

I think Angel is fascinating- well-written and by BtVS S2, well-acted by DB. However, I frequently don't *like* him- especially past S1 on AtS. I did write a counterpoint to this list-
Top 5 Moments Where Angel Was NOT A Dick which should be more fun for an Angel-fan to read. ;-)