Cookie Dough Nation (first attempt)

[substitute]

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1 Cor 11

Nick and I talked about culture tonight. I was still thinking about the conversation about Chuck Klosterman I'd had with threepunchstuff and we were on a similar topic: what the hell happened to culture in the last

Comments

[threepunchstuff]

The topic calls for deeper exploration because of the times we're in. What I'm troubled about is that the value of "well-made things," and the merits of bothering to make things well, are being called into question to a greater extent than any other time I can recall. The general anti-elitist drift of mainstream culture is hardening into open hostility. And it's not coming just from the usual quarters, but from people like the Klostermans who know full well that they know better. And it's also not just isolated to pop culture, but all endeavors requiring effort and imagination. The basic American character is being redefined downward. Craftsmanship used to be one of our traditional virtues. Nowadays if you build and try to sell a machine that lasts longer (but costs slightly more), or give a speech with full subject-verb agreement, you're not just dismissed as an egghead, you're suspected of being French.

Irony is the bridge between idealism and collaboration.

[substitute]

The war on French culture was a war on artists, homosexuals, and intellectuals. Like European or Russian anti-semitic campaigns it was carried out in barely concealed code

[jeffholland]

I'm not a big fan of social hierarchies, but I do enjoy structure of idea, like the Roget's Thesaurus, which showed not only relation of ideas, but almost a mystical order to the universe. Which leads me to believe that it's the post-modernists hatred of Aristotle (not undeserving) that is throwing out category and mashing everything into unrecognizable lumps of shit. And while juxtapostion and surprise are great, the spice of life maybe, all of this recombinatory mayhem is beyond the limits of enthusiasm. What's missing is a little platonic splendor. Doesn't have to be the three-eyed god of Grxxderoak.

On the other hand, a good friend of mine is a post-modern fiend. And I happen to be a fan of his out of high school loyalty.

[substitute]

Aristotle... yes. Hierarchies are a big problem, but a big pail of goo is troublesome too. Babies flying out of bathwater everywhere.

As in almost all such cases of a trend gone wild, individual postmodern pastiche artists, nostalgians, and kid kulture freaks have done great stuff. As a movement it makes me ill, though.

[jeffholland]

Hooligans! Miscreants!

[bruisedhips]

You have no idea how sad I am that I missed you and Nick having this discussion.

I was thinking about this yesterday and how you can tell which of the kids owen goes to school with will turn out like the cookie dough bandit.
I wonder if it's genetics or parenting?

[eamajyn]

Maybe it's a wee bit nature and a whole lot nurture. That's what it seems like to me.

And once again, Conrad, I have not much to add to this. But you nailed it.

[do_not_lick]

I like pie

[do_not_lick]

I like pie

[halfjack]

I suspect that more sophisticated culture requires a certain amount of training to appreciate, and we no longer use Universities for that kind of education, but rather use them as giant vocational training institutes. The emphasis on making money leaves little room for complex pleasures. I guess I think people are not growing up because they are at once being failed by the changed ideals for adulthood reflected in the modern education and the ease with which basic instinctual gratification can be had if you focus on the carrot instead of the scenery. This is sufficient and so completely sufficient that many are not even tempted to spend the effort to discover more.

I note that this tendency also produces solipsists, which is another childhood hangover, and solipsism breeds a contempt of all others to the extent that it makes sense to just kill them if they bug you and deride others for suggesting a more civilized and human approach to building a society while surviving its diseases.

[hersheyjumper]

Um, does that mean that unsophisticated people are somehow...less human?

[halfjack]

Typo for humane.