It's not that I'm obsessed with your chest, it's only that I care. *G*

[stoney321]

I did 15 training miles on Saturday and 18 miles yesterday. Today is an off day for walking (only strength training to build up my knees) and then I'm going for an hour and a half long massage. Ooooooh, bliss. Later, I'll hit the county courthouse for early voting. \o/ Seriously: if there's any way you can vote early, do. It's going to be a

Comments

[botias]

I hate to say it, but many big, respected studies have shown that women that do breast exams are not less likely to die of the big C than those that don't; they are just more likely to undergo unnecessary biopsies. :( If we love our boobs and our bodies we should exercise \o/, eat our five servings of fruits and veggies every day, and maintain a healthy weight. Oh, and having kids before you are thirty and breastfeeding doesn't hurt, but many people understandably don't want to go quite that far.

I love what you are doing BTW. :)

[stoney321]

Well, I'm going to give you a stern face and say that women that give themselves BSEs are more likely to pay attention to their health and are more likely to SEE a doctor for a more comprehensive exam. Studies have shown this.

Can you diagnose yourself? Of course not. Should you take steps to be more in charge of your own health? Absolutely, and this includes self-examination, eating healthy foods, and exercise.

I'm grateful for the donation you made and for your support, but enough women don't care for themselves as it is - I don't want to encourage them to continue that mindset!

[botias]

Perhaps so. It just worry that it gives women the idea that this ritual actually protects them so they aren't demanding things that actually do work, or paying adequate attention to the things they can do that will actually make them less likely to die of cancer. It makes me sad when I go in for my yearly exam and my practitioner asks me if I do this woman power ritual, but doesn't ask about my diet, or my extra twenty pounds, things which might actually save my life. :(

[stoney321]

That may be an issue with your doctor, then.

I need you to understand that this is a post of positive reinforcement that is encouraging MORE than just a BSE, if you read carefully. I'm finding the negativity in your comments to be upsetting. I'm trying to encourage women to pay attention to their bodies AND go to a doctor. I routinely encourage my flisters to pay attention to what they eat, get regular exercise, etc.

This post is on a particular focus.

[botias]

I'm sorry I am upsetting you. I just want less women to die of breast cancer, and I know you want that too. I thought you might like to know what the research is showing.

And you did know that if found early 98% of you will survive? The caveat, of course, is that you are checking.

You seem to be telling women here that they are much more likely to die of breast cancer if they don't do BSEs. That's scary stuff, and it's just not true. That's not an attack on you personally; how could it be? *is confused*

[stoney321]

I feel like you are being purposely obtuse to further your agenda which... I don't really know what it is. You want women to give up with self examination? That's a horrible idea. You want to skip over the fact that I've linked to free mammogram locations to encourage women to have thorough exams done? How dare you suggest that I'm telling women that they will DIE of breast cancer if they don't perform BSEs. I don't think anyone except yourself has come to that radical conclusion.

I CLEARLY linked to ways for women to see their medical professionals for comprehensive screenings, so I'm not advocating that the ONLY WAY to save your life if you have breast cancer is to jiggle your tits in your paws once a month.

I didn't say you were attacking ME, but the concept of this post which is this: EARLY DETECTION SAVES LIVES. Period. That is irrefutable, I'm sorry that you can't understand that. BSE is a PART OF EARLY DETECTION. It's not the only method, as I have stated here multiple times and in the post

I THINK I FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT, our disconnect.

[stoney321]

Here you say: "It [sic] just worry that it gives women the idea that this ritual actually protects them"

THERE IT IS!
1) I'm not in any way saying that breast exams PREVENT cancer. That would be ludicrous. No one else is saying that either, if that helps ease your worries.
2) it's important to know that with breast cancer, you can't create a check off list of "if __/then you get breast cancer." That's a major fallacy, and one of the reasons why a lot of women say "it can't be me, I eat well, am vegetarian, exercise... I'll never get breast cancer." Not true, unfortunately!

As I mentioned in my post, you just can't be sure you WON'T get it, so take every precaution to (obviously) live a healthy life (that's pretty much the M.O. for this journal) and to use preventative methods.

So. I'm hoping that clears everything up, because I've been really upset that we've had this back-and-forth, I've hated that I've been sharp. I want this to be a positive post with encouraging comments.

Re: I THINK I FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT, our disconnect.

[botias]

I'm sorry this has gotten you so upset! :(:( And unfortunately that was not our disconnect. Clearly I don't think you, or anyone, thinks feeling one's breasts PREVENTS cancer. I read some of your statements to mean: if you don't do BSEs, you increase your chances of dying of breast cancer significantly.

At this time, I don't believe that's the case, though I welcome any studies that show the contrary. I do believe there are a number of things a woman CAN do to decrease her chances of dying of breast cancer.

Positive note! I find myself newly inspired to practice prevention due to our discussion. It helped me to remember that regular exercise is not a luxury or just 'one more thing' on my to-do list, but could potentially have a huge impact on my life and the people that love me.

[tabaqui]

Funny, the Mayo Clinic says differently.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/breast-self-exam/WO00026

Breast self-exams contribute greatly to breast awareness, teaching you how your breasts vary in sensitivity and texture at different times during your menstrual cycle and different stages of life. This sense of what's normal is known as breast familiarity.

Benefits of breast familiarity
When you know the normal feel of your breasts, it's easier to notice subtle but potentially serious changes.

I wouldn't give up on the self-exam just yet.

[thebratqueen]

It was two studies, one in Shanghai and one in Russia, and while the media hopped on it for the "BSES DO NOT WORK!!!" method of grabbing a news cycle, those who actually looked at the tests disagreed:

Breast Self-Exam Controversy: Despite What You Have Heard, It’s Still a Good Idea

Self breast examination and cancer

Self exams and mammograms valuable?

New Guidelines Against Breast Self-Examination Could Seriously Endanger Women’s Health

Some key quotes for the tl;dr:

“New guidelines recommending that women not perform breast self-examinations (BSEs) could seriously endanger women’s health and lead to later detection of cancers in some women,” says Marisa Weiss, M.D., president and founder of Breastcancer.org and a leading breast cancer oncologist. “These guidelines do not reflect a new point of view, but they are still very bad advice

[botias]

I read the first three articles, and the conclusion I got from them was this:

"It seems obvious to me that if you touch your breasts, you will know more about yourself than if you don't touch your breasts." and "...a potential survival benefit."

These are much different statements than: BSEs significantly reduce your risk of dying of breast cancer; a number of big, well-designed studies have proven this.

If you know of any articles that say that, I would genuinely love to read them. I really want there to be a simple, fast, way for women to reduce their breast cancer mortality. I want to be wrong!

One of the articles says that BSEs are 'common sense'. I can think of at least one 'common sense' reason why BSEs do not reduce cancer mortality: it may be that the cancers that spread very aggressively are already too advanced by the time a BSE would detect them, and the less-aggressive cancers are caught early enough by both BSEs and more casual body awareness.

[dovil]

Sorry to butt in but it's like saying that it has to be either or. Exercise and diet and going for regular doctor check ups and scans may help prevent and/or catch cancer at an early enough stage for treatment to be effective. Self examination is just ANOTHER part of the tick list for detection that we can do ourselves that takes a couple of minutes a month and that has the support of the medical profession and has saved lives.

But you seem to be advocating that it's pointless to look for changes in our bodies such as breast lumps, or I take it, mole changes etc because...? People find changes, go to their doctors, get treatment, lives are saved...what is exactly wrong in this set up?

[botias]

I'm not saying it's either/or. Stoney seemed to be saying that women are much more likely to die of breast cancer if they don't examine themselves monthly. So they should start. You seem to say here that BSEs save lives.

I was just saying that, out of the 'toolbox' that has been presented to women, some of them have since been proven to help, but BSEs have not passed that test. More women might live if the breast cancer movement focused on those things that have been proven, and let go of those things that have not, even if it means a smaller number of tools in the tool chest.

It's clearly not pointless to keep tabs on one's body and changes in it, but there is good evidence that the closer scrutiny of careful monthly breast exams does not yield benefits greater than a more casual awareness. I know that for me, more biopsies is not nothing to be concerned about, financially or emotionally, and apparently for no benefit.

I think this article discusses it really well.

[entrenous88]

I just read through this conversation, and I have to say I'm really puzzled why you're sticking so adamantly to this point.

No one is saying women should only do breast-exams on themselves and throw every other method of detection or prevention out the window. Doctors across the board recommend doing breast-exams at home on a regular basis in addition to paying attention to diet, exercising, getting yearly gyno and internist exams, becoming aware of family history of that and other cancers, etc., etc.

No one is saying that this is a free ride to preventing cancer, or that this is the shortcut to survival, and if you do it you'll be guaranteed anything. I think you're making your argument against that stand, but I see no one actually articulating such a position

[thebratqueen]

Just because there are cancers that BSEs do not detect does not negate the cancers that they do. The studies that were cited were specifically looking to see if BSEs could be used instead of mammograms for those who could not get mammograms (answer: sadly no).

For those of us who can get mammograms it's part and parcel of a whole. BSEs cannot replace full on cancer screening, but the only downside is, as the Mayo Clinic says that there's a chance that you may find a lump that was nothing and therefore have an unnecessary biopsy.

As Sloan-Kettering says "[B]ecause BSE is easy and free, and may detect some cancers, women are not discouraged from performing regular BSE."

[stoney321]

I continue to love you. And your bewbs.

Also, funny how most of us don't wake up with our doctors manipulating our breasts daily, checking for irregularities.

...and if you *do* wake up with your doctor holding your breasts, it's time for a new doctor.