Too Jewish?

[eveningblue]

Something that has always interested me (and that came up in this discussion of Jewish characters played by non-Jewish seeming actors) is this notion of a tv show seeming "too Jewish" by Hollywood standards. rydra_wrong explains this phenomenon here:

Neal Gabler's An Empire Of Their Own: How The Jews Invented Hollywood argues that this is precisely why

Comments

[skywaterblue]

Josh Lyman from the West Wing is a Jewish character played by a WASP. On the other hand, Toby Ziegler is a Jewish character played by a Jew, and one of the frissons of their relationship is that they stick up for each other in the White House (as Jews), but Toby himself is fairly condescending to Josh because he's 'not Jewish enough' for Toby's standards.

Really though, everything Aaron Sorkin's ever written qualifies as this.

[eveningblue]

Great example. I love Toby so much because he is Jewish enough to go to temple and yet his Jewishness does not become the main focus of the show. And I like how he kids Josh for being a "Connecticut Jew." Some of the complexities of Jewishness are actually explored and displayed, which is rare for a tv show.

[npkedit]

As an Orthodox Jew I wouldn't have classified Toby as all that Jewish. The one thing I've always remembered about Toby was that awful flashback ep, where his dad was supposed to part of the Jewish mafia (a lot of them went to Yeshiva after all), but their Yiddish was so awful my mom and I were laughing. All we could think was, they couldn't get better speakers than this?

[dafnagreer]

I loved that! It instantly became my favorite bit of spoken Hebrew in a non-Israeli show. Runners-up are Jason Isaacs in that ep of West Wing and that Coupling episode with the Israeli chick.

[skywaterblue]

They're both Reform. The difference is that Toby believes in God and goes to Temple, whereas Josh seems on his best days to be agnostic.

[jonbaker]

That episode was the writers' response to the reaction to the previous year's Christmas episode. The previous year's episode was all about chessed shel emes - a good turn with no possibility of recompense, in that it's taking care of the funeral of a person with no one else to do it for him. It was totally Jewish, even if the dead veteran wasn't - the idea was. The reactions of everyone around him - how weird it is that this random gov't official is taking an interest in this dead vet, who happened to pick up his used coat - well, mamadeb has been making similar comments lately, how non-Jews of her acquaintance react oddly to Jewish ideas of charity

[skywaterblue]

They're actually several years apart. "In Excelsis Deo" is first season, "Holy Night" is in the fourth, but you're right about how "In Excelsis Deo" totally demands an understanding of Jewish funeral traditions.

[mamadeb]

Actually, Jonathan, I think the one with Yo-Yo Ma was the extremely Christmassy one. (This was the one with Elliot Gould and Josh's PTSD after the shooting.)

[aecamadi]

Actually, Toby's father's reminiscences are about the group singing, not the carol itself. I have the sound file as an .mp3 and I'm listening now. It's the Whiffenpoofs from Yale University, who Toby's father fanboys a bit in the flashback of him in the car with his Murder, Inc. cronies, talking about his new son right before they go kill a few guys. He's amazed to be who he is, in the place where he is, with a son like his (two sons, one must imagine), with a past like his. Recall that Toby's feelings about his father are not charitable, and he's more than a bit distressed that he could even get clearance to be in the building.

The other voiceover over the song, interestingly, was about Josh's efforts to get a NGO into Bethlehem to make repairs to the church/pilgrimage site there, in advance of Christmas, and his plans to work the phones all night to make it happen. Lots of significance there, too.

mod note

[chopchica]

As an Orthodox Jew I wouldn't have classified Toby as all that Jewish.

Hi, I appreciate that you're coming into the discussion with all of this enthusiasm, but it's really not okay to use phrases that judge other people's levels of Jewishiness according to your standards. Statements such as those limit discussion, and they're leaving some members of the community with the feeling that they themselves don't qualify by these rules and measures.

[giandujakiss]

There was an awesomely perceptive ezchange between Toby and Josh in one episode - they were discussing the strategy of Bartlett's opponent, and Toby basically highlighted the subtext of his political message, which was anti-Semitic. And Josh said something like, you trying to imply that I'm not as good a Jew as you because my anti-Semitism meter is not as sensitive. It was so perfect I could've died.

[skywaterblue]

This moment exactly. It's in "20 Hours in America". It makes me want to write essays.

the mod hat returneth

[chopchica]

I'm going to repeat what I've said elsewhere, which is that language like "Jewish enough to go to temple" makes it sound as if there is some hierarchy of Judaism and Toby qualifies while others (including Josh, another Jew on the show) don't.

I appreciate that you're coming into this with a lot of enthusiasm and really want to open up discussion, but without meaning to, by making posts and leaving comments saying we need "definitive proof" in order for somebody to be considered Jewish or that because somebody is Italian, he therefore can't also be Jewish - those *limit* discussion, and they're leaving some members of the community with the feeling that they themselves don't qualify by these rules and measures.

Re: the mod hat returneth

[eveningblue]

I'm very sorry. I should have said "observant" enough. My mistake. I certainly don't mean to make other people feel unwelcome. I will shut up now.

Re: the mod hat returneth

[chopchica]

Seconding jadelennox! You don't have to shut up at all! I'm really glad you're bringing such passion and enthusiasm to the comm!