It's been a long time comin'...
So I was reading my lovely google reader (and loving it!) and I saw a post by the incomparable Robert about the future of gay rights legislation. He pulled the post to edit it so when I went to comment and it was gone I emailed him some of my thoughts.
He posted the emails and some more explanation of the original article on his blog which prompted some interesting comments and an excellent debate between the illustrious Christopher.
Now Rob's main point in the original post was to talk about how regardless if gay via genetics/choice, it's wholly irrelevant to the legal process. It shouldn't matter in terms of legalities. I misquoted Rob slightly in the opening para of my chat. I understand what I wrote in my head (heh), but it doesn't come off accurately. I was the one touting about genetics and defects and he was saying that the issue of homosexuality as biology is still one that's not entirely proven (I know, I know, we've all seen the research, please literally show it to someone who cares. They're the only ones who will look at it with any conviction, unfortunately they probably don't matter) and people are disregarding the choice argument when it can be very beneficial to the cause. He wasn't saying the choice issue was without flaw, but definitely that it should be added to build up the debate even more.
"I'm not sure which mode the public responds to better, but it's for sure that there are enough holes in the biology arguments that we should at least be pushing the choice arguments along with them.... You win when people learn and expect that not everybody forms relationships the same way, and you win when policy reflects that assumption. It has to be just like people wouldn't assume everyone was their religion and pass laws based on that assumption."
What Chris and I were arguing about was more to do with the definitions of homosexuality and how to get any change to come about in the legal process. Should you argue for choice and if you do how is it in any way effective and not degrading. I'm more on the pro-choice side (for the first and only time ever, ha!), and he's on the gentics side.
A lot of it was written quickly and passionately, but I thought some really valid and interesting things were said. Even some that I responded too but still want to think about some more.
You know how I hate to think alone though so read it all and we'll hash it out!
Chris = Guy, heh
10:44 AM me:I had a very interesting conversation with Rob/interim32 today
This last weekend I mean
10:45 AM Guy: So this new convo was on?
10:47 AM me: He was talking about being gay being a lifestyle choice, a very important one, but in terms purely of culture it's a choice. He thinks that the way to really "reconcile" homosexuality (if you will) is to get people to respect the choice of it rather than to blame it on a defect of genetics.
10:48 AM I agreed saying that once people only look at genetics then they start thinking of cures for it, etc. That being gay shouldn't be equated to having Down's or what have you.
10:49 AM In terms of choice he equated it to choosing your religion, your politics, etc. I don't think he's denying that everyone is born with a sexual predisposition, but in terms of naming it and living a certain lifestyle, a choice has to be made
10:50 AM So I told him that I was glad he researched other angles of the issue, and I knew he was capable of this, which is why I always get on him about the race stuff
me: Oh drama: http://www.brainporn.org/?p=3203
10:58 AM me: brb, going to reply
11:02 AM Guy: drama?
me: In the comments
Did you get the link I sent?
11:03 AM Guy: I did yes
S'not really drama is it?
Drama-potential
But not drama
Incidentally I agree with the first guy somewhat.
I think
If I understand him right
11:04 AM me: I'm still trying to understand him right, I believe I get the gist of what he's saying, and I think we're actually on the same page
but there's a difference between what you know is right, and what will work, you know?
11:06 AM Guy: Honestly if you're arguing we should ignore truth because it won't work?
That's where we're going to fundementally disagree
me: No, I'm arguing "truth isn't working, now what?"
11:07 AM You shouldn't discriminate against POC or gays
Truth
It happens, now what?
Because telling isn't working, you see?
Guy: Not really
me: That's what I'm arguing, what's real and right and correct doesn't matter if it doesn't work
11:08 AM Make it work first, and then define the problems
Guy: Well, it "doesn't work" only if your sole reasoning for working out why gay people occur is to reassure bigots
me: keep typing, on call
11:09 AM Guy: It sounds like you're saying "it sounds like homosexuality is probably partly genetic, but lets not tell ignorant people that, because they might get involved in some high end scientific experiments to try to change that. Let's make them more ignorant by feeding them half-truths and lies by omission".
11:10 AM me: I think what's hard to accept is that there are people out there who are not going to change, and a lot of times these people are making decisions that affect the lives of people they disregard.
11:11 AM Guy: I don't find that hard to accept at all
me: So no, we're not going to deny homosexuality is genetic
but when we keep saying "homosexuality is genetic" and nothing is being done
Then you have to go to the next step
If they want to harp on about it being a choice, let them.
11:12 AM Say yes, it's a choice, just like religion is a choice, political influence is a choice, it's a goddanged hard choice that effects the rest of your life
see what they say to that, then go to the next step
11:13 AM Guy: But it's not a choice.
You're playing semantics to mollycoddle bigots
11:14 AM me: I think to engage in the homosexual lifestyle, as a culture. To get a boyfriend/partner/husband, live with them, identify as gay is a choice
Because there are several who have yet to make it
Due to a whole lot of bigotry
Guy: Which is fine, but not the base argument
me: It's not a choice that is frivolous, but it's one that was thrust on you
11:15 AM me: It is the base argument when talking about rights and discrimination when the only argument currently is "it's not a choice"
Guy: Well it's not.
Guy: You're arguing "having sex with men is a choice" in answer to "wanting to have sex with men is a choice"
me: No
wait,
Guy: If you choose to have a boyfriend, then you're not "choosing to be straight".
me: Yes you are, if you're choosing
Guy: The gayness is not the choice Sticks. If you choose not to lead an openly gay lifestyle, you're still gay.
me: No, I'm talking purely culturally
Gay as a lifestyle is created, like "being black" is created
but it still exists
11:17 AM Guy: Well, again YOU'RE talking culturally in answer to an argument that's not cultural
me: A gay man who marries a woman and has kids has chosen to not live the gay lifestyle
Doesn't mean he isn't gay,
Guy: So how is being gay a choice then?
me: But we're talking about issues that directly effect those who are subscribing to the gay culture
Guy: Whatever choice you make, you're still gay.
me: Adoption, benefits, retirement
11:18 AM these are things that don't effect gay people, they effect people who have chosen to be gay
That's what I'm arguing
It's not the most optimal choice, the best decision is "hey, why does it matter, I'm human, treat me as such"
but we don't live in that world
11:19 AM You have to argue with what you have and when they come back with a counter you hit them back until you get some results
In the gay fight you can't fight for all gays, and that sucks, but it is the current situation
BUT!
Guy: I really don't. I'm not arguing something I don't subscribe to just to get dollar Sticks
That would be repulsive
me: Once you get that settled down, you lessen the stigma on gay, and you get less people willing to hide from their sexuality
11:20 AM What do you mean?
Your comment up there
Guy: You argue "gay is choice" enough Sticks, no matter what you say to "explain" that's what people will hear.
And their response will be "well why didn't you make the right choice then?"
11:21 AM The best you can expect with that argument is patronising pity
me: but when you equate it with something they can understand then you can argue oppression
Guy: "Oh I'm sorry for you, you had to make such a hard choice. I still think homosexuality is wrong but here, have a head pat"
me: Being Christian is a choice, but several were persecuted because of it.
11:22 AM Being openly gay is a choice, and several are persecuted because of it.
Guy: And would your response to that be "oh it was really hard for me when I made the choice to be a Christian"?
Guy: I would hope you were better than to grub for pity like that.
11:23 AM me: No, and that shouldn't be the response to a choice of sexuality either. The answers can very, the issue is that it isn't a passive choice
me: Considering the state of bigotry against homosexuality it is a hard choice,
It has nothing to do with grubbing for pity
it has to do with exploiting the system
Because once you establish it as a hard choice you go into asking why
11:24 AM and they can't escape an answer of "you"
Guy: So it's grubbing for pity AND laying a guilt trip on people?
me: Yes, and get people guilty and they'll start acting
11:25 AM There is nothing shameful or pitiful about asking for what is yours
Guy: Psychologically speaking Sticks, guilt isn't really the best state to get people in if you want them to act positively.
me: There is nothing at all rude about holding people accountable for their actions
if it's the only language that they'll understand you have to speak to them in it because they don't care about you or your situation, they care about themselves.
11:26 AM Civil rights legislation, women's voting rights, all byproducts of guilt
It's effective as hell, it can't be denied
11:29 AM Guy: But the push for rights is different than the push for acceptance.
Assuming that if somethnig worked for the suffragettes it'll work for the gays is naive at best
11:30 AM You tell people you made an informed choice based on all the evidence available to you, their sympathy for you will go down, not up.
me: keep typing, brb
Guy: They'll tell you that everyone has to make difficult decisions.
And that life is hard.
Besides, the root of it BEING a "difficult choice" is genetics and there's no escaping that.
me: "But the push for rights is different than the push for acceptance."
Exactly, and the push for acceptance won't come until rights are in order I think. Which seems backwards, but based on the way this country has "progressed" so far is pretty true. There are too many people still alive blindly hating to make a push for acceptance yet, and this is not just gays, but blacks, POC, etc. You have to make them give you what you want, then wait for them to die off and hope that more enlightened versions get born in the process.
Final thoughts: Guy had to go before we could conclude so I won't respond further to his final concern out of respect (and I'll know he'll have an excellent rebuttal), but I do want to say I know the guilt thing seems crude. I must stress though that guilt in and of itself is hardly effective, but guilt on a road to accpetance and understanding can be. Guilt is a form of compassion and the only way to get some people to see you is to relate your plight directly back to them, if they are in a situation where they cannot relate then you have to make them feel as you did, as you have, as you are feeling.
Now I'm fully prepared to be wrong, and if I am please tell me so I can rethink some of my stances, but there's just too much correalation with past events to make me think this struggle is going be any different than anyone else's.
He posted the emails and some more explanation of the original article on his blog which prompted some interesting comments and an excellent debate between the illustrious Christopher.
Now Rob's main point in the original post was to talk about how regardless if gay via genetics/choice, it's wholly irrelevant to the legal process. It shouldn't matter in terms of legalities. I misquoted Rob slightly in the opening para of my chat. I understand what I wrote in my head (heh), but it doesn't come off accurately. I was the one touting about genetics and defects and he was saying that the issue of homosexuality as biology is still one that's not entirely proven (I know, I know, we've all seen the research, please literally show it to someone who cares. They're the only ones who will look at it with any conviction, unfortunately they probably don't matter) and people are disregarding the choice argument when it can be very beneficial to the cause. He wasn't saying the choice issue was without flaw, but definitely that it should be added to build up the debate even more.
"I'm not sure which mode the public responds to better, but it's for sure that there are enough holes in the biology arguments that we should at least be pushing the choice arguments along with them.... You win when people learn and expect that not everybody forms relationships the same way, and you win when policy reflects that assumption. It has to be just like people wouldn't assume everyone was their religion and pass laws based on that assumption."
What Chris and I were arguing about was more to do with the definitions of homosexuality and how to get any change to come about in the legal process. Should you argue for choice and if you do how is it in any way effective and not degrading. I'm more on the pro-choice side (for the first and only time ever, ha!), and he's on the gentics side.
A lot of it was written quickly and passionately, but I thought some really valid and interesting things were said. Even some that I responded too but still want to think about some more.
You know how I hate to think alone though so read it all and we'll hash it out!
Chris = Guy, heh
10:44 AM me:I had a very interesting conversation with Rob/interim32 today
This last weekend I mean
10:45 AM Guy: So this new convo was on?
10:47 AM me: He was talking about being gay being a lifestyle choice, a very important one, but in terms purely of culture it's a choice. He thinks that the way to really "reconcile" homosexuality (if you will) is to get people to respect the choice of it rather than to blame it on a defect of genetics.
10:48 AM I agreed saying that once people only look at genetics then they start thinking of cures for it, etc. That being gay shouldn't be equated to having Down's or what have you.
10:49 AM In terms of choice he equated it to choosing your religion, your politics, etc. I don't think he's denying that everyone is born with a sexual predisposition, but in terms of naming it and living a certain lifestyle, a choice has to be made
10:50 AM So I told him that I was glad he researched other angles of the issue, and I knew he was capable of this, which is why I always get on him about the race stuff
me: Oh drama: http://www.brainporn.org/?p=3203
10:58 AM me: brb, going to reply
11:02 AM Guy: drama?
me: In the comments
Did you get the link I sent?
11:03 AM Guy: I did yes
S'not really drama is it?
Drama-potential
But not drama
Incidentally I agree with the first guy somewhat.
I think
If I understand him right
11:04 AM me: I'm still trying to understand him right, I believe I get the gist of what he's saying, and I think we're actually on the same page
but there's a difference between what you know is right, and what will work, you know?
11:06 AM Guy: Honestly if you're arguing we should ignore truth because it won't work?
That's where we're going to fundementally disagree
me: No, I'm arguing "truth isn't working, now what?"
11:07 AM You shouldn't discriminate against POC or gays
Truth
It happens, now what?
Because telling isn't working, you see?
Guy: Not really
me: That's what I'm arguing, what's real and right and correct doesn't matter if it doesn't work
11:08 AM Make it work first, and then define the problems
Guy: Well, it "doesn't work" only if your sole reasoning for working out why gay people occur is to reassure bigots
me: keep typing, on call
11:09 AM Guy: It sounds like you're saying "it sounds like homosexuality is probably partly genetic, but lets not tell ignorant people that, because they might get involved in some high end scientific experiments to try to change that. Let's make them more ignorant by feeding them half-truths and lies by omission".
11:10 AM me: I think what's hard to accept is that there are people out there who are not going to change, and a lot of times these people are making decisions that affect the lives of people they disregard.
11:11 AM Guy: I don't find that hard to accept at all
me: So no, we're not going to deny homosexuality is genetic
but when we keep saying "homosexuality is genetic" and nothing is being done
Then you have to go to the next step
If they want to harp on about it being a choice, let them.
11:12 AM Say yes, it's a choice, just like religion is a choice, political influence is a choice, it's a goddanged hard choice that effects the rest of your life
see what they say to that, then go to the next step
11:13 AM Guy: But it's not a choice.
You're playing semantics to mollycoddle bigots
11:14 AM me: I think to engage in the homosexual lifestyle, as a culture. To get a boyfriend/partner/husband, live with them, identify as gay is a choice
Because there are several who have yet to make it
Due to a whole lot of bigotry
Guy: Which is fine, but not the base argument
me: It's not a choice that is frivolous, but it's one that was thrust on you
11:15 AM me: It is the base argument when talking about rights and discrimination when the only argument currently is "it's not a choice"
Guy: Well it's not.
Guy: You're arguing "having sex with men is a choice" in answer to "wanting to have sex with men is a choice"
me: No
wait,
Guy: If you choose to have a boyfriend, then you're not "choosing to be straight".
me: Yes you are, if you're choosing
Guy: The gayness is not the choice Sticks. If you choose not to lead an openly gay lifestyle, you're still gay.
me: No, I'm talking purely culturally
Gay as a lifestyle is created, like "being black" is created
but it still exists
11:17 AM Guy: Well, again YOU'RE talking culturally in answer to an argument that's not cultural
me: A gay man who marries a woman and has kids has chosen to not live the gay lifestyle
Doesn't mean he isn't gay,
Guy: So how is being gay a choice then?
me: But we're talking about issues that directly effect those who are subscribing to the gay culture
Guy: Whatever choice you make, you're still gay.
me: Adoption, benefits, retirement
11:18 AM these are things that don't effect gay people, they effect people who have chosen to be gay
That's what I'm arguing
It's not the most optimal choice, the best decision is "hey, why does it matter, I'm human, treat me as such"
but we don't live in that world
11:19 AM You have to argue with what you have and when they come back with a counter you hit them back until you get some results
In the gay fight you can't fight for all gays, and that sucks, but it is the current situation
BUT!
Guy: I really don't. I'm not arguing something I don't subscribe to just to get dollar Sticks
That would be repulsive
me: Once you get that settled down, you lessen the stigma on gay, and you get less people willing to hide from their sexuality
11:20 AM What do you mean?
Your comment up there
Guy: You argue "gay is choice" enough Sticks, no matter what you say to "explain" that's what people will hear.
And their response will be "well why didn't you make the right choice then?"
11:21 AM The best you can expect with that argument is patronising pity
me: but when you equate it with something they can understand then you can argue oppression
Guy: "Oh I'm sorry for you, you had to make such a hard choice. I still think homosexuality is wrong but here, have a head pat"
me: Being Christian is a choice, but several were persecuted because of it.
11:22 AM Being openly gay is a choice, and several are persecuted because of it.
Guy: And would your response to that be "oh it was really hard for me when I made the choice to be a Christian"?
Guy: I would hope you were better than to grub for pity like that.
11:23 AM me: No, and that shouldn't be the response to a choice of sexuality either. The answers can very, the issue is that it isn't a passive choice
me: Considering the state of bigotry against homosexuality it is a hard choice,
It has nothing to do with grubbing for pity
it has to do with exploiting the system
Because once you establish it as a hard choice you go into asking why
11:24 AM and they can't escape an answer of "you"
Guy: So it's grubbing for pity AND laying a guilt trip on people?
me: Yes, and get people guilty and they'll start acting
11:25 AM There is nothing shameful or pitiful about asking for what is yours
Guy: Psychologically speaking Sticks, guilt isn't really the best state to get people in if you want them to act positively.
me: There is nothing at all rude about holding people accountable for their actions
if it's the only language that they'll understand you have to speak to them in it because they don't care about you or your situation, they care about themselves.
11:26 AM Civil rights legislation, women's voting rights, all byproducts of guilt
It's effective as hell, it can't be denied
11:29 AM Guy: But the push for rights is different than the push for acceptance.
Assuming that if somethnig worked for the suffragettes it'll work for the gays is naive at best
11:30 AM You tell people you made an informed choice based on all the evidence available to you, their sympathy for you will go down, not up.
me: keep typing, brb
Guy: They'll tell you that everyone has to make difficult decisions.
And that life is hard.
Besides, the root of it BEING a "difficult choice" is genetics and there's no escaping that.
me: "But the push for rights is different than the push for acceptance."
Exactly, and the push for acceptance won't come until rights are in order I think. Which seems backwards, but based on the way this country has "progressed" so far is pretty true. There are too many people still alive blindly hating to make a push for acceptance yet, and this is not just gays, but blacks, POC, etc. You have to make them give you what you want, then wait for them to die off and hope that more enlightened versions get born in the process.
Final thoughts: Guy had to go before we could conclude so I won't respond further to his final concern out of respect (and I'll know he'll have an excellent rebuttal), but I do want to say I know the guilt thing seems crude. I must stress though that guilt in and of itself is hardly effective, but guilt on a road to accpetance and understanding can be. Guilt is a form of compassion and the only way to get some people to see you is to relate your plight directly back to them, if they are in a situation where they cannot relate then you have to make them feel as you did, as you have, as you are feeling.
Now I'm fully prepared to be wrong, and if I am please tell me so I can rethink some of my stances, but there's just too much correalation with past events to make me think this struggle is going be any different than anyone else's.