She not a racist!
She's just a moron.
So I've never hidden my disdain for Miss Alli of TWoP but I did make a concentrated effort to not be so vocal about it since I was interacting more there.
She's been pretty low-key and actually smart (as she can be) and funny (as she can be) in the Bug Reports thread where I usually rest my head, and she's even answered a few questions of mine in a civil manner. I don't watch Survivor or Big Brother and I refuse to read anything she recaps (I'm very loyal in my hatred) so really the only clues I get into her moderating madness are through Sucks.
They've been pretty quiet lately, but then Miss Alli wrote this in her recap:
" Lisi immediately goes here: "Eenie meenie miney mo, catch a liar by the toe." Oh, Lisi. I don't think for one minute that she knows just how much she shouldn't do this*, but it's the risk you take when you decide to be a bitch."
(*there's a link to the wiki about the song that I've included below)
This little blurb caused a minor fracas in the forums that Hypnotoad took to sucks and reminded us all again about why Miss Alli Sucks:
Aww. Newbie in the Survivor forum who mistakenly thinks Miss Alli wants to hear criticism about her finale recap:
"I thought Miss Alli's recap was fun and insightful, as usual -- except for on this point about Lisi. To not suspect Lisi's use of the "Eeny Meeny Miny Mo" rhyme is, I have to say, a white person's luxury. If I walked through life throwing such suspicions so easily to the wind, I'd be unarmed in the face of too much racial mind-fuckery." (1*)
Color Miss Alli unhappy. Her response:
To not suspect Lisi's use of the "Eeny Meeny Miny Mo" rhyme is, I have to say, a white person's luxury.
"You know, I don't really mind if you don't like the writing, but I don't appreciate being lectured about my motives any more than you would if you were in my position (2*). My position on Lisi's use of this phrase has to do with thinking she's an idiot, and far too concerned with what other people think to say anything that would so obviously reveal racist attitudes. It has nothing to do with doubting her, or anyone else's, capacity for racism, nor with the seriousness of racism as a societal problem. It has only to do with doubting that she would knowingly put herself in the position she put herself in here.
I am quite confident you could find plenty of black viewers who don't believe she knew anything about this version of the rhyme (3*). Please don't attempt to speak for the entire world, as you do when you suggest that only an ignorant white person could possibly fail to suspect Lisi of making that reference on purpose (4*). I don't think it's helpful for anyone to suggest to anyone else, "The only reason you say that is your race."(5*) "
Deluded newbie, post the second:
You know, I don't really mind if you don't like the writing, but I don't appreciate being lectured about my motives any more than you would if you were in my position.
"I think I made it pretty clear that I do like your writing; and I don't think I "lectured" you at all. For what it's worth, I read your recaps because of their uncommon insight into human nature and the show. I enjoy them a lot and tend to learn things from reading them. Your reading of the Dreamz incident answered a lot of things for me that I couldn't have put together myself. So thanks in general for the recaps. That said, how you saw the Lisi rhyme really surprised me, and makes me try to understand why there's such a distance between how I see it and how you do. I thought I'd weigh in on that. I had no intention of being unfair or dismissive. Just trying to figure it out (6*)."
I am quite confident you could find plenty of black viewers who don't believe she knew anything about this version of the rhyme. Please don't attempt to speak for the entire world, as you do when you suggest that only an ignorant white person could possibly fail to suspect Lisi of making that reference on purpose. I don't think it's helpful for anyone to suggest to anyone else, "The only reason you say that is your race."
"I agree that there are surely black viewers who would say she probably never heard the rhyme before. But I'd also bet that, were there a way to scientifically poll it, you'd find that a viewer's race would change the likelihood of whether or not they suspected a racial motive behind Lisi's rhyme (7*). I bet black viewers would be more likely to think there was something racial behind it, and I think the reason is because black people are taught, by experience, that racism pops up in the most unlikely places and it makes good sense to be wary. White people have less of this experience, so less of this wariness. And the cost to whites of letting go the wariness is small (8*).
My point is not that race is the only thing that drives how a person reads such a moment, but it's one of the things (9*)."
Miss Alli:
"You don't know me; you don't know anything about my motives. My motives are not the topic; your opinion that I ignore racism because I don't adequately care about it unless it costs me personally is not the topic.
The episode is the topic. Let's get on it."(10*)
Let's talk a moment shall we?
(1*) - "To not suspect Lisi's use of the "Eeny Meeny Miny Mo" rhyme is, I have to say, a white person's luxury. If I walked through life throwing such suspicions so easily to the wind, I'd be unarmed in the face of too much racial mind-fuckery"
This came out wrong, but I understood what the poster was saying.
For those of you not in the know the "Eenie Meanie Miney Mo" song used to have a version that said "Catch a nigger by his toe. If he hollers let him go." The childhood version has been very parsed with the word "Tiger" being substituted for "nigger".
Now in the show I'm told the final three are all black and Lisi is white, so while choosing her use of this popular yet controversial child's tune may have been entirely innocent, it was also a bit suspect. In the recap Miss Alli gave Lisi the benefit of the doubt by basically saying she was too self involved to know about or even consider that connotation.
Which... okay, I might give it to her, except I find that the people who get away with vaguely yet ridiculously offensive things are the ones that act the most dumb and innocent. It's very convenient is all, but whatev, that's neither here nor there. What is most important I think is the response.
The fact that Miss Alli saw fit to bring it up, but then cast it off nonchalantly is a bit dismissive of what I guess was a topic of interest in the threads? I just find it odd and I understand the poster's concern, though I don't believe the poster was as concerned with the subject matter as much as how it was handled.
(2*) - "You know, I don't really mind if you don't like the writing, but I don't appreciate being lectured about my motives any more than you would if you were in my position"
Except she said that she did like the writing, and quite a bit. She just took issue with the way you presented one of your opinions. Which if they are sound shouldn't make you as tense and edgy as you became apparently. Since evidently her entire post was about you and what a racist horrible person you are.
(3*) - "I am quite confident you could find plenty of black viewers who don't believe she knew anything about this version of the rhyme "
Dearest White People, don't do this, ever. Seriously, let's freaking nip this crap in the bud right now. A guy friend of mine did it to me once and I've had it done several times before and it's gross, it's annoying, and it's stupid.
Do not pidgeon hole my opinion and think I can understand your stupid point better if you try to relate it back to black people! The whole "Well if I tell her that other black people think the way that I do then she won't have ANY ground to stand on! Because her own people that she's working so hard to defend (because that's what's going on) don't even agree with her! She'll be defenseless and then I can destroy her!" is so... WRONG, just sick and wrong and reeks so heavily of white privilege and disrespect.
Basically, if you have a point to make, make it and base it on facts, but don't try to dumb it down for me by relating it to MY experience as a black person in America, especially in a way to try and pit my black experience against the experiences of other black people. Divide and conquer is a great technique, but it's also nasty and morally suspect.
(4*) - "Please don't attempt to speak for the entire world, as you do when you suggest that only an ignorant white person could possibly fail to suspect Lisi of making that reference on purpose"
Please try to read the post as one having social commentary and not the mission statement of the I Hate Linda Holmes club. I believe that as much as Miss Alli goes on about her own motives she certainly presumed to know a lot about Lisi's. And if MA went to the lengths of exposing the could be racism of this girl, and then debunking it, wouldn't it be reasonable for her posters to call foul?
I think the poster was actually giving Miss Alli a big benefit of the doubt, basically saying "if you don't see it as racist, I can understand why, because you're not prone to see it as racist naturally." I think though, as much as Miss Alli claims to know about everything the poster was holding Miss Alli accountable for such a near sighted statement and Miss Alli read that as an attack. I think to Miss Alli and some other whitefolk I've ran into "White Privilege" = "Racist" which is completely untrue. There's a difference between ignorance and willfull ignorance.
I still don't understand if this was a response to something said in the forums or via email, or if it was just MA trying to show how enlightened she was by knowing things, but basically if you don't want to talk about the subject, don't bring it up, or if you do explain it in a way that is concise and not a throw-a-way.
If you don't want people assuming your "motives", then don't assume you can say something like that and get away with it.
(5*) - "I don't think it's helpful for anyone to suggest to anyone else, "The only reason you say that is your race.""
It's not helpful when you're not willing to have dialogue about it or treat your posters like people of varying opinions. It's not helpful then, even when it's true, and in this case it was.
(6*) - "That said, how you saw the Lisi rhyme really surprised me, and makes me try to understand why there's such a distance between how I see it and how you do. I thought I'd weigh in on that. I had no intention of being unfair or dismissive. Just trying to figure it out "
LOTS of pandering here and I get it, I just like it because it was very well done and set up the next part of what she was saying. I think it really demonstrates that the poster is looking to learn, realized they got a bit emotional but is willing to listen, and really respects MA's opinion that she questioned when MA said something out of line.
Really, those are the people to have on your side. Having supporters is great, but some people fall into the trap of having people who diss them around to "keep them real" or whatever. That's not going to cause you to grow it's going to cause you to hate the world and lie to yourself that you're growing. The best people to surround yourself with are those who genuinely appreciate you so much that when you have a disagreement it bothers them. When they say something that toes that line and you have to know what they really meant and take them to task about it.
Those people are worth the trouble of reevaluating and either dismissing or standing by your original statement, not some haters who just talk trash to talk it.
But I digress. Point? Stop treating your fans like crap and if you are a fan don't take getting treated like crap. It's not worth it to you or to them.
(7*) - " you'd find that a viewer's race would change the likelihood of whether or not they suspected a racial motive behind Lisi's rhyme"
And that's the point. That black people are TRAINED to see these things, and white people have the choice. It just seems odd to me to make that choice openly as Miss Alli did, and then dismiss it.
(8*) - "I think the reason is because black people are taught, by experience, that racism pops up in the most unlikely places and it makes good sense to be wary. White people have less of this experience, so less of this wariness. And the cost to whites of letting go the wariness is small"
And on a purely social level it is. White people have the choice to let go or not acknowledge these little happenstances because ultimately they don't effect them the same way they do a person of color. On a personal level though, you should make sure you surround yourself with people who respect your opinions and values. Internet relationships are great because they allow you to see what's going on in various parts of the world and how certain attitudes are shaped, but they're also bad because if the only thing you have to base those attitudes on is your experience you run into a host of issues.
That's why it makes complete sense that this question would come up, and it makes complete sense that Miss Alli's interpretation of the events would be brought into question. I know I probably would have said something, but I know better than to post in her forums. I was there during Randallgate after all.
(9*) - "My point is not that race is the only thing that drives how a person reads such a moment, but it's one of the things"
And it is definitely one of the things. It's very naive to say "this is black and this is white and there is no grey area", but to acknowledge a grey area takes up time. Is it really so hard to assume the grey area but still argue one point? Yes? Okay...
(10*) - "You don't know me; you don't know anything about my motives. My motives are not the topic; your opinion that I ignore racism because I don't adequately care about it unless it costs me personally is not the topic."
OMG SHUT UP! How very "You don't agree with me so I'm not talking to you anymore!" How childish and pedantic. First off, you don't know this Lisi chick and honestly an avid reader is going to have a better handle on who Linda is than Linda will ever have on a reality show contestant that was on for one season.
Secondly, she wasn't questioning your "motives". What does that even mean to you in this context? She never called you racist or said that you knew the song because you sang it at your monthly Klan meetings. Stop assuming stuff that didn't happen and start actually considering where the poster was coming from as she did for you.
Third, the statement that you don't care enough may be accurate since you cared enough to bring it up, but not enough to consider what you were even talking about. Linda's defensiveness is far more telling and I think she comes off a bit worse for wear.
A friend commented that maybe she just wanted to squash the convo since it had the chance of going off topic, and I get that all very good and well, but I also know you don't have to be an utter hole to do it. And you can do it in a way that's respectful and not dismissive of the poster's opinion.
Such a thing would be too much like right for our Miss Alli.
In conclusion, speak to what you know, and don't make sweeping assumptions and then try to justify those assumptions by telling your detractors that they are sensationalizing something that you yourself brought up. When brought criticism, take time to try and decipher what's really being said and know that many times it concerns you but it is very often not about you. Read the room, and speak to the issue itself and not how much it hurt your little "liberal so I'm not a racist" feelings.
Is all.
BF
So I've never hidden my disdain for Miss Alli of TWoP but I did make a concentrated effort to not be so vocal about it since I was interacting more there.
She's been pretty low-key and actually smart (as she can be) and funny (as she can be) in the Bug Reports thread where I usually rest my head, and she's even answered a few questions of mine in a civil manner. I don't watch Survivor or Big Brother and I refuse to read anything she recaps (I'm very loyal in my hatred) so really the only clues I get into her moderating madness are through Sucks.
They've been pretty quiet lately, but then Miss Alli wrote this in her recap:
" Lisi immediately goes here: "Eenie meenie miney mo, catch a liar by the toe." Oh, Lisi. I don't think for one minute that she knows just how much she shouldn't do this*, but it's the risk you take when you decide to be a bitch."
(*there's a link to the wiki about the song that I've included below)
This little blurb caused a minor fracas in the forums that Hypnotoad took to sucks and reminded us all again about why Miss Alli Sucks:
Aww. Newbie in the Survivor forum who mistakenly thinks Miss Alli wants to hear criticism about her finale recap:
"I thought Miss Alli's recap was fun and insightful, as usual -- except for on this point about Lisi. To not suspect Lisi's use of the "Eeny Meeny Miny Mo" rhyme is, I have to say, a white person's luxury. If I walked through life throwing such suspicions so easily to the wind, I'd be unarmed in the face of too much racial mind-fuckery." (1*)
Color Miss Alli unhappy. Her response:
To not suspect Lisi's use of the "Eeny Meeny Miny Mo" rhyme is, I have to say, a white person's luxury.
"You know, I don't really mind if you don't like the writing, but I don't appreciate being lectured about my motives any more than you would if you were in my position (2*). My position on Lisi's use of this phrase has to do with thinking she's an idiot, and far too concerned with what other people think to say anything that would so obviously reveal racist attitudes. It has nothing to do with doubting her, or anyone else's, capacity for racism, nor with the seriousness of racism as a societal problem. It has only to do with doubting that she would knowingly put herself in the position she put herself in here.
I am quite confident you could find plenty of black viewers who don't believe she knew anything about this version of the rhyme (3*). Please don't attempt to speak for the entire world, as you do when you suggest that only an ignorant white person could possibly fail to suspect Lisi of making that reference on purpose (4*). I don't think it's helpful for anyone to suggest to anyone else, "The only reason you say that is your race."(5*) "
Deluded newbie, post the second:
You know, I don't really mind if you don't like the writing, but I don't appreciate being lectured about my motives any more than you would if you were in my position.
"I think I made it pretty clear that I do like your writing; and I don't think I "lectured" you at all. For what it's worth, I read your recaps because of their uncommon insight into human nature and the show. I enjoy them a lot and tend to learn things from reading them. Your reading of the Dreamz incident answered a lot of things for me that I couldn't have put together myself. So thanks in general for the recaps. That said, how you saw the Lisi rhyme really surprised me, and makes me try to understand why there's such a distance between how I see it and how you do. I thought I'd weigh in on that. I had no intention of being unfair or dismissive. Just trying to figure it out (6*)."
I am quite confident you could find plenty of black viewers who don't believe she knew anything about this version of the rhyme. Please don't attempt to speak for the entire world, as you do when you suggest that only an ignorant white person could possibly fail to suspect Lisi of making that reference on purpose. I don't think it's helpful for anyone to suggest to anyone else, "The only reason you say that is your race."
"I agree that there are surely black viewers who would say she probably never heard the rhyme before. But I'd also bet that, were there a way to scientifically poll it, you'd find that a viewer's race would change the likelihood of whether or not they suspected a racial motive behind Lisi's rhyme (7*). I bet black viewers would be more likely to think there was something racial behind it, and I think the reason is because black people are taught, by experience, that racism pops up in the most unlikely places and it makes good sense to be wary. White people have less of this experience, so less of this wariness. And the cost to whites of letting go the wariness is small (8*).
My point is not that race is the only thing that drives how a person reads such a moment, but it's one of the things (9*)."
Miss Alli:
"You don't know me; you don't know anything about my motives. My motives are not the topic; your opinion that I ignore racism because I don't adequately care about it unless it costs me personally is not the topic.
The episode is the topic. Let's get on it."(10*)
Let's talk a moment shall we?
(1*) - "To not suspect Lisi's use of the "Eeny Meeny Miny Mo" rhyme is, I have to say, a white person's luxury. If I walked through life throwing such suspicions so easily to the wind, I'd be unarmed in the face of too much racial mind-fuckery"
This came out wrong, but I understood what the poster was saying.
For those of you not in the know the "Eenie Meanie Miney Mo" song used to have a version that said "Catch a nigger by his toe. If he hollers let him go." The childhood version has been very parsed with the word "Tiger" being substituted for "nigger".
Now in the show I'm told the final three are all black and Lisi is white, so while choosing her use of this popular yet controversial child's tune may have been entirely innocent, it was also a bit suspect. In the recap Miss Alli gave Lisi the benefit of the doubt by basically saying she was too self involved to know about or even consider that connotation.
Which... okay, I might give it to her, except I find that the people who get away with vaguely yet ridiculously offensive things are the ones that act the most dumb and innocent. It's very convenient is all, but whatev, that's neither here nor there. What is most important I think is the response.
The fact that Miss Alli saw fit to bring it up, but then cast it off nonchalantly is a bit dismissive of what I guess was a topic of interest in the threads? I just find it odd and I understand the poster's concern, though I don't believe the poster was as concerned with the subject matter as much as how it was handled.
(2*) - "You know, I don't really mind if you don't like the writing, but I don't appreciate being lectured about my motives any more than you would if you were in my position"
Except she said that she did like the writing, and quite a bit. She just took issue with the way you presented one of your opinions. Which if they are sound shouldn't make you as tense and edgy as you became apparently. Since evidently her entire post was about you and what a racist horrible person you are.
(3*) - "I am quite confident you could find plenty of black viewers who don't believe she knew anything about this version of the rhyme "
Dearest White People, don't do this, ever. Seriously, let's freaking nip this crap in the bud right now. A guy friend of mine did it to me once and I've had it done several times before and it's gross, it's annoying, and it's stupid.
Do not pidgeon hole my opinion and think I can understand your stupid point better if you try to relate it back to black people! The whole "Well if I tell her that other black people think the way that I do then she won't have ANY ground to stand on! Because her own people that she's working so hard to defend (because that's what's going on) don't even agree with her! She'll be defenseless and then I can destroy her!" is so... WRONG, just sick and wrong and reeks so heavily of white privilege and disrespect.
Basically, if you have a point to make, make it and base it on facts, but don't try to dumb it down for me by relating it to MY experience as a black person in America, especially in a way to try and pit my black experience against the experiences of other black people. Divide and conquer is a great technique, but it's also nasty and morally suspect.
(4*) - "Please don't attempt to speak for the entire world, as you do when you suggest that only an ignorant white person could possibly fail to suspect Lisi of making that reference on purpose"
Please try to read the post as one having social commentary and not the mission statement of the I Hate Linda Holmes club. I believe that as much as Miss Alli goes on about her own motives she certainly presumed to know a lot about Lisi's. And if MA went to the lengths of exposing the could be racism of this girl, and then debunking it, wouldn't it be reasonable for her posters to call foul?
I think the poster was actually giving Miss Alli a big benefit of the doubt, basically saying "if you don't see it as racist, I can understand why, because you're not prone to see it as racist naturally." I think though, as much as Miss Alli claims to know about everything the poster was holding Miss Alli accountable for such a near sighted statement and Miss Alli read that as an attack. I think to Miss Alli and some other whitefolk I've ran into "White Privilege" = "Racist" which is completely untrue. There's a difference between ignorance and willfull ignorance.
I still don't understand if this was a response to something said in the forums or via email, or if it was just MA trying to show how enlightened she was by knowing things, but basically if you don't want to talk about the subject, don't bring it up, or if you do explain it in a way that is concise and not a throw-a-way.
If you don't want people assuming your "motives", then don't assume you can say something like that and get away with it.
(5*) - "I don't think it's helpful for anyone to suggest to anyone else, "The only reason you say that is your race.""
It's not helpful when you're not willing to have dialogue about it or treat your posters like people of varying opinions. It's not helpful then, even when it's true, and in this case it was.
(6*) - "That said, how you saw the Lisi rhyme really surprised me, and makes me try to understand why there's such a distance between how I see it and how you do. I thought I'd weigh in on that. I had no intention of being unfair or dismissive. Just trying to figure it out "
LOTS of pandering here and I get it, I just like it because it was very well done and set up the next part of what she was saying. I think it really demonstrates that the poster is looking to learn, realized they got a bit emotional but is willing to listen, and really respects MA's opinion that she questioned when MA said something out of line.
Really, those are the people to have on your side. Having supporters is great, but some people fall into the trap of having people who diss them around to "keep them real" or whatever. That's not going to cause you to grow it's going to cause you to hate the world and lie to yourself that you're growing. The best people to surround yourself with are those who genuinely appreciate you so much that when you have a disagreement it bothers them. When they say something that toes that line and you have to know what they really meant and take them to task about it.
Those people are worth the trouble of reevaluating and either dismissing or standing by your original statement, not some haters who just talk trash to talk it.
But I digress. Point? Stop treating your fans like crap and if you are a fan don't take getting treated like crap. It's not worth it to you or to them.
(7*) - " you'd find that a viewer's race would change the likelihood of whether or not they suspected a racial motive behind Lisi's rhyme"
And that's the point. That black people are TRAINED to see these things, and white people have the choice. It just seems odd to me to make that choice openly as Miss Alli did, and then dismiss it.
(8*) - "I think the reason is because black people are taught, by experience, that racism pops up in the most unlikely places and it makes good sense to be wary. White people have less of this experience, so less of this wariness. And the cost to whites of letting go the wariness is small"
And on a purely social level it is. White people have the choice to let go or not acknowledge these little happenstances because ultimately they don't effect them the same way they do a person of color. On a personal level though, you should make sure you surround yourself with people who respect your opinions and values. Internet relationships are great because they allow you to see what's going on in various parts of the world and how certain attitudes are shaped, but they're also bad because if the only thing you have to base those attitudes on is your experience you run into a host of issues.
That's why it makes complete sense that this question would come up, and it makes complete sense that Miss Alli's interpretation of the events would be brought into question. I know I probably would have said something, but I know better than to post in her forums. I was there during Randallgate after all.
(9*) - "My point is not that race is the only thing that drives how a person reads such a moment, but it's one of the things"
And it is definitely one of the things. It's very naive to say "this is black and this is white and there is no grey area", but to acknowledge a grey area takes up time. Is it really so hard to assume the grey area but still argue one point? Yes? Okay...
(10*) - "You don't know me; you don't know anything about my motives. My motives are not the topic; your opinion that I ignore racism because I don't adequately care about it unless it costs me personally is not the topic."
OMG SHUT UP! How very "You don't agree with me so I'm not talking to you anymore!" How childish and pedantic. First off, you don't know this Lisi chick and honestly an avid reader is going to have a better handle on who Linda is than Linda will ever have on a reality show contestant that was on for one season.
Secondly, she wasn't questioning your "motives". What does that even mean to you in this context? She never called you racist or said that you knew the song because you sang it at your monthly Klan meetings. Stop assuming stuff that didn't happen and start actually considering where the poster was coming from as she did for you.
Third, the statement that you don't care enough may be accurate since you cared enough to bring it up, but not enough to consider what you were even talking about. Linda's defensiveness is far more telling and I think she comes off a bit worse for wear.
A friend commented that maybe she just wanted to squash the convo since it had the chance of going off topic, and I get that all very good and well, but I also know you don't have to be an utter hole to do it. And you can do it in a way that's respectful and not dismissive of the poster's opinion.
Such a thing would be too much like right for our Miss Alli.
In conclusion, speak to what you know, and don't make sweeping assumptions and then try to justify those assumptions by telling your detractors that they are sensationalizing something that you yourself brought up. When brought criticism, take time to try and decipher what's really being said and know that many times it concerns you but it is very often not about you. Read the room, and speak to the issue itself and not how much it hurt your little "liberal so I'm not a racist" feelings.
Is all.
BF