If he was doing this for sales, it was a dismal failure, as Cerebus struggled to maintain a circulation of 6,000 in the last several years of its publication. Sim acknowledges that #186 made him persona non grata in the comics community -- he seems to enjoy the distinction. He's deadly serious about the ideas he puts forward in his essays.
I thought he spent most of the Moore dialogue back-pedaling. In one of my letters I accuse him of using #289/290 to 'answer' Moore. I think his theology (as outlined through Cerebus' Torah commentaries in the 'Latter Days' book, which Dave says dovetails with his own beliefs) took many of the turns it did partly as a method of countering many of the ideas Moore posited in the dialogue. In the Portrait of an Extraordinary Gentleman tribute book, which reprinted that whole piece, Dave contributed an introduction in which he suggests that Moore is possessed by a demon, and takes a number of cheap shots at him (as he also does in much of his newer writing when things turn towards 'Moore-like' territory).
If he was doing this for sales, it was a dismal failure, as Cerebus struggled to maintain a circulation of 6,000 in the last several years of its publication.
I would posit that the only way the last several years of Cerebus managed a circulation anywhere near 6,000 was through controversy. Sim sacrificed any cogent plot well before the series wound up, and honestly there aren't that many afficionadoes of the sequential art form dedicated enough to the advancement of the art form to plod through the last 5 or so years purely on the strength of penmanship and layout. if you're pointing out that, had Sim wanted sales above all else, he could have certainly done better, I agree-- but taking for granted that Sim wanted to write a long and circuitous treatise on his own obsessive religious beliefs, I think he got some incredible sales numbers through the magic of pissing people off.
I mean, I sure as hell couldn't convince 6,000 people to subscribe to my religious tracts at $2.95 a month.
I also think he used his own sales figures to validate his conspiracy beliefs in a deeply ugly way. "oh, people aren't buying my book anymore, because they're feminized faggots who can't handle the harsh light of my male brilliance!" sure, Dave. it has nothing to do with the fact that you've stopped telling stories.
that being said, and with the caveat that I enjoyed Cerebus up through the very last issue...
the cheap shots Sim takes at Gaiman in the "Portrait" book are worth the price of admission alone. because I love Neil Gaiman but he desperately needs people to take him less seriously in public. and Sim's shots are perfect.
and, yeah. I can see how you could read Sim's appearance in the Moore dialogue as backpedaling. I think of it more as an attempt to engage with Moore-- Moore seems like someone who enjoys fervent argumentation but doesn't readily tolerate non sequiturs, which I think cramps Sim's style. still, I feel like that conversation includes some of the best quotes on religion Moore's ever put out for public consumption, as well as some of the most acceptable comments Sim's ever made on the same topic.
maybe that's it; Dave Sim needs to spend more time in public conversation with people who don't put up with his shit, or with whom he's suitably cowed not to try pulling anything in the first place. when he's writing in his own book, he goes crazy; but when he's actually constrained by social factors, one begins to suspect that he actually has something to say.
and Tangent was the last thing I read before I stopped paying to read Dave Sim's work. there may or may not be a causal relationship there; I can neither confirm nor deny speculation on those grounds. it's a pretty worthless piece of writing by almost any standards, though. I suggest you play my Tangent drinking game, and take a shot every time you hit a clearly-defined logical fallacy, and two shots if the fallacy occurs in a sentence in which Sim mocks women for being illogical.
There are a lot of Cerebus readers who held out with the book mainly because they wanted to make it to #300, just so they could tell themselves they did. Probably a majority of readers fell of Sim's turnip truck with #186, but it must be conceded that there are a few (I've met some) who actually agree with a lot of what he says (as unpallatable as that might seem).
Most of those vocal about the controversy surrounding Sim never seemed to have read the book regularly anyway -- or at least, stopped long before #186 made him the object of scorn in the industry. However, I think you may underestimate a field where the predominant attitude towards purchases seems to (still) hinge on cartooning skill and artwork above storylines. It's likely most of Sim's most inflamatory writing never got read by many Cerebus loyalists. I know that even many longtime, hardcore readers didn't bother with much of the teensy-tiny type in 'Latter Days'.
I agree with you for the most part, except that I really don't think many people will buy a book if "cartooning skill" (I'm quoting it just because it's such an abstract idea) is its only redeeming factor. I do believe that the savvy of the experienced comics reader is such that it's an important point, but I can't think of any comics other than Cerebus which managed sustained sales without a marketable premise/plot/content/joke. I agree with you if we're saying just that cartooning skill is important to most readers, but I'm not sure I can empathize if you're saying that cartooning skill is enough to compensate for a lack of story in today's market.
which, I think, is what we have to talk about when we talk about the final third (almost) of Cerebus.
the Cerebus Yahoo! group: damn, that's a lot of messages for such an small group of active members! I wouldn't know where to start.
It's a pretty high-traffic list. I get the e-mails in digest format (25 each); usually 3-4 per day. I don't always keep up with them.
However, it's the one online outlet where Dave and Gerhard actually participate (to an extent). Every month the list votes on a set of questions that are sent to Dave, and he then answers (usually at great length). Gerhard actually posts on his own, from time to time.
Here are some links to archived messages Dave has sent:
I do read over a lot of the digests, but the group spends so much time talking about television shows and arguing with the resident creationist/anti-abortion/self-congratulatory trolls that it is usually pushed way down on my priority list.
Each year the group meets with Dave at the S.P.A.C.E. convention in Columbus, Ohio. I exhibited my books there last year, and was scheduled to appear there this year, but have had to cancel.
hey, I just wanted to say I quite enjoyed reading Apophenia, particularly the second issue. I also read your SPACE trip report so I know you don't handle people saying that they enjoy your comics all that well, so I'll leave it at that, except to say that it's inspired me to pick up some of the open-ended collage-diary project I haven't touched in the last five years and see if I still enjoy working with it.
much like with Tangent, I am struck with a tremendous impulse to actually respond, but then I look at how long it is, and realize that if I were to call Sim on all the shit he pulls in that... diary entry? novella? "essay"?... I'd be at it all night. he has hypergraphia on his side, and I've got ADD on mine, and I think it's clear who'll be the last one standing.
I thought he spent most of the Moore dialogue back-pedaling. In one of my letters I accuse him of using #289/290 to 'answer' Moore. I think his theology (as outlined through Cerebus' Torah commentaries in the 'Latter Days' book, which Dave says dovetails with his own beliefs) took many of the turns it did partly as a method of countering many of the ideas Moore posited in the dialogue. In the Portrait of an Extraordinary Gentleman tribute book, which reprinted that whole piece, Dave contributed an introduction in which he suggests that Moore is possessed by a demon, and takes a number of cheap shots at him (as he also does in much of his newer writing when things turn towards 'Moore-like' territory).
Have you read Tangent?
Reply
I would posit that the only way the last several years of Cerebus managed a circulation anywhere near 6,000 was through controversy. Sim sacrificed any cogent plot well before the series wound up, and honestly there aren't that many afficionadoes of the sequential art form dedicated enough to the advancement of the art form to plod through the last 5 or so years purely on the strength of penmanship and layout. if you're pointing out that, had Sim wanted sales above all else, he could have certainly done better, I agree-- but taking for granted that Sim wanted to write a long and circuitous treatise on his own obsessive religious beliefs, I think he got some incredible sales numbers through the magic of pissing people off.
I mean, I sure as hell couldn't convince 6,000 people to subscribe to my religious tracts at $2.95 a month.
I also think he used his own sales figures to validate his conspiracy beliefs in a deeply ugly way. "oh, people aren't buying my book anymore, because they're feminized faggots who can't handle the harsh light of my male brilliance!" sure, Dave. it has nothing to do with the fact that you've stopped telling stories.
that being said, and with the caveat that I enjoyed Cerebus up through the very last issue...
the cheap shots Sim takes at Gaiman in the "Portrait" book are worth the price of admission alone. because I love Neil Gaiman but he desperately needs people to take him less seriously in public. and Sim's shots are perfect.
and, yeah. I can see how you could read Sim's appearance in the Moore dialogue as backpedaling. I think of it more as an attempt to engage with Moore-- Moore seems like someone who enjoys fervent argumentation but doesn't readily tolerate non sequiturs, which I think cramps Sim's style. still, I feel like that conversation includes some of the best quotes on religion Moore's ever put out for public consumption, as well as some of the most acceptable comments Sim's ever made on the same topic.
maybe that's it; Dave Sim needs to spend more time in public conversation with people who don't put up with his shit, or with whom he's suitably cowed not to try pulling anything in the first place. when he's writing in his own book, he goes crazy; but when he's actually constrained by social factors, one begins to suspect that he actually has something to say.
and Tangent was the last thing I read before I stopped paying to read Dave Sim's work. there may or may not be a causal relationship there; I can neither confirm nor deny speculation on those grounds. it's a pretty worthless piece of writing by almost any standards, though. I suggest you play my Tangent drinking game, and take a shot every time you hit a clearly-defined logical fallacy, and two shots if the fallacy occurs in a sentence in which Sim mocks women for being illogical.
Reply
There are a lot of Cerebus readers who held out with the book mainly because they wanted to make it to #300, just so they could tell themselves they did. Probably a majority of readers fell of Sim's turnip truck with #186, but it must be conceded that there are a few (I've met some) who actually agree with a lot of what he says (as unpallatable as that might seem).
Most of those vocal about the controversy surrounding Sim never seemed to have read the book regularly anyway -- or at least, stopped long before #186 made him the object of scorn in the industry. However, I think you may underestimate a field where the predominant attitude towards purchases seems to (still) hinge on cartooning skill and artwork above storylines. It's likely most of Sim's most inflamatory writing never got read by many Cerebus loyalists. I know that even many longtime, hardcore readers didn't bother with much of the teensy-tiny type in 'Latter Days'.
Have you ever visited the Cerebus Yahoo group?
Reply
which, I think, is what we have to talk about when we talk about the final third (almost) of Cerebus.
the Cerebus Yahoo! group: damn, that's a lot of messages for such an small group of active members! I wouldn't know where to start.
Reply
However, it's the one online outlet where Dave and Gerhard actually participate (to an extent). Every month the list votes on a set of questions that are sent to Dave, and he then answers (usually at great length). Gerhard actually posts on his own, from time to time.
Here are some links to archived messages Dave has sent:
http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/archivereport.html
http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/archivereport2.html
http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/archivereport3.html
Answers to some of the monthly lists of questions:
http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/0604talk.html
http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/0704talk.html
http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/0804talk.html
http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/0904talk.html
http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/1204talk.html
http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/0105talk.html
I do read over a lot of the digests, but the group spends so much time talking about television shows and arguing with the resident creationist/anti-abortion/self-congratulatory trolls that it is usually pushed way down on my priority list.
Each year the group meets with Dave at the S.P.A.C.E. convention in Columbus, Ohio. I exhibited my books there last year, and was scheduled to appear there this year, but have had to cancel.
Here is my report from last year.
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment