Knight Rider recs, part one.
MUAhahahaha! Knight Rider slash! Told you I wasn't kidding. (Warning: Recs contain excerpts and some plot details.)
( Oh, Michael, do I look just dreadful? )
( Oh, Michael, do I look just dreadful? )
Doc is all that concerned with his social standing?
He seems pretty absorbed by his work and maybe almost
like a savant or autistic or something. And as
closely entwined as his life is with Marty's it's hard
to tell how much he really thinks about him or really
relates to him personally. Like, does he care that
Marty probably gets crappy grades in school and is
always late and is probably going to end up working at
McDonalds? Does he care that it might be inconvenient
or dangerous (okay Hill Valley is probably not that
dangerous) for a kid to be out at all hours of the
night with him. Marty's parents may not care because
they're losers, but I know I would have gotten in big
trouble if I'd been caught sneaking out at midnight.
He doesn't seem to care very much about Jennifer
certainly. In 1955 he seemed to have no job and no
friends and really didn't seem to care. He tells Marty that he really made a difference in his life, but that's only because now he knows one of his inventions will work. I guess what
I'm saying is that it seems to me that he could have
been more socially acceptable if he was at all
interested. He just seems beyond caring. I don't
know how possible that would be in a real person
unless they had some sort of psychological problem,
but who knows. Marty seems to really care about him
though. I don't know (because the movie never says)
how Doc came to be the way he is, but maybe once he
got on that path he couldn't figure out how to get
off. Leaving Hill Valley probably would have helped.
I think he could easily have found a modern version of
Clara somewhere other than Hill Valley. Maybe he was
afraid to try. Either way he doesn't seem to miss
Marty much by the end. Hm, that whole paragraph was
kind of a downer. I'm always so negative when
discussing my fandoms. I really do like them :)
Oh, and just curious, why do you say that Doc's
relationship with Marty certainly must only intensify
his status as a pariah in 1985? Do you think people
think he's a pedophile or just too much of a whackjob
to relate to adults? What I don't understand is how
Marty isn't a complete outcast for hanging with the
Doc. Do you think he keeps that relationship
completely on the down low? I mean, Jennifer and
Stickland obviously knows about it, but do his
friends/band? Does his family? It seems they almost
have to given that the school principle does. I would
think he'd get some serious flak over that from his
peers.
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Sure, if you could e-mail me that short Dividing Line WIP at squonkfan at livejournal, that'd be great.
I'd like to see a story where Kitt gets really resentful about being taken for granted by this dumbass that he's programmed to aid and protect at all costs, and then starts playing all kinds of mind games with Michael so that he's alienated from all other people and just has Kitt and is obsessed with Kitt.
I feel like Beth C.'s Through the Years has a teeny bit of this element of resentment on Kitt's part, although of course it ultimately turns fluffy. It would be cool to see a darker story like that.
Ha, you're very hard on poor Doc! I think he does care for Marty. I like a lot of what usedusernames has to say on their relationship in Part I in her BTTF Shipper's Manifesto. I also see a tremendous amount of affection in Doc's voice and expression when he drops Marty off toward the end of Part I, before he goes to the future. (Though I guess if you want to be cynical, you could argue that was a ephemeral, "OMG you saved my life" type thing.) Parts II and III, well, I don't like Doc very much in those movies in general, vis a vis his relationship with Marty or anything else. He turns into a serious hypocrite, Mr. Moral McMoralson who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk his own self when it comes to disrupting the continuum. Shut up, Doc.
I think Doc's relationship with Marty would have to be looked upon with suspicion, and I have a lot of unfinished writing that deals with that subject--whispers about pedophilia, even some questioning by Social Services. And Marty, in turn, has to catch hell about it in school. It is very weird that Marty seems to be such a cool cuke nonetheless. Maybe that's what happens when you're in a band or something?
It's been a while since I've read lithreal's fic. It's okay, not great. I am a little bit picky about what I read, yeah. Although you can't afford to be TOO picky when the fandom is tiny.
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Speaking of smarm - have you read any of those BttF stories - can't recall the author - where Marty is crying ALL THE TIME? Yowza - what's with that!?
So anyway, did you find the discussions on Michael and his ladies? I really think there's no solution to this debate. In my observations of guys in real life none really act like Michael. The ones who sleep around and always have a different girlfriend always seem to radiate a sleaziness that Michael doesn't have. And the nice guys, which Michael seems to be, don't sleep around a lot. I think the character was just made for TV in a certain way to work with the times and the format of the show. If you want to turn Michael into a real person for the purposes of a fanfic, you need to make some changes here and there.
Did you find any of our discussions on AI and gender? I'm still very fascinated by that.
BttF: See I knew I would come off sounding harsh. And I don't mean to - I mean I really like these characters! I think I just like playing the devil's advocate. Because when you watch them they do seem really affectionate and happy to be around each other. I of course read her shippers manifesto like 50 times or something ages ago. One thing I have to point out about all the touching and stuff. The Doc in 1955 is always grabbing Marty - even before he realizes that they're apparently good friends in the future - so maybe he just doesn't realize that that sort of behavior is bizarre and inappropriate. Or maybe it just looked good for the movie because he's supposed to be a mad scientist. Anyway if you're young like I guess Marty was when they met, maybe you could mistake the touching for actual affection and start to feel affection in return. The Doc in 1955 seemed kind of uncomfortable hugging Marty. I don't get that he would have been in 1985 though.
As for social services, I don't know. A lot of fan fiction has Doc being hated and harassed by pretty much all of Hill Valley, but it's not clear if this is really the case. Strickland clearly doesn't like him, but he doesn't seem to like anyone. The cop in 1955 pesters him a little, but it's only because he wants some money. He certainly could have bothered him a lot more. Lorraine seems a little weirded out by him, but that's probably because she's nervous asking Marty out and the Doc is hanging around eavesdropping and giving her weird looks. It's not clear if his scientist business is a real business or just a front. If it's real then he must have some customers. I guess if he had some nosey neighbors who didn't like him they could have called social services. He doesn't seem to have neighbors though, being in a pretty commercial area. I can't imagine Marty's parents doing it. Do they even know he hangs out with Doc? I guess it depends on how big Hill Valley is and if everyone is up in each others' business. Were people really that suspicious back then? It didn't seem like it. I guess there was one guy in the neighborhood we all kept our eyes on, but we were pretty sure he was a drug dealer. I guess we would have called the cops on him. Hard to say. But you know, that's just my take on the whole thing.
I think it's funny that if you watch the movie, everyone in Marty's band looks like they're 35. I guess lots of older people like hanging with Marty. Just kidding - I'm sure they were just too lazy to get real teenagers and just used the studio musicians. Anyway, yes, his life is very hard to understand. I wonder to what extent his friends know about Doc. To what extent does Jennifer know Doc? Or does she just hear about him from Marty?
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Oh, wow, this snippet totally did make me wish that there had been more. Thanks for sending it! (It landed in my spam box initially, so it took me a while to find it and fish it out.) I would have loved to see the consequences of Karr's little plan. I assumed the memory he would be revealing was of Kitt/Michael; OTOH, I'm not sure how this would corrupt Kitt in Paul's eyes--didn't Kitt say Paul had attempted the same thing at one point? Or does Karr not know that? Or did I misinterpret the thing completely?
I think there are some pretty good ideas out there in KR ficland, but unfortunately, what there aren't is a lot of good writers. Which is too bad. The Beth C. story I was talking about is indeed the one where Michael sings to him--LOL, yeah, it was rough. I think I actually went, "ACK!" aloud when I hit that part. At least it has Kitt sticking up for himself and not acting like a willing sacrificial lamb for Michael's antics. It would be nice to see more of that. Michael needs a kick in his hot, tight ass. Generally, though, I'm still a huge sucker for hurt/comfort...that is, for well done hurt/comfort. I'm not sure if the term "smarm" inherently connotes sucky writing. I mean, to an extent I actually look for smarm or at least h/c in my stories, that's what I want and that's what I write, too. But h/c that is completely unwarranted for the character/situation and/or is just plain goofy can be seriously painful and even embarrassing to read. Is that what you mean when you use the term smarm? I think it may have had a bit broader of a meaning back in the fannish day.
I've been reading gumnut's gen stuff. I like some of it--I think A Dose of Sun and Surf is actually very, very good, disciplined and suspenseful and evocative. But some of the work she classifies as finished feels sloppy to me. (I also wish she wouldn't stick silly A/N at the end of her stories--gah, that makes me crazy. I absolutely cannot approach a piece seriously, or commit myself to the universe/mood you've created, if you're going to be all, "Hope you liked it, wrote it at work, LOL!" after the last sentence. Those things go at the beginning for a reason.)
Speaking of smarm - have you read any of those BttF stories - can't recall the author - where Marty is crying ALL THE TIME? Yowza - what's with that!?
*laugh* That was on fanfiction.net, right? Yeah. Speaking of embarrassing. But I totally got where that author was coming from, psychologically. I mean, she was clearly like fifteen or something and I actually admired her for basically being all, "These fics are going to be about Marty crying a lot. So there you are." I remember having fannish fantasies like that when I was a kid, and as an h/c fan I still do in a different kind of way. She just decided to let it all hang out there, and I bet it was super therapeutic and felt really soothing and wonderful to do. Good for her. Not that it lessens that horribleness of the text or the need to bleach my brain afterward.
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I guess what I mean by smarm is overly sentimental stuff. People singing and crying when it's out of character and not really called for in the situation. Gen writers who don't believe in slash but still have the characters hugging and crying all over each other. It just doesn't seem that realistic to me. And maybe that's just something about my personality. I've never felt the urge to be that sentimental with someone who's just a friend - even a good friend. Or sometimes fics set up this really improbable and totally unrealistic scenarios just to get the characters all worked up and crying. I don't mind well done h/c. Though I think I like angst more. Maybe they're the same thing. I guess by angst I mean the characters having to overcome a lot of social or psychological or logistic barriers to get together. Like two generally heterosexual characters who slowly come to the realization that they're more than friends. That's why I love reading first time stories. And I think sometimes h/c scenarios can bring about that realization for the characters. I thought Beyond Loyalty (of Fire and Ice) was a little overboard. It was okay the first time I read it, but it was a little much the second. There is a BttF story about Marty getting kidnapped and tortured by Doc's evil twin. I just couldn't get into that.
I like some of Gumnut's stuff too. That story sounds familiar, but I don't seem to have it saved, so I don't remember it exactly. I didn't necessarily find her stuff unfinished sounding. I thought Sara's stuff had more of an unfinished quality, but I could never put my finger on exactly why I thought that or what would make it better. It just felt like it needed to be fleshed out. Have you read Animism? It's not really a story - more a reflection, but you would probably like it. I don't think the author ever wrote anything else though.
Yeah, I give anyone props for having the guts to put their writing on the net. Doesn't mean I'm going to be able to read it though. That author definitely falls into the smarm category for me.
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I think Doc's being physically demonstrative is at least partly meant to be indicative of the general exuberance of his character. It had never really struck me as odd in the past, but that's probably just because he and Marty seemed so happy and symbiotic in that way. You're right, the 1955 Doc does that, too, which is interesting. You could argue that he feels "cosmically" connected with Marty. But then, '55 Doc is just as exuberant as '85 Doc in his mannerisms, even though personality-wise, he strikes me as far more jaded than his older counterpart. Again, you could definitely argue that the hands-on stuff is just part of Doc's personality, but that a hug is a step up from that in intimacy. I would buy that someone who relfexively casually touches people could stil be taken aback by an embrace, especially one which is pretty desperate and intense. I do think Marty would definitely bask in and react to the physical attention he received from Doc, regardless of whether it was truly personal or just something Doc does. But as far as it would be viewed by the public, Doc's damned either way: It would be seen as bizarre and inappropriate both as a general personality trait and as a dynamic specific to his relationship with a seventeen-year-old boy.
Did you ever read the novelization of the first BTTF? It's pretty bad and not in the spirit of the movie at all, but it was obviously based on an earlier draft of the screenplay. There is a lot of crap in there about Doc's getting pranks pulled on him and shit (but Doc is a far less likeable character in the novelization, so you're kind of on the side of the pranksters!). I don't consider that canon, but I did have it in mind when I wrote Do Something, and I think other fans do extrapolate from both it and Strickland's canonical comment a general sense of Doc's reputation in Hill Valley.
I don't know to what extent Jennifer knows Doc exactly, but in speaking to him directly at the end of Part III, she calls him "Dr. Brown." I think she does call him "Doc" when speaking to him in Part II, but IIRC that was when she was looking for a way to escape the McFlys' future house and it seemed more like a panicky, thoughtless exclamation. So I would bet there's a fair amount of distance there.
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I never read the BttF novel. I know I could probably get it used cheap on Amazon, but I like the idea of running across it in a second hand store. Also, even though I thoroughly expect that it's dreadful, I'm sure I'll still manage to be very disappointed by it. Are there any good bits at all in it? Why is Doc less likable? Either way, I can see him getting pranked by kids no matter what the adults think of him. Which makes me think that maybe Marty keeps their friendship a secret. I agree with you about Jennifer - she seems familiar with him, but doesn't seem like she spends a lot of time around him.
I wonder how much of Hill Valley really knows about Doc's and Marty's friendship. Do they go out in public together? Doc probably doesn't talk about it to anyone because he probably doesn't talk to anyone, but does Marty? Does he tell his family? Does Doc call the house much looking for him? Jennifer knows, but do his other friends? Strickland knows, but is that because everyone knows, or because Marty inadvertently said something to him about it, maybe when Strickland had Marty in his office disciplining him for something. If it's a secret and no one really knows of its existence or at least extent, then it wouldn't be a problem for either of their reputations.
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