Knight Rider recs, part one.

[squonkfan]

MUAhahahaha! Knight Rider slash! Told you I wasn't kidding. (Warning: Recs contain excerpts and some plot details.)

Comments

[illeryana]

I actually have one friend who thinks (or maybe he was just humoring me - either way we had a lengthy conversation about this) that Doc was totally a sexual predator when it came to Marty - taking advantage of the fact Marty would probably be attracted to an authority figure in his life, making him presents, having a garage full of stuff that would be of interest to Marty, etc. I don't know if I actually buy that, but it would be interesting to explore in a fic. I sometimes like fics that explore a different take on the relationship just to see how it'd play out. I don't know that I'd want to see a whole long arc or series, but one is interesting.

In any fandom actually, I don't mind if a fic is completely out of character as long as it's well written and there's some rationale for it. For instance, the F&I/CMAU covers a long period of time (20-30 years maybe?), and people change, so who knows. When I'm really into a fandom I'll pretty much read anything that's reasonably well written and just try to appreciate it for what it is. My main complaint with F&I was that some of the stories seemed a little too action oriented. I mean, I know they're not slash, and I wasn't expecting that, but some of them had almost nothing about the Kitt/Michael relationship - no dialog other than completely plot/adventure related stuff. So I found some of them a little dull. In the CMAU, I didn't mind too much that I though the characters were out of character. I did notice that when I was reading Kitt's lines, I just could not hear them in William Daniel's voice, and that was kind of irksome. What I mainly disliked was that I found myself really starting to dislike Michael and Kitt. Michael in the show is not really my type, but he seems nice enough (though maybe kind of a player which I don't like - Sara and I have discussed this at length). Michael in CMAU just seemed like kind of a jerk to me. He cheats on Kitt in one story, and maybe that's a big part of it. I don't know. But I didn't like Kitt much either. I'm still not entirely sure why. If this wasn't a fan fic I don't know if I'd be reading it because I just didn't like those characters enough. I'd probably skip their parts and read Nick and Karr.

I don't remember the Goliath stuff. But a lot of KR canon doesn't make any sense. There's not a lot of internal consistency, so I'm not bothered at all by playing fast and loose with that canon.

I found Dividing Line really depressing. Maybe because I felt they never really finished getting back on good terms. But it's incomplete really, so maybe it was meant to turn out better. I can't remember the exact dialog, but I remember that Michael says something at the end of their little sex thing that put me off. He sounded really selfish - like Kitt was just there to help Michael explore his sexual kinks. A funny thing about that story is that Michael was engaged to a girl named Georgie, and I thought, why is Michael always involved with girls with boys' names?

[squonkfan]

Doc/Marty: The relationship as it stands already clearly fills a very strong need in both of them, and while it's hard to imagine Doc exactly plotting for it to become sexual, I can absolutely see it morphing into that. It makes more sense than not that the attachment of a male teenager with severely dysfunctional family dynamics, self-confidence issues, and thoroughly weak male role models to an older, high-energy, affectionate male would get…very complicated, regardless of whether either of them intended it that way. Then you get to decide what you think about such a relationship, what constitutes consent, legal versus moral stances, emotional effects, etc. Some people would argue that because of the age difference, the relationship's becoming sexual would automatically make Doc a predator, regardless of intention or initiation. As a generalization I disagree with that, even though age does matter.

But I find the whole subject terribly fascinating; I actually did some cursory research on pedophilia when I was working on my fic, part of which does characterize Doc as somewhat predator-like. The story is two parts, the second of which is necessarily AU: the first sets up an "accidental" sexual encounter of the Man Without A Face variety (you absolutely must read that book, if you haven't) where some physical and emotional abuse at home on Marty's 15th birthday (natch) brings him to Doc, and you know, a little positive attention and physical contact will do it. This is all Marty being young and traumatized and hormonal, or almost all; I'm trying to take pains to point out that Doc isn't being as careful as he could be, but that's harder to do from Marty's POV. The second part posits that Marty convinces Doc to leave Clara in 1885, and her showing up on the train never happens. They both return to 1985 and Doc does not react well, and it leads to an encounter between him and Marty which is much darker and less innocent. I'm trying to write that part in Doc's POV, but am entirely unsure that I have the skill to pull it off. It's a bit ambitious to be my first fanfic in a few years.

I did notice that when I was reading Kitt's lines, I just could not hear them in William Daniel's voice, and that was kind of irksome.

ITA with this, and in fact had originally put that exact comment in my last reply to you (just sort of ended up saying it differently). Again, I can hear him a little bit more in some of the non-neurolink dialogue, but far from all--and I would've liked to be able to hear him at least a little bit even in his "inner" voice, too.

Do you find that Michael is a player only in terms of women, or that he's a little slick and uncommitted in general? When it comes to male leads going through women like gummi bears (uh…I dunno, it's early), it's just such a pandemic that I barely even acknowledge it anymore. Even Starsky and Hutch, who are canonically so angsty with each other you can't believe you're not watching live fanfic, have Bimbos of the Week, and it's like--whatever, producers. They're heterosexual, we get it, relax. Kirk and his alien women, Wilson and his wives, ad infinitum--maybe it's a cop-out, but I have a hard time taking it seriously and find it easy to write away. Some authors have used it to great effect, though, in character studies.

There's not a lot of internal consistency, so I'm not bothered at all by playing fast and loose with that canon.

Well, there's twisting canon, and then there's rewriting dialogue entirely. *g* Which I didn't mean to imply I was bothered by, but it is done in KR with special relish and abandon, likely in part for the reasons you mention.

[illeryana]

I agree with all that about the Doc/Marty thing. I think part of the reason I'm so fascinated (and a little embarrassed) by it is that back in the day when I was Marty's age I had this huge crush for this guy I worked for. He was only in his 40s, but it's still a pretty big age gap. So I totally think it's believable that Marty would be interested. And when I was that age, I possibly would have been happy for something like that to happen, but looking back I'm glad that absolutely nothing happened. But then again, my life was quite a bit better than Marty's, and something like that could have really messed me up. Marty seems pretty screwed already what with his shitty family and seemingly very little potential for improvement (which I've always wondered - are we supposed to believe at the beginning of the movie that Marty's music career could potentially go somewhere, or are we supposed to assume that it's just an adolescent delusion and he's on his way to living indefinitely with his parents and working at McDonalds). Sorry if that was TMI. But anyway, I'm very interested in all the different ways something like that could play out. It's hard to believe that realistically something like that could work out well. If I was a better writer I might write up some ideas that I have and haven't seen done before, but I think it's a little beyond my abilities. I haven't written a think in years.

I was thinking about reading Man Without a Face after I saw it mentioned in something else you wrote. I've found though that whenever I read something because it's supposedly related to a fandom that I'm currently in, I'm always disappointed that it's not close enough to the fandom and not close enough to what I want to read at the time. I'll definitely check for it next time I'm in a second hand book store.

Well, that sounds like a great story outline. I love darker psychological things. I hope you can continue.

[illeryana]

So just curious - and I understand if you don't want to give away more plot details of your story - but I'm curious by what you mean when you say Doc does not react well. Do you mean he does not react well to losing the love of his life (who he's know for a whole two days or something) and to Marty's generally being a cock block, or do you mean he does not react well to returning to 1985 Hill Valley where he's apparently a social outcast and loser and leaving behind Hill Valley of 1885 where he seemed to be quite well respected and well liked and an integral part of the community? Maybe I'm just seeing things, but Doc seemed to have changed in the 9 months he was there. He seemed very different by the end of the last movie. I really feel for Marty though. He seems almost worse off by the end of the series than he was at the beginning. It seems he still has all his memories and psychological problems from the original timeline, but now he's also going to be completely disoriented and disconnected from everyone he knows.

[squonkfan]

Uh, yeah, so like three weeks later... I apologize for cutting this conversation off so abruptly, as I do want to continue it; I just got totally eaten by school. All papers are turned in now, finally.

First, I meant to say a couple of replies ago, re: the idea of Kitt/Michael/Karr/Nick and Karr's potential freakage:

I don't know exactly how much Karr knows about what goes on with Kitt and Michael and Nick and Alex sexually. He can definitely tell when they're doing it. It seems like most of the blocking during those times is on his end. But it seems like it's because he's disinterested and doesn't want to be bothered and because he wants to respect their privacy, and not because it freaks him out.

It might not be his conscious motivation for blocking out Nick/Alex, true, but I can't imagine he wouldn't be freaked if he were for some reason unable to block them, or at least if he were unable to block Michael/Kitt, and then Nick received it in turn. I do like the part in...I think maybe Calculating Pi when Nick vehemently states he would not want to have link!sex with Karr, and Karr is all, "...Hey!" Heh.

Did you find the little WIP part 2. It's very short, but it made me really wish she'd finished the story.

For Dividing Line? I'm not sure? Which one/where is it? I did unearth a couple of really, really terrible/awesome M/K fics using the WayBack Machine--one called Test Run and another called Fields of Exploration, have you seen those? Totally, disturbingly bad and hot, I don't even know. I'm feeling a bit desperate as I think I may have read everything out there already, both slash and any of the gen I'd actually be interested in.

I don't actually know why there should be a huge disparity between the way Kitt speaks aloud and his voice in Michael's head. I mean, they've know each other for a long time now, so Kitt should just be able to speak his mind pretty comfortably either way.

Yeah, I know what you're saying. I don't know, though--if I had a link like that even with someone I was close to, and I wasn't holding anything back through it, I might be a lot more emotionally naked than I am when I speak to them. Maybe the idea is that what comes through the link is more the raw material that exists before we turn it into speech. Of course there is what looks like recognizeable language coming through the link, but maybe, at times, that's just a way of letting us in on something that in actuality is being communicated in a different, deeper form. Or not. It might just be OOC.

I've had a huge debate with SaraMerry in her LJ about Michael and his ladies. I'm not sure if the entries are public or not. I could go back and look for some of them for you. I think I pretty much said everything I have to say about the subject and other KR subjects there.

I would definitely be interested in seeing that discussion. Was it in SaraMerry's fic where there was a bit about Michael's having to flirt with ladies in order to elicit information, but that he didn't really like doing it? I remember snorting at that; it didn't ring true for me. But I do feel like it's just the way het guys are written on TV. And I also feel like Michael really isn't the brightest bulb on the tree, actually.

Re: the BTTF story, Doc doesn't react well to all of those things in combination: Clara/cock-block/returning to being an outcast. They're overlapping issues. I agree with you that Doc has changed quite a bit after Part III, and whether or not he's genuinely in love with Clara--she at least represents something very, very important to him, I think. It's kind of hard for me to expound on this, because it feels personal somehow but also not fully developed in my head--I tend to come to a fuller understanding of these things as I'm writing them. I do think Doc's relationship with Marty certainly must only intensify his status as a pariah in 1985, and that might have been okay until he experienced something more fulfilling. And the whole thing would be tied up in the earlier, "innocent" encounter between them, too, and how innocent was it really for Doc, etc. Lots of layers. To this thing I may or may not ever finish.

[illeryana]

Nick/Karr/Michael/Kitt - Yes, what you say is probably all true. Though I think it would freak Karr out if there was ANYTHING that we was unable to block if he chose too. He seems to be a very guarded and private person. I think in that interaction you mentioned that Karr was mostly joking about being hurt and offended. He did lighten up and develop a little sense of humor, but I'm sure underneath it all he may actually feel a little rejected. It would be cool to see a believable romance with Karr. I don't really see who it could be other than Kitt though, since I can't see him opening up to an outsider. I haven't thought a whole lot about this recently though.

Other M/K salsh - yeah I've read all that stuff. I found other stuff too on the archive with Kitt as a human in a virtual reality matrix, so I don't know if you'd be interested. Anyway, yeah, it was hot for one or too reads, and then it was just kind of weird and maybe gross. It always kind of bothers me seeing the car body written as if it's an organic living body with lights flashing and oil leaking and tires deflating. It's just distracting. I'm not sure where I found the WIP for Dividing Line. I have it saved so I could always email it to you. It's really short though, so don't get your hopes up too much. I know what you mean about feeling withdraw when you run out of fic. KR lasted a while for me because I was pretty much interested in reading anything - I liked the android stuff at the time. But the BttF stuff took me about a day and a half to get through.

Have you read the unfinished story by lithreal that's on the slash comm? She seemed to stop working on it about the same time I started reading it. I really like that one too. I'm curious what you think of it because you seem more picky that I am.

Michael discussions - I think most of our discussions were in the responses to her story summaries. Try the ones with lots of responses. I have them all saved, so I can be more specific if you need. I know what you mean about Michael being dumb. I mean, I guess if he were super smart and never screwed up the show would have been boring and had no suspense. But I mean, come on, he always blows his under cover ops, he never has a plan, he never does any research, and he pretty much relies entirely on his sex appeal and Kitt. Plus, he gets fooled by pretty much every bad guy lady who tries to trick him. I have to pretty much ignore all that to stay interested in the pairing.

I'd like to see a story where Kitt gets really resentful about being taken for granted by this dumbass that he's programmed to aid and protect at all costs, and then starts playing all kinds of mind games with Michael so that he's alienated from all other people and just has Kitt and is obsessed with Kitt. And then Kitt can realize he doesn't want him anyway.

part 2

[illeryana]

BttF - So do you think that at the beginning of BttF1
Doc is all that concerned with his social standing?
He seems pretty absorbed by his work and maybe almost
like a savant or autistic or something. And as
closely entwined as his life is with Marty's it's hard
to tell how much he really thinks about him or really
relates to him personally. Like, does he care that
Marty probably gets crappy grades in school and is
always late and is probably going to end up working at
McDonalds? Does he care that it might be inconvenient
or dangerous (okay Hill Valley is probably not that
dangerous) for a kid to be out at all hours of the
night with him. Marty's parents may not care because
they're losers, but I know I would have gotten in big
trouble if I'd been caught sneaking out at midnight.
He doesn't seem to care very much about Jennifer
certainly. In 1955 he seemed to have no job and no
friends and really didn't seem to care. He tells Marty that he really made a difference in his life, but that's only because now he knows one of his inventions will work. I guess what
I'm saying is that it seems to me that he could have
been more socially acceptable if he was at all
interested. He just seems beyond caring. I don't
know how possible that would be in a real person
unless they had some sort of psychological problem,
but who knows. Marty seems to really care about him
though. I don't know (because the movie never says)
how Doc came to be the way he is, but maybe once he
got on that path he couldn't figure out how to get
off. Leaving Hill Valley probably would have helped.
I think he could easily have found a modern version of
Clara somewhere other than Hill Valley. Maybe he was
afraid to try. Either way he doesn't seem to miss
Marty much by the end. Hm, that whole paragraph was
kind of a downer. I'm always so negative when
discussing my fandoms. I really do like them :)

Oh, and just curious, why do you say that Doc's
relationship with Marty certainly must only intensify
his status as a pariah in 1985? Do you think people
think he's a pedophile or just too much of a whackjob
to relate to adults? What I don't understand is how
Marty isn't a complete outcast for hanging with the
Doc. Do you think he keeps that relationship
completely on the down low? I mean, Jennifer and
Stickland obviously knows about it, but do his
friends/band? Does his family? It seems they almost
have to given that the school principle does. I would
think he'd get some serious flak over that from his
peers.

Re: part 2

[squonkfan]

I did see the story with the virtual reality environment. I skimmed it a bit, but no, not really my thing. I found the Test Run and Fields of Exploration fics to be laughable and hot at the same time. Their uniqueness turns me on enough that I can sort of overlook the horrible writing, not to mention the leaking oil--LOL. I never quite imagined anything like that scenario when I went looking for KR slash; I expected more like Auto-Erotica and Sara's series. What's funny is that I think Kitt may be more in character in TR and FoE than he is in Gryph or elfin's stories. Or at least I can certainly hear him better.

Sure, if you could e-mail me that short Dividing Line WIP at squonkfan at livejournal, that'd be great.

I'd like to see a story where Kitt gets really resentful about being taken for granted by this dumbass that he's programmed to aid and protect at all costs, and then starts playing all kinds of mind games with Michael so that he's alienated from all other people and just has Kitt and is obsessed with Kitt.

I feel like Beth C.'s Through the Years has a teeny bit of this element of resentment on Kitt's part, although of course it ultimately turns fluffy. It would be cool to see a darker story like that.

Ha, you're very hard on poor Doc! I think he does care for Marty. I like a lot of what usedusernames has to say on their relationship in Part I in her BTTF Shipper's Manifesto. I also see a tremendous amount of affection in Doc's voice and expression when he drops Marty off toward the end of Part I, before he goes to the future. (Though I guess if you want to be cynical, you could argue that was a ephemeral, "OMG you saved my life" type thing.) Parts II and III, well, I don't like Doc very much in those movies in general, vis a vis his relationship with Marty or anything else. He turns into a serious hypocrite, Mr. Moral McMoralson who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk his own self when it comes to disrupting the continuum. Shut up, Doc.

I think Doc's relationship with Marty would have to be looked upon with suspicion, and I have a lot of unfinished writing that deals with that subject--whispers about pedophilia, even some questioning by Social Services. And Marty, in turn, has to catch hell about it in school. It is very weird that Marty seems to be such a cool cuke nonetheless. Maybe that's what happens when you're in a band or something?

It's been a while since I've read lithreal's fic. It's okay, not great. I am a little bit picky about what I read, yeah. Although you can't afford to be TOO picky when the fandom is tiny.

Re: part 2

[illeryana]

I sent the story. Wish I had more to recommend to you. The same author did write a story or two in the CMAU universe with Kitt still in the car. If you haven't found it and want to read it let me know. I doubt you'd be crazy about it. Now that I'm not really into the KR thing anymore, looking back on it, there isn't a lot of really great stuff out there. Is that story you're talking about by Beth the one where Michael sings him a long song at the end? That was rough - I think my tolerance for smarm has decreased over the years.

Speaking of smarm - have you read any of those BttF stories - can't recall the author - where Marty is crying ALL THE TIME? Yowza - what's with that!?

So anyway, did you find the discussions on Michael and his ladies? I really think there's no solution to this debate. In my observations of guys in real life none really act like Michael. The ones who sleep around and always have a different girlfriend always seem to radiate a sleaziness that Michael doesn't have. And the nice guys, which Michael seems to be, don't sleep around a lot. I think the character was just made for TV in a certain way to work with the times and the format of the show. If you want to turn Michael into a real person for the purposes of a fanfic, you need to make some changes here and there.

Did you find any of our discussions on AI and gender? I'm still very fascinated by that.

BttF: See I knew I would come off sounding harsh. And I don't mean to - I mean I really like these characters! I think I just like playing the devil's advocate. Because when you watch them they do seem really affectionate and happy to be around each other. I of course read her shippers manifesto like 50 times or something ages ago. One thing I have to point out about all the touching and stuff. The Doc in 1955 is always grabbing Marty - even before he realizes that they're apparently good friends in the future - so maybe he just doesn't realize that that sort of behavior is bizarre and inappropriate. Or maybe it just looked good for the movie because he's supposed to be a mad scientist. Anyway if you're young like I guess Marty was when they met, maybe you could mistake the touching for actual affection and start to feel affection in return. The Doc in 1955 seemed kind of uncomfortable hugging Marty. I don't get that he would have been in 1985 though.

As for social services, I don't know. A lot of fan fiction has Doc being hated and harassed by pretty much all of Hill Valley, but it's not clear if this is really the case. Strickland clearly doesn't like him, but he doesn't seem to like anyone. The cop in 1955 pesters him a little, but it's only because he wants some money. He certainly could have bothered him a lot more. Lorraine seems a little weirded out by him, but that's probably because she's nervous asking Marty out and the Doc is hanging around eavesdropping and giving her weird looks. It's not clear if his scientist business is a real business or just a front. If it's real then he must have some customers. I guess if he had some nosey neighbors who didn't like him they could have called social services. He doesn't seem to have neighbors though, being in a pretty commercial area. I can't imagine Marty's parents doing it. Do they even know he hangs out with Doc? I guess it depends on how big Hill Valley is and if everyone is up in each others' business. Were people really that suspicious back then? It didn't seem like it. I guess there was one guy in the neighborhood we all kept our eyes on, but we were pretty sure he was a drug dealer. I guess we would have called the cops on him. Hard to say. But you know, that's just my take on the whole thing.

I think it's funny that if you watch the movie, everyone in Marty's band looks like they're 35. I guess lots of older people like hanging with Marty. Just kidding - I'm sure they were just too lazy to get real teenagers and just used the studio musicians. Anyway, yes, his life is very hard to understand. I wonder to what extent his friends know about Doc. To what extent does Jennifer know Doc? Or does she just hear about him from Marty?

Re: part 2

[squonkfan]

I sent the story. Wish I had more to recommend to you.

Oh, wow, this snippet totally did make me wish that there had been more. Thanks for sending it! (It landed in my spam box initially, so it took me a while to find it and fish it out.) I would have loved to see the consequences of Karr's little plan. I assumed the memory he would be revealing was of Kitt/Michael; OTOH, I'm not sure how this would corrupt Kitt in Paul's eyes--didn't Kitt say Paul had attempted the same thing at one point? Or does Karr not know that? Or did I misinterpret the thing completely?

I think there are some pretty good ideas out there in KR ficland, but unfortunately, what there aren't is a lot of good writers. Which is too bad. The Beth C. story I was talking about is indeed the one where Michael sings to him--LOL, yeah, it was rough. I think I actually went, "ACK!" aloud when I hit that part. At least it has Kitt sticking up for himself and not acting like a willing sacrificial lamb for Michael's antics. It would be nice to see more of that. Michael needs a kick in his hot, tight ass. Generally, though, I'm still a huge sucker for hurt/comfort...that is, for well done hurt/comfort. I'm not sure if the term "smarm" inherently connotes sucky writing. I mean, to an extent I actually look for smarm or at least h/c in my stories, that's what I want and that's what I write, too. But h/c that is completely unwarranted for the character/situation and/or is just plain goofy can be seriously painful and even embarrassing to read. Is that what you mean when you use the term smarm? I think it may have had a bit broader of a meaning back in the fannish day.

I've been reading gumnut's gen stuff. I like some of it--I think A Dose of Sun and Surf is actually very, very good, disciplined and suspenseful and evocative. But some of the work she classifies as finished feels sloppy to me. (I also wish she wouldn't stick silly A/N at the end of her stories--gah, that makes me crazy. I absolutely cannot approach a piece seriously, or commit myself to the universe/mood you've created, if you're going to be all, "Hope you liked it, wrote it at work, LOL!" after the last sentence. Those things go at the beginning for a reason.)

Speaking of smarm - have you read any of those BttF stories - can't recall the author - where Marty is crying ALL THE TIME? Yowza - what's with that!?

*laugh* That was on fanfiction.net, right? Yeah. Speaking of embarrassing. But I totally got where that author was coming from, psychologically. I mean, she was clearly like fifteen or something and I actually admired her for basically being all, "These fics are going to be about Marty crying a lot. So there you are." I remember having fannish fantasies like that when I was a kid, and as an h/c fan I still do in a different kind of way. She just decided to let it all hang out there, and I bet it was super therapeutic and felt really soothing and wonderful to do. Good for her. Not that it lessens that horribleness of the text or the need to bleach my brain afterward.

Re: part 2

[illeryana]

Dividing Line: I'm almost certain that is the memory that Karr is referring to. So I guess it would have backfired with Paul. I thought he was also planning to tell pretty much everyone, so that Michael would be humiliated and alienated from the Foundation too. But I guess the world will never know.

I guess what I mean by smarm is overly sentimental stuff. People singing and crying when it's out of character and not really called for in the situation. Gen writers who don't believe in slash but still have the characters hugging and crying all over each other. It just doesn't seem that realistic to me. And maybe that's just something about my personality. I've never felt the urge to be that sentimental with someone who's just a friend - even a good friend. Or sometimes fics set up this really improbable and totally unrealistic scenarios just to get the characters all worked up and crying. I don't mind well done h/c. Though I think I like angst more. Maybe they're the same thing. I guess by angst I mean the characters having to overcome a lot of social or psychological or logistic barriers to get together. Like two generally heterosexual characters who slowly come to the realization that they're more than friends. That's why I love reading first time stories. And I think sometimes h/c scenarios can bring about that realization for the characters. I thought Beyond Loyalty (of Fire and Ice) was a little overboard. It was okay the first time I read it, but it was a little much the second. There is a BttF story about Marty getting kidnapped and tortured by Doc's evil twin. I just couldn't get into that.

I like some of Gumnut's stuff too. That story sounds familiar, but I don't seem to have it saved, so I don't remember it exactly. I didn't necessarily find her stuff unfinished sounding. I thought Sara's stuff had more of an unfinished quality, but I could never put my finger on exactly why I thought that or what would make it better. It just felt like it needed to be fleshed out. Have you read Animism? It's not really a story - more a reflection, but you would probably like it. I don't think the author ever wrote anything else though.

Yeah, I give anyone props for having the guts to put their writing on the net. Doesn't mean I'm going to be able to read it though. That author definitely falls into the smarm category for me.

Cont'd

[squonkfan]

I didn't find your chats about Michael and the ladies, but I also haven't read all of Sara's ep recaps because I don't remember a lot of the canon and don't want to be spoiled for my intended re-watch. :) I tried to look for posts with a lot of replies, but the only one I found was the gender/sexuality discussion. Kitt really is very queeny, moreso in the first season IIRC--his voice gets a little crisper or snappier as the series goes on, doesn't it? He stays full of serious camp, though, and yeah, Michael doesn't really blink at it except in a more general, banter-y kind of way. Android-wse, though, I don't think Michael could deal with Kitt in an anatomically female body. To him that's not Kitt. That said, I think a clearly effeminate male android would freak him out just as much. Probably Kitt's mucho macho car form is part of what allows Michael to accept the rather incongrous prissy voice. Or, perhaps, is it that very combination that actually attracts Michael? His attraction to boringly wholesome women is so dull. I'd kind of like to see something that dealt with his attraction to Kitt less in a BFF/partner/I'm-in-love-with-your-soul type way and more in a "No, seriously, I'm into the sleek black hardware and the queer Bostonian software like whoa" type way, a more raw expression of the non-mainstream aspects of his sexuality. This is touched on in some fics, but not enough to my liking. There's that part in Dividing Line, though that could have been done better. Sara's series has some of it. I also like roadstergal's fic in which drunken!Michael is making out with the seats and talking about Kitt's voice. Wish she'd taken that further, although Kitt's bewilderment was pretty fucking funny.

I think Doc's being physically demonstrative is at least partly meant to be indicative of the general exuberance of his character. It had never really struck me as odd in the past, but that's probably just because he and Marty seemed so happy and symbiotic in that way. You're right, the 1955 Doc does that, too, which is interesting. You could argue that he feels "cosmically" connected with Marty. But then, '55 Doc is just as exuberant as '85 Doc in his mannerisms, even though personality-wise, he strikes me as far more jaded than his older counterpart. Again, you could definitely argue that the hands-on stuff is just part of Doc's personality, but that a hug is a step up from that in intimacy. I would buy that someone who relfexively casually touches people could stil be taken aback by an embrace, especially one which is pretty desperate and intense. I do think Marty would definitely bask in and react to the physical attention he received from Doc, regardless of whether it was truly personal or just something Doc does. But as far as it would be viewed by the public, Doc's damned either way: It would be seen as bizarre and inappropriate both as a general personality trait and as a dynamic specific to his relationship with a seventeen-year-old boy.

Did you ever read the novelization of the first BTTF? It's pretty bad and not in the spirit of the movie at all, but it was obviously based on an earlier draft of the screenplay. There is a lot of crap in there about Doc's getting pranks pulled on him and shit (but Doc is a far less likeable character in the novelization, so you're kind of on the side of the pranksters!). I don't consider that canon, but I did have it in mind when I wrote Do Something, and I think other fans do extrapolate from both it and Strickland's canonical comment a general sense of Doc's reputation in Hill Valley.

I don't know to what extent Jennifer knows Doc exactly, but in speaking to him directly at the end of Part III, she calls him "Dr. Brown." I think she does call him "Doc" when speaking to him in Part II, but IIRC that was when she was looking for a way to escape the McFlys' future house and it seemed more like a panicky, thoughtless exclamation. So I would bet there's a fair amount of distance there.

Re: Cont'd

[illeryana]

If you want, I can email you the entries I'm talking about, but they are all episode recaps, so you might just want to wait. I haven't watched any of the episodes in several years, so if you get around to the rewatch and want to discuss any let me know. I could always try a rewatch too. I don't remember Kitt getting any more or less queeny - maybe I just never noticed. I do remember (and I mentioned this in some of my discussions with Sara) that after the 1st season Kitt stopped ragging on Michael about all his girlfriends. He seemed much more jealous and bitchy in the 1st season. I don't think I even found that fic about Michael trying to make out with the car. Is it supposed to be funny? I think it would take a seriously skillful writer to get me into a fic where Michael is actually turned on by the car - I know he thinks the car is great, but sexually attracted to it? That might be going a little to far for me. But I'd give it a shot. Again - try reading Animism if you haven't already. I can send it if you can't find it.

I never read the BttF novel. I know I could probably get it used cheap on Amazon, but I like the idea of running across it in a second hand store. Also, even though I thoroughly expect that it's dreadful, I'm sure I'll still manage to be very disappointed by it. Are there any good bits at all in it? Why is Doc less likable? Either way, I can see him getting pranked by kids no matter what the adults think of him. Which makes me think that maybe Marty keeps their friendship a secret. I agree with you about Jennifer - she seems familiar with him, but doesn't seem like she spends a lot of time around him.

I wonder how much of Hill Valley really knows about Doc's and Marty's friendship. Do they go out in public together? Doc probably doesn't talk about it to anyone because he probably doesn't talk to anyone, but does Marty? Does he tell his family? Does Doc call the house much looking for him? Jennifer knows, but do his other friends? Strickland knows, but is that because everyone knows, or because Marty inadvertently said something to him about it, maybe when Strickland had Marty in his office disciplining him for something. If it's a secret and no one really knows of its existence or at least extent, then it wouldn't be a problem for either of their reputations.