Convo / Argument with a friend.
Dear reader, your thoughts?
*Friend 2 claims his posts were to expose any of my illogical fallacies and thought it was fun to play semantics.*
ME:
This is unacceptable! Please read the link below and concern yourselves with the travesty that is still occurring in Haiti. We mustn't forget!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/03/16/world/AP-CB-Haiti-Earthquake.html
FRIEND 1:
Dear brother, thank you for posting this. I am brought to tears and a holy anger. My prayers are going up right now for God to work miracles for these women and children, that he would protect them, that many more authorities would take this seriously and do something, and that many more would be brought to their knees to pray for this situation...May God rain down his grace and justice, in supernatural ways of protection and through the response of people!
-- Lord Have mercy...have mercy...*cries*. Thanks to you...I'm spreading the word too.
FRIEND 2:
Unfortunately, I feel unsurprised by something like this. First, Haiti dedicated itself to Satan, so it seems and major disaster on any level is inevitable. However, it is in all of these horrific events that people find their desperation for security and can find hope in the Truth of Christianity (even the Protestants will start them in the right direction). Prayer is all nice and good, but remember evil is a part of this world that can be bent to glorify God. Yes, even rape can lead to God's glory, just read "Woman Thou Art Loosed."
ME:
Thanks Friend 1. I first found the link on twitter from the former vocalist in Haste the Day (who is the current vocalist for Trenches -- good band). I was hoping news about this would spread so that progress and action can be made.
Friend 2, your response sounds much like the guy from the 700 Club, but in the wise words of Jon Stewart from the Daily Show, "now is not the time [to simply say 'saw that coming']." Stewart referred to the Bible to offer comfort for the Haiti tragedies, and he is right. While i understand good things often shine through the bad and God can make good out of anything, it is often by His people's petitions -- which means prayer is more than nice and good, it's necessary at the least.
What steps would you recommend we as Christians, or we as Americans and fellow human beings, should take on the matter?
FRIEND 2:
While Comedy Central and Jon Stewart are the paragons of Christian theology, I am sure their interpretation does not negate a good opportunity for change in Haiti. However, we act like a country that literally has nothing and is experiencing economic collapse every day, and is experiencing some major loss from this earthquake. That is like saying an AIDS victim is dying of the flu, so donate money for a cure. I mean to say death is inevitable.
With that said, I now ask you, What steps would you recommend we as Christians, or we as Americans and fellow human beings, should take on the matter pertaining to the daily crises of illness, starvation, and disaster survival in our own country. But, the Haiti fad will die like the New Orleans fad died. It is a matter of time.
ME:
I have not once seen an American parade around acting like he had nothing. Our responses to global crisis has never been on the foundation that we as Americans have nothing. Rather, it is a communal, brotherly response in which we realize we have more than enough to support ourselves and still give to those in need. Even in our tightened economic state we are able to give and support, and when money is not an option, the priceless act of praying always is -- because there is power in praying for all the power rests in Christ whom listens. If nothing else, we can pray. It is free to pray, yet powerful, and often full of compassion. To see one pray for another is to witness compassion. And to pray is to communicate with the only one capable of handling the universe and more.
Now, besides our economic recession you mentioned that death is "inevitable," so why help? Should we not attempt to help Haiti because they were born outside of the U.S. and into a country that generations ago sold their souls? How can any change take place if no outside influence steps into Haiti with helping hands so that our brothers and sisters, though not of our paternal mother but of our global one, can eventually gain strength from tragedy and begin to support themselves? Besides, from a Christian stand point, it is Christ-like to see and act beyond boundaries, whether it be race, religion, gender, class, etc.
I'm merely responding to the points i disagree with in what you're saying, as well as any questions you pose. To find no connection in this response, as you found no connection in our conversation on facebook chat, is for you to forget what you have said and therefore not follow what i'm saying.
Whether Jon Stewart is a Christian or not, theologian or not, i still agree with his response to the 700 Club guy. Instead of saying "told you ya had it coming," we should be saying "i can help by giving." Christians aren't always right, and non-Christians aren't always wrong. When a person is right, they are right, regardless of what kind person they are. To say Jon Stewart is a paragon of Christian theology, whether sarcastic or not, is to misunderstand my point that it takes no measure of "truth of Christianity" to show compassion (and therefore giving support) for a hurting people. I used Jon Stewart specifically because he is not a paragon of the Christian faith, yet he gets it -- when an acclaimed Christian man (700 Club guy) shows no compassion in another's crisis, it is right of anyone who understands Christianity to say "wait a minute, isn't that a foundation for your beliefs, yet you show no evidence of it?" Jon Stewart simply called him out, thereby calling all Christians out, to suggest we all analyze ourselves if we cannot do as our faith describes to us to do.
You also said "the Haiti fad will die...it is a matter of time." Bingo. You have hit on the very reason i posted this link. While i wouldn't call this a fad, i know all too well that Americans have moved on too quickly without finding more ways of helping. So you've been praying? Continue to do so. Share with one another any new information on the progress, or collapse, of Haiti. Purposefully look online, on news television, in conversation, for info on Haiti, because to do so is to refuse to forget. There is always hope if one does not forget or chooses to move on. Have we given as much money as our budget permits? Have we gone to politics, saying this town/county/state/nation will send helping hands, material for shelter, food and water? We have not exhausted the help we can give, and by not caring or choosing to neglect is to say "you are no longer important to me. I don't care whether my continued help would've kept you alive or if my apathy lets you die."
FRIEND 2:
You could have said, "I feel that as Christ embodied social justice as his major function of spreading his word, I too feel that social justice is key in matters like this."
The sad part is while you seek to draw attention to what some describe as horrific, what about all they other people in crisis in the United States that are in poverty, going through violence, rape, etc. that get no media attention. To me, it seems you are acting like someone caught in a fad. If the news media had just focused on the collapsing educational system in Detroit, it seems that you would be posting notices about Detroit and forgetting all about Haiti. For example, New Orleans is still suffering to get back on its feet and you make no mention about them.
My point is simple. People suffer everyday. The media chooses to focus where there is money to be made. Those influenced by media focus on the one event that media examines and becomes passionate about the one event. Try remembering that disaster is a part of life and prayer for Haiti should naturally come as part of the regular prayer service for the world. So in this manner, Jon Stewart makes a mockery of the truth by trying to pretend to have insight into the faith when he mocks the faith itself. Haiti is just a fad and so will the next world disaster be, and the one after that. Reminding all that Haiti is one of the many opportunities to be a Christian is more accurate. In other words, there is no surprise what happaned to Haiti, but the world still turns on it's axis and they will recover. And they will get all the help they need.
ME:
You have made your point and i thought you knew me better than that. Since when do i follow fads? Why would now be any different? Don't you see my concern is legitimate? Why then do you blatantly attempt to suffocate my compassion? My response is simple. Your comments are hindering my progress and my patience. Please either disagree away from this post, or agree to concern yourself with the matter at hand and add encouragement, if nothing else.
I care for people equally, globally and locally. The link i posted found its way to me and i could not help but feel my heart be crushed at the news i heard.
It is in having at least some kind of understanding about communication and leadership that i chose to specifically spread the word about the ongoing situation with Haiti. In this single post, it would have been unwise, as in unproductive, to ask others to concern themselves with a boatload of the world's problems. Whether by inability or denial to choose to care and support many problems at a time, it is the right choice for me to remind my friends that the Haiti tragedy is not over just because the news reports it less. (The very fact that i watch tv during my free time but see less of the Haiti issue gives evidence that my concern goes beyond fad.) If some of my friends gave support in prayer, blood, food, water, etc then i remind them that now a social collapse will take place if we move on too quickly. And for my friends who have been unaware or thus far unable to help, then i remind them now is the time to try if you can, or tomorrow, or the next day and so on. Haiti's social and domestic life is gruesome, worse than ever, and i will not become a stickler by saying "so what, my own community has its problems too." I am no better than the rapist in Haiti if i say this, because not only are the crimes currently taking place on that island unacceptable, but such a response to choose to not look past my own nose or reach out my hand, THAT TOO IS UNACCEPTABLE.
Sorry if i sound upset (intentional) or offended you (accidental).
FRIEND 2:
Conviction is found in controversy. If I have pushed you to the limit of tolerance, it is for you to find words and heart that transcends the typical "Christianese" that warps the meaning of the Faith. And Jon Stewart, no matter the statement is still a dangerous source.
Also, can we place a bet on the duration of the Haiti fad?
ME:
No. I don't treat it as a fad. The situation in Haiti deeply frightens me, and i hope that i won't too soon forget.
FRIEND 2:
No bets then, okay. i am sorry. Haiti is a people group that needs help like anyone.
The end.
So was anyone else surprised by the ending of Friend 2? I went the entire time during our conversation not realizing his agenda had nothing to do with my post. Now i know that he had some sort of problem with me singling out the ongoing tragedies in Haiti without adding "and don't forget the rest of the world." Come to find out, his agenda was about illogical fallacy and to keep a mind for the globe (did anyone else notice his emphasis on locality and NOT globally?), not just media centered news stories.
With this, i put an end to such an atrocious conversation...
*Friend 2 claims his posts were to expose any of my illogical fallacies and thought it was fun to play semantics.*
ME:
This is unacceptable! Please read the link below and concern yourselves with the travesty that is still occurring in Haiti. We mustn't forget!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/03/16/world/AP-CB-Haiti-Earthquake.html
FRIEND 1:
Dear brother, thank you for posting this. I am brought to tears and a holy anger. My prayers are going up right now for God to work miracles for these women and children, that he would protect them, that many more authorities would take this seriously and do something, and that many more would be brought to their knees to pray for this situation...May God rain down his grace and justice, in supernatural ways of protection and through the response of people!
-- Lord Have mercy...have mercy...*cries*. Thanks to you...I'm spreading the word too.
FRIEND 2:
Unfortunately, I feel unsurprised by something like this. First, Haiti dedicated itself to Satan, so it seems and major disaster on any level is inevitable. However, it is in all of these horrific events that people find their desperation for security and can find hope in the Truth of Christianity (even the Protestants will start them in the right direction). Prayer is all nice and good, but remember evil is a part of this world that can be bent to glorify God. Yes, even rape can lead to God's glory, just read "Woman Thou Art Loosed."
ME:
Thanks Friend 1. I first found the link on twitter from the former vocalist in Haste the Day (who is the current vocalist for Trenches -- good band). I was hoping news about this would spread so that progress and action can be made.
Friend 2, your response sounds much like the guy from the 700 Club, but in the wise words of Jon Stewart from the Daily Show, "now is not the time [to simply say 'saw that coming']." Stewart referred to the Bible to offer comfort for the Haiti tragedies, and he is right. While i understand good things often shine through the bad and God can make good out of anything, it is often by His people's petitions -- which means prayer is more than nice and good, it's necessary at the least.
What steps would you recommend we as Christians, or we as Americans and fellow human beings, should take on the matter?
FRIEND 2:
While Comedy Central and Jon Stewart are the paragons of Christian theology, I am sure their interpretation does not negate a good opportunity for change in Haiti. However, we act like a country that literally has nothing and is experiencing economic collapse every day, and is experiencing some major loss from this earthquake. That is like saying an AIDS victim is dying of the flu, so donate money for a cure. I mean to say death is inevitable.
With that said, I now ask you, What steps would you recommend we as Christians, or we as Americans and fellow human beings, should take on the matter pertaining to the daily crises of illness, starvation, and disaster survival in our own country. But, the Haiti fad will die like the New Orleans fad died. It is a matter of time.
ME:
I have not once seen an American parade around acting like he had nothing. Our responses to global crisis has never been on the foundation that we as Americans have nothing. Rather, it is a communal, brotherly response in which we realize we have more than enough to support ourselves and still give to those in need. Even in our tightened economic state we are able to give and support, and when money is not an option, the priceless act of praying always is -- because there is power in praying for all the power rests in Christ whom listens. If nothing else, we can pray. It is free to pray, yet powerful, and often full of compassion. To see one pray for another is to witness compassion. And to pray is to communicate with the only one capable of handling the universe and more.
Now, besides our economic recession you mentioned that death is "inevitable," so why help? Should we not attempt to help Haiti because they were born outside of the U.S. and into a country that generations ago sold their souls? How can any change take place if no outside influence steps into Haiti with helping hands so that our brothers and sisters, though not of our paternal mother but of our global one, can eventually gain strength from tragedy and begin to support themselves? Besides, from a Christian stand point, it is Christ-like to see and act beyond boundaries, whether it be race, religion, gender, class, etc.
I'm merely responding to the points i disagree with in what you're saying, as well as any questions you pose. To find no connection in this response, as you found no connection in our conversation on facebook chat, is for you to forget what you have said and therefore not follow what i'm saying.
Whether Jon Stewart is a Christian or not, theologian or not, i still agree with his response to the 700 Club guy. Instead of saying "told you ya had it coming," we should be saying "i can help by giving." Christians aren't always right, and non-Christians aren't always wrong. When a person is right, they are right, regardless of what kind person they are. To say Jon Stewart is a paragon of Christian theology, whether sarcastic or not, is to misunderstand my point that it takes no measure of "truth of Christianity" to show compassion (and therefore giving support) for a hurting people. I used Jon Stewart specifically because he is not a paragon of the Christian faith, yet he gets it -- when an acclaimed Christian man (700 Club guy) shows no compassion in another's crisis, it is right of anyone who understands Christianity to say "wait a minute, isn't that a foundation for your beliefs, yet you show no evidence of it?" Jon Stewart simply called him out, thereby calling all Christians out, to suggest we all analyze ourselves if we cannot do as our faith describes to us to do.
You also said "the Haiti fad will die...it is a matter of time." Bingo. You have hit on the very reason i posted this link. While i wouldn't call this a fad, i know all too well that Americans have moved on too quickly without finding more ways of helping. So you've been praying? Continue to do so. Share with one another any new information on the progress, or collapse, of Haiti. Purposefully look online, on news television, in conversation, for info on Haiti, because to do so is to refuse to forget. There is always hope if one does not forget or chooses to move on. Have we given as much money as our budget permits? Have we gone to politics, saying this town/county/state/nation will send helping hands, material for shelter, food and water? We have not exhausted the help we can give, and by not caring or choosing to neglect is to say "you are no longer important to me. I don't care whether my continued help would've kept you alive or if my apathy lets you die."
FRIEND 2:
You could have said, "I feel that as Christ embodied social justice as his major function of spreading his word, I too feel that social justice is key in matters like this."
The sad part is while you seek to draw attention to what some describe as horrific, what about all they other people in crisis in the United States that are in poverty, going through violence, rape, etc. that get no media attention. To me, it seems you are acting like someone caught in a fad. If the news media had just focused on the collapsing educational system in Detroit, it seems that you would be posting notices about Detroit and forgetting all about Haiti. For example, New Orleans is still suffering to get back on its feet and you make no mention about them.
My point is simple. People suffer everyday. The media chooses to focus where there is money to be made. Those influenced by media focus on the one event that media examines and becomes passionate about the one event. Try remembering that disaster is a part of life and prayer for Haiti should naturally come as part of the regular prayer service for the world. So in this manner, Jon Stewart makes a mockery of the truth by trying to pretend to have insight into the faith when he mocks the faith itself. Haiti is just a fad and so will the next world disaster be, and the one after that. Reminding all that Haiti is one of the many opportunities to be a Christian is more accurate. In other words, there is no surprise what happaned to Haiti, but the world still turns on it's axis and they will recover. And they will get all the help they need.
ME:
You have made your point and i thought you knew me better than that. Since when do i follow fads? Why would now be any different? Don't you see my concern is legitimate? Why then do you blatantly attempt to suffocate my compassion? My response is simple. Your comments are hindering my progress and my patience. Please either disagree away from this post, or agree to concern yourself with the matter at hand and add encouragement, if nothing else.
I care for people equally, globally and locally. The link i posted found its way to me and i could not help but feel my heart be crushed at the news i heard.
It is in having at least some kind of understanding about communication and leadership that i chose to specifically spread the word about the ongoing situation with Haiti. In this single post, it would have been unwise, as in unproductive, to ask others to concern themselves with a boatload of the world's problems. Whether by inability or denial to choose to care and support many problems at a time, it is the right choice for me to remind my friends that the Haiti tragedy is not over just because the news reports it less. (The very fact that i watch tv during my free time but see less of the Haiti issue gives evidence that my concern goes beyond fad.) If some of my friends gave support in prayer, blood, food, water, etc then i remind them that now a social collapse will take place if we move on too quickly. And for my friends who have been unaware or thus far unable to help, then i remind them now is the time to try if you can, or tomorrow, or the next day and so on. Haiti's social and domestic life is gruesome, worse than ever, and i will not become a stickler by saying "so what, my own community has its problems too." I am no better than the rapist in Haiti if i say this, because not only are the crimes currently taking place on that island unacceptable, but such a response to choose to not look past my own nose or reach out my hand, THAT TOO IS UNACCEPTABLE.
Sorry if i sound upset (intentional) or offended you (accidental).
FRIEND 2:
Conviction is found in controversy. If I have pushed you to the limit of tolerance, it is for you to find words and heart that transcends the typical "Christianese" that warps the meaning of the Faith. And Jon Stewart, no matter the statement is still a dangerous source.
Also, can we place a bet on the duration of the Haiti fad?
ME:
No. I don't treat it as a fad. The situation in Haiti deeply frightens me, and i hope that i won't too soon forget.
FRIEND 2:
No bets then, okay. i am sorry. Haiti is a people group that needs help like anyone.
The end.
So was anyone else surprised by the ending of Friend 2? I went the entire time during our conversation not realizing his agenda had nothing to do with my post. Now i know that he had some sort of problem with me singling out the ongoing tragedies in Haiti without adding "and don't forget the rest of the world." Come to find out, his agenda was about illogical fallacy and to keep a mind for the globe (did anyone else notice his emphasis on locality and NOT globally?), not just media centered news stories.
With this, i put an end to such an atrocious conversation...